Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Logic-is-your-friend]

In my view, Remco robbed half of the team of their duties / moment of glory: Remco effectively determined the race between km 180 and km 125, and further on between km 90 and km 25.
The Belgian team had other guys for that, but with Remco on the front, they had to stay in place and couldn't even show if they had legs. You saw e.g. Lampaert doing his job by pulling hard in the local rounds before the 2nd Flandrien circuit (the moment in the race they got rid of Ewan and some other sprinters). At that moment, Teuns indicated that they were drilling it too hard on the front. Lots of things went wrong in the Belgian team, but if you blame riders for not having legs, you can as well blame riders who had excellent legs and wasted all that energy for unnecessary moves...

You say it very well: "If Evenepoel had been used as a reserve leader..."
Think about it: "If Evenepoel rode the race as a reserve leader..." a role that was complementary to his job before the start: covering dangerous moves. But Remco himself choose not only to to his job, but he also choose to do all kinds of jobs he wasn't supposed to do.

Not sure if jokepost or not.

Remco robbed the other Belgians to show they had good legs... lolwut? The other Belgians thought the tempo was too high? Then why the *** did they initialize the chase on Remco themselves? Why didn't they just sit back and let another team do that? Or is Evenepoel to blame for their sudden loss of intelligence and tactical sense as well? In fact, the best thing to come of all this is a meme that has started to grow on social media: blame Evenepoel. Be it cycling, politics or environment... i'm sure it's somehow Remco's fault.

I don't really think initial comments from Vantourenhout after the race are a great indicator as he would probably be very reluctant to instantly start a flame war and would have wanted to keep any criticisms at each other as confined as possible as his ass could be on the line

He was talking to Pauwels in the team car during the race. I'm not sure he's thinking about the little camera on the dashboard at that time. He didn't seem to be thinking about it when he was saying "is this a joke or something". So i have no reason to believe he was holding back when Evenepoel pulled off the front and he complimented him for his job.

 

[Netserk]

Not sure if jokepost or not.

Remco robbed the other Belgians to show they had good legs... lolwut? The other Belgians thought the tempo was too high? Then why the *** did they initialize the chase on Remco themselves? Why didn't they just sit back and let another team do that? Or is Evenepoel to blame for their sudden loss of intelligence and tactical sense as well? In fact, the best thing to come of all this is a meme that has started to grow on social media: blame Evenepoel. Be it cycling, politics or environment... i'm sure it's somehow Remco's fault.


He was talking to Pauwels in the team car during the race. I'm not sure he's thinking about the little camera on the dashboard at that time. He didn't seem to be thinking about it when he was saying "is this a joke or something". So i have no reason to believe he was holding back when Evenepoel pulled off the front and he complimented him for his job.

Given how Belgium rode that day, there's enough blame for everyone. I'd order it as: National coach > Evenepoel > Van Aert. In any case, it's clear that communication went bad and that there wasn't a shared clear idea of how they should race.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

Given how Belgium rode that day, there's enough blame for everyone. I'd order it as: National coach > Evenepoel > Van Aert. In any case, it's clear that communication went bad and that there wasn't a shared clear idea of how they should race.

Hmm, it might have all started when Van Aert demanded god status.

 

[Volderke]

Not sure if jokepost or not.

It was a post to creep under the skin of a super-sensitive Remco fanboy. It worked.

if you cared to read some further comments before you impulsively and frantically pushed the 'post-reply' button (*), you would see I said everybody made mistakes, Remco as well as the coach and other riders.

(*) but you didn't

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

It was a post to creep under the skin of a super-sensitive Remco fanboy. It worked.

if you cared to read some further comments before you impulsively and frantically pushed the 'post-reply' button (*), you would see I said everybody made mistakes, Remco as well as the coach and other riders.

(*) but you didn't

So, it was a jokepost. Thanks.

 

[Volderke]

So, it was a jokepost. Thanks.

I fear you either are missing some reading comprehension, or you just try to fool yourself:

My post was not a jokepost. Remco made mistakes. Hard to read, but it is what it is, and if you cared to read everything I wrote: I put it into context (*). The only joke I made is that you are (willfully) ignoring that context, in a (desperate? impulsive? bad day at work?) attempt to ridicule my opinion.

(*) to make it easy for people that are too lazy to read or understand the context provided in my previous posts: Remco made mistakes, but he's not the only one. And some of Remco's mistakes can be easily excused by bigger mistakes made by Vanthourenhout, WvA,...
If you try to turn it into suggesting that I blame Evenepoel for everything that went wrong, I fear that won't work.

 

[Red Rick]

Not sure what mistakes WvA made that are of similar magnitude in that race?

 

[KZD]

Not sure what mistakes WvA made that are of similar magnitude in that race?

WvA's biggest mistake was that he had no legs and didn't tell that in time

 

[Valanga]

Given how Belgium rode that day, there's enough blame for everyone. I'd order it as: National coach > Evenepoel > Van Aert. In any case, it's clear that communication went bad and that there wasn't a shared clear idea of how they should race.

Objectively true perhaps, but .. given Van Aert was the assigned leader, is not the junior anymore and can be expected to be the wiser of the two based on age and rank, I'd put him in front of Evenepoel.
It was up to him to guide the others.
Similarly with this throwing mud in the media ... you can kind of forgive Remco for being young and naive with his statements perhaps, I'd expect Van Aert to be the bigger man, call Remco, and talk it out.

 

[Extinction]

Not sure what mistakes WvA made that are of similar magnitude in that race?

Being the exclusive team leader

 

[red_flanders]

Given how Belgium rode that day, there's enough blame for everyone. I'd order it as: National coach > Evenepoel > Van Aert. In any case, it's clear that communication went bad and that there wasn't a shared clear idea of how they should race.

Completely agree there's blame to go around but assigning more blame to the guy who was given 0 chance to win than the guy who didn't have the goods is a head-scratcher. Evenepoel did some weird stuff, but it had zero to do with them not winning. That was all on idiotic tactics.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I fear you either are missing some reading comprehension, or you just try to fool yourself:

My post was not a jokepost. Remco made mistakes. Hard to read, but it is what it is, and if you cared to read everything I wrote: I put it into context (*). The only joke I made is that you are (willfully) ignoring that context, in a (desperate? impulsive? bad day at work?) attempt to ridicule my opinion.

(*) to make it easy for people that are too lazy to read or understand the context provided in my previous posts: Remco made mistakes, but he's not the only one. And some of Remco's mistakes can be easily excused by bigger mistakes made by Vanthourenhout, WvA,...
If you try to turn it into suggesting that I blame Evenepoel for everything that went wrong, I fear that won't work.

I read your other posts. I didn't say they were jokeposts, just the one. If part of your argument is that he robbed the others of showing themselves, there's not much else to say about that, is there.

 

[Extinction]

Given how Belgium rode that day, there's enough blame for everyone. I'd order it as: National coach > Evenepoel > Van Aert. In any case, it's clear that communication went bad and that there wasn't a shared clear idea of how they should race.

Explain how Evenepoel's riding was partly to blame for team Belgium's debacle. I don't see it as a factor. His wings were clipped when told he would not be allowed to ride for the win and given a remissive role, which he carried out with zeal. But the problem wasn't how he interpreted the role, but the role iteslf. And only the national coach and Van Aert are to blame for that. Worse still was that Wout failed to communicate his less than stellar sensations during the race, resulting in any hope for Belgium to change strategy going up in smoke.

 

[Volderke]

Not sure what mistakes WvA made that are of similar magnitude in that race?

The fact he wanted the 'all for WvA' strategy effectively killed alternative strategies and discusions about those strategies before the race.

It was fixed in everybody's heads that everything in the race was a function of getting WvA the victory.

Even Remco, after he went rogue in the first half of the race, effectively committed to the task he was given, so in the head of the coach, all was good.
The problem is, when you have such a big target on your back as WvA had, and when you are a team, a coach,... all working for that one goal, you behave like rabbits in a lightbox.

The moment Alaphilippe split the pack, you could already feel that WvA was very nervous and too eager to close the gap to Evenepoel himself. He was, at that moment, more willing to get rid of some riders who missed the split (and thereby sacrificing 3 team mates in that group), than he was sensing the danger in the guys he was towing along to Evenepoel. Letting Evenepoel burn himself down simplified things for WvA, but only if he had the legs, and the attack of Alaphilippe with Colbrelli already laid bare that WvA was going to be weak in the finale, without support. So why he didn't slow Evenepoel down a bit so he could work a bit longer, I don't know, but all of that is easy in hindsight: While WvA must have felt Alaphilippe was strong, he probably thought that, deep in the finale, if his own legs were hurting, others' legs must hurt as well.

If only Remco didn't go with that first attack, and because of that, lasted deeper into the finale, keeping more attacks under control, he could have ridden a top 10 or even a podium, and he would have had every right to say he had the legs to win. Now it sounds hollow with that unnecessary move before halfway, and with his last superhard pull that could have been a bit longer and less intense. And it rubs salt into the wounds of WvA, because Remco made it sound, to the general audience, that WvA wasn't a worthy team leader, while Remco himself did some questionable things as well in this race. As they say: who lives in a glass house should not throw stones.

 

[Volderke]

I read your other posts. I didn't say they were jokeposts, just the one. If part of your argument is that he robbed the others of showing themselves, there's not much else to say about that, is there.

Well, some here suggest that some riders in the team weren't visible or riding well (or missed the split etc.). But some of those rider's roles were somewhere in the kilometers when Remco was in the breakaway. And the moment Alaphilippe forced it, no more than 20 (?) riders were in that group, so you can't really expect more than 3 Belgians in that group. So that's why I said Remco took away their moment to shine (by covering attacks). Fact is that Remco rode very long before the peloton, exactly because he wasn't covering attacks, but he was also taking pulls and thus kept the attacks going for a long time. You could argue that this burnt the Italian team (who felt they had to chase), but in a 'normal' scenario, one attack would be covered by e.g. Teuns (who wouldn't pull, so the attack wouldn't last long), next attack would be covered by Lampaert, etcetera.

 

[Extinction]

Well, some here suggest that some riders in the team weren't visible or riding well (or missed the split etc.). But some of those rider's roles were somewhere in the kilometers when Remco was in the breakaway. And the moment Alaphilippe forced it, no more than 20 (?) riders were in that group, so you can't really expect more than 3 Belgians in that group. So that's why I said Remco took away their moment to shine (by covering attacks). Fact is that Remco rode very long before the peloton, exactly because he wasn't covering attacks, but he was also taking pulls and thus kept the attacks going for a long time. You could argue that this burnt the Italian team (who felt they had to chase), but in a 'normal' scenario, one attack would be covered by e.g. Teuns (who wouldn't pull, so the attack wouldn't last long), next attack would be covered by Lampaert, etcetera.

I thought, however, Remco was assigned to cover early attacks.

 

[Volderke]

I thought, however, Remco was assigned to cover early attacks.

imho (and based on the reaction from the coach, and based on some common sense about how long the race still was), not that early.

In any way, he can show who's the boss tomorrow in Lombardia.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I'm competing with the best in the world, but still feel like I'm two steps below guys like Roglic and Pogacar.

- Remco Evenepoel

"Ik doe mee met de besten van de wereld, maar Roglic staat nog twee trappen hoger" | sporza

Een dag voor de Ronde van Lombardije heeft Remco Evenepoel nog een keer vooruitgeblikt naar de laatste klassieker van het wielerseizoen. Het 21-jarige goudhaantje van Deceuninck-Quick Step heeft nog een rekening openstaan in Italië. "Maar die val van vorig jaar is geen belangrijke factor meer in...

sporza-be.translate.goog

 

[Lequack]

Interview with Roglic, where he also speaks about WvA and Evenepoel (translation in comments):

Page 186 - Teams & Riders - Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives

Page 186 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

forum.cyclingnews.com

Primoz Roglic staat als grote topfavoriet aan de start van Ronde van Lombardije: “Soms heb ik medelijden met Evenepoel en Van Aert”

Wat kan Primoz Roglic (31) niet? De jongste tweeënhalve maand werd hij achtereenvolgens olympisch kampioen tijdrijden, won hij de Vuelta en was hij de beste in twee Italiaanse semiklassiekers. Ruim voldoende om hem tot de grote favoriet voor de Ronde van Lombardije te bombarderen. Al weet hij nu...

www.nieuwsblad.be

 

[BlueRoads]

I think this goes back to the Olympics, when van Aert actually was the best rider, but lost the race to Carapaz because he needed to close every move by himself, nobody was working with him, and he didn't have teammates in the final anymore. No matter how strong he is, he simply cannot do it all himself.
So, I think it wasn't a good idea from van Aert to publically claim leadership before this year's worlds, but it can be understood from that background. He must have felt super strong after his Tour wins and his Olympics and I thought he was over-strong, too, and I wasn't the only one - we can now say "how could he claim he should be the sole leader", but although I don't think it was the best strategy, it was far from absurd. A very strong, versatile one-day racer who has an incredible sprint, in short, one of the two or three riders in the world with probably the best profile for this course, looking to be in the prime and form of his life, well... yes, there's this other super-strong guy, but we all agree that he doesn't have the perfect profile for this route, and while he has worked for others before, at least van Aert (and some others) is convinced that Evenepoel didn't do everything for him in the Olympics but instead for his own reputation, although he didn't have a chance to win himself. (I didn't see it that way at the time, I thought Evenepoel simply overestimated himself and had a wrong strategy, but what if it's true, and Evenepoel didn't ride for van Aert that day but for himself, without having a chance...?)

So, within the team it is agreed that Evenepoel is selected, but only if now he sticks to the plan and works for van Aert. Evenepoel, despite this, pretends he hasn't understood the strategy and gives it one last try, he asks the coach in private if there is really no chance to go for his own chance, if it arises. The coach says no. Evenepoel is angry - because it isn't the best strategy and because Evenepoel likes his own glory. Then in the race he races so that he doesn't openly go against the team orders - but so that it doesn't help the team much either, in second thought, which Evenepoel doesn't care much about, because he mostly cares about himself (yes, like van Aert, you might say).
Van Aert has immense pressure on that day. But unfortunately after an already hard race, when the first real attack starts, he recognizes he doesn't have good legs on the day. But can he now, after claiming leadership, after his team already having worked hard for him just say "sorry, don't have the legs today?" He hopes it will get better. He still hopes for and expects a sprint and he thinks he can still win the sprint, because he's simply the best sprinter from the riders who are left. So only when it gets clear he really doesn't have the legs and the attacks continue, he tells it to his team, but that's really late. Stuyven could have been saved more had he told it earlier.
Van Aert plays no role in the final.

Then after the race he hears Evenepoel stating that he, Remco, had the legs to win the worlds, and that yes, the strategy of the team wasn't good.
Van Aert thinks something like "I knew he'd be backstabbing me, he agreed to support me, but he didn't do everything he could to do that again, and after I failed he doesn't support me in public, but instead insinuates he should have gotten the freedom to go for the win."

That's the way I see it now. Did van Aert behave perfectly? Certainly not. Is his behaviour understandable and at least not worse than Evenepoels? To me, absolutely.

 

[noob]

Most riders his age are just entering pro racing and are not criticized by half the world at every turn because they aren't competitors at that level. He is in fact closer in age, to the Van Aert who got disqualified for a false start, got so furious that after yelling and raving, he snuck his bike back onto the course and started to race regardless of officials telling him not to, than he is to the Van Aert who failed to inform his team that he had bad legs two weeks ago.

Where can I watch a younger Van Aert doing this? Definitely want to see that

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Where can I watch a younger Van Aert doing this? Definitely want to see that

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS9w2AkOi9A

 

[noob]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS9w2AkOi9A

That's how I have envisioned him. That's not a meltdown, that's ego. And that's what I have "felt" from him. Cold, self absorbed ego. I am no longer sure that is the whole story (it never is), but it's how he has come off through the screen to me.

I am glad I have seen other things from him this past week to counter that impression, because it's painful to think that ill about someone. I don't think I'll about him anymore.

I have no idé what he's talking about though as it's Flemish. So my impression of him is made up from subtle hints and those can always be misread or misinterpreted. <3

 

[Barkintheeye]

How old was WvA at that race? One should not expect mature behavior from a 15 year old fully pumped up by adrenaline. Hopefully, after the race his coach told him to get a grip and behave should he want to continue on the path as a professional athlete.

The WvA of today knows how to behave properly. Watch the post Paris-Roubaix interview. No excuses there.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

How old was WvA at that race? One should not expect mature behavior from a 15 year old fully pumped up by adrenaline. Hopefully, after the race his coach told him to get a grip and behave should he want to continue on the path as a professional athlete.

The WvA of today knows how to behave properly. Watch the post Paris-Roubaix interview. No excuses there.

If only someone could calculate the difference between 2014 and now. But who?