Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Savant12]

Or Remco ups his game even further and in the saddle just rides everybody off his wheel, wins the stage and seals it in the TTs.

Then we really need to take it to another part of the forum.

 

[Savant12]

You underestimate how effective diesel climbing is

You seem to be under the impression that only Remco can do it.

 

[Extinction]

You seem to be under the impression that only Remco can do it.

I don't think so, however, it seems he is fully back on track from the accident. Winning Liege as he did suggested so, winning the Vuelta is confirmation. And he will continue to improve. Still if Pogacar and Vingo are in top shape, as is to be expected, then it should really be an incredible war between them. As always it's going to boil down to sustained watts and require very big power indeed to ride those guys off the wheel. However, at the moment if there is any cyclist who can potentially get the job done, and I say potentially as it's not for sure, it's Remco Evenepoel.Yet Pogacar's emphatic win in Montreal reminds us that he truly is a cycling phenomenon and so it won't be easy to beat him.

 

[Extinction]

But can he do it over 3 weeks against the A Teams from Jumbo, UAE, & Ineos? That is thy question.

And we're gonna find out.

 

[houtdffan]

You seem to be under the impression that only Remco can do it.

Many other cyclists have done it. Indurain and Ullrich for starters. In fact, diesel climbing used to be how GTs were won, until organizers developed their wall fetish and only care about the steepest climbs available

 

[Big Doopie]

Let's not panic just yet. If he goes to the Tour, the team will be a lot better than it was now.

First of all one of the key helpers this Vuelta, Serry, got covid. Because of that, other guys had to start working a lot sooner. Serry can do in a hilly stage what Declerq can do on flat/cobbled stages. Ride a very high pace for a long time. If you look at yesterday's stage, you could see Van Wilder pulling the peloton with 150k to go. Well, not surprising he comes up short in the final. This team had Devenyns, whom i like, but he isn't the guy to do that kind of work. He can pull a few km in a hilly final, to lead out Alaphilippe, but he isn't the donkey that will drag you up a mountain or pull for 80k on the flat. Then Alaphilippe dropped out as well, leaving Evenepoel with basically only 3 fit doms. Cavagna, Vervaeke and Van Wilder.

Masnada tried his best, but the guy had an even worse year than Van Wilder and, well, he was borderline useless. Not out of ill will, just not in good enough shape. He went in the break a few times and did try to help Evenepoel dropping back, but i think it must have mainly been mental support more than anything else.

That said, i think both Masnada and Van Wilder will be a lot better next year, in case they can get a normal build-up towards the summer. Van Wilder wasn't bad, but rest assured he can do a lot better, and he will. Steels said of Van Wilder "What you're seeing now, is just his raw talent. He has had too many setbacks the past few years that have hindered his progress, so he still has a lot of development to go through." Unless they send him to the Giro instead, like they were planning on doing this year.

We know Masnada can do a lot better, and though he was pretty bad the past weeks, i really do get the impression that he gets along very well with Evenepoel and genuinely will try to help him, unlike he did with Almeida.

Then there is also Cattaneo, who could be a great asset in case they want to go for GC in the Tour. And then you have Hirt.

Assuming they all get in top shape, you have a rather decent team imho: Van Wilder, Masnada, Cattaneo, Hirt, Vervaeke & Serry for hilly/mountain stages.
With possibly Alaphilippe in case they can fit him in and obviously Declerq, Cavagna or Asgreen as well. There are also Honoré, Bagioli, Knox, Schmid & Vansevenant to pick from in case one of the others is sent to a different race or gets sick or injured. These aren't the guys that will help him up a MTF, but they are all capable of doing decent grunt work in hilly stages and the earlier sections in the mountain stages. Granted, they are lacking a Kuss or a Van Aert level dom, but then again that's also true for UAE.

Not panicking.

just willing to wait a year.

your list is all good. However, not a single one of those riders can I see helping Remco back up to Pog and Vingo on the Galibier for instance. None of those compare to the top dons at UAE or Jumbo. They will not be there near the end as Loulou was nowhere when Remco needed him in the last stage at Itzulia.

Remco would benefit greatly from having a few Almeidas. A rider who can diesel at a very high level for a long time, but just under Remco’s superstar diesel. Unfortunately, the only Almeida I know already flew the coop.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Not panicking.

just willing to wait a year.

your list is all good. However, not a single one of those riders can I see helping Remco back up to Pog and Vingo on the Galibier for instance. None of those compare to the top dons at UAE or Jumbo. They will not be there near the end as Loulou was nowhere when Remco needed him in the last stage at Itzulia.

Remco would benefit greatly from having a few Almeidas. A rider who can diesel at a very high level for a long time, but just under Remco’s superstar diesel. Unfortunately, the only Almeida I know already flew the coop.

Which UAE doms are you thinking of? Almeida? Maybe next year is a bit too soon but Van Wilder very much fits that profile. Other than Almeida -if you want to consider him a dom- i'm not seeing any guys that are going to be making a difference when the big boys are playing.

 

[jmdirt]

Congrats RE!

 

[Oldermanish]

In fairness Pantani was not in top form, but point taken. Pog is so explosive, but he can also sustain a high tempo as well, as for example when he crushed everyone in the Alpes last year. However, Ventoux last year also showed he can be ridden off the wheel too. I think Remco will need to be able to set so hard a pace that attacks are not possible. He did that at the Vuelta a couple of times, but Pog and Vingo are going to be harder nuts to crack than Mas.

Your reference points on Pogacar's slow days are all GT performances where he could be fatigued or just riding within himself. He won those Tours, too.
Prepping for a single day effort is not where he's shown any weakness for two years. He'll be marked and hard to beat.

 

[DNP-Old]

But can he do it over 3 weeks against the A Teams from Jumbo, UAE, & Ineos? That is thy question.

I'm not sure if this is a sarcastic comment, riding on the can he do it .... meme, but I'm going to reply regardless. You see, UAE is far from the benchmark. Despite their essentially unlimited funds UAE is and has for a very long time been terribly constructed. Matxin thinks throwing large sums of money at obvious talents equals good team, but other than super generational talent Pogacar (and Juanito) none of them have developed in any way, shape or form besides natural progression. The doms he does sign are, other than not good enough, very one dimensional. They are either B-tier climbers or B-tier time trialists, never a combination of the too. Exactly the type of rider that made Sky the pinnacle for a decade and what makes Jumbo the top dog currently. What did Matxin, the bald fraud, do this year? He went after Quintana with Kung and Van Baarle on the market, LOL.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Let's not panic just yet. If he goes to the Tour, the team will be a lot better than it was now.

First of all one of the key helpers this Vuelta, Serry, got covid. Because of that, other guys had to start working a lot sooner. Serry can do in a hilly stage what Declerq can do on flat/cobbled stages. Ride a very high pace for a long time. If you look at yesterday's stage, you could see Van Wilder pulling the peloton with 150k to go. Well, not surprising he comes up short in the final. This team had Devenyns, whom i like, but he isn't the guy to do that kind of work. He can pull a few km in a hilly final, to lead out Alaphilippe, but he isn't the donkey that will drag you up a mountain or pull for 80k on the flat. Then Alaphilippe dropped out as well, leaving Evenepoel with basically only 3 fit doms. Cavagna, Vervaeke and Van Wilder.

Masnada tried his best, but the guy had an even worse year than Van Wilder and, well, he was borderline useless. Not out of ill will, just not in good enough shape. He went in the break a few times and did try to help Evenepoel dropping back, but i think it must have mainly been mental support more than anything else.

That said, i think both Masnada and Van Wilder will be a lot better next year, in case they can get a normal build-up towards the summer. Van Wilder wasn't bad, but rest assured he can do a lot better, and he will. Steels said of Van Wilder "What you're seeing now, is just his raw talent. He has had too many setbacks the past few years that have hindered his progress, so he still has a lot of development to go through." Unless they send him to the Giro instead, like they were planning on doing this year.

We know Masnada can do a lot better, and though he was pretty bad the past weeks, i really do get the impression that he gets along very well with Evenepoel and genuinely will try to help him, unlike he did with Almeida.

Then there is also Cattaneo, who could be a great asset in case they want to go for GC in the Tour. And then you have Hirt.

Assuming they all get in top shape, you have a rather decent team imho: Van Wilder, Masnada, Cattaneo, Hirt, Vervaeke & Serry for hilly/mountain stages.
With possibly Alaphilippe in case they can fit him in and obviously Declerq, Cavagna or Asgreen as well. There are also Honoré, Bagioli, Knox, Schmid & Vansevenant to pick from in case one of the others is sent to a different race or gets sick or injured. These aren't the guys that will help him up a MTF, but they are all capable of doing decent grunt work in hilly stages and the earlier sections in the mountain stages. Granted, they are lacking a Kuss or a Van Aert level dom, but then again that's also true for UAE.

In case they can fit him in? Alaphilippe should be the first man on the team sheet!

 

[Extinction]

Your reference points on Pogacar's slow days are all GT performances where he could be fatigued or just riding within himself. He won those Tours, too.
Prepping for a single day effort is not where he's shown any weakness for two years. He'll be marked and hard to beat.

In fact, because my post was in response to speculation over Remco's ability to diesel his way back on terms to Pog accelleration and not giving Tadaj breathimg space to attack again. I pointed out that Pog has also shown staying power (but also weaker moments,like the second time on Ventoux last year), so it's up in the air whether or not will be able to take the punch out of him. Whatever the case, if both are in top for it should be one helluva battle. As far as one-day raced are comcerned, the Remco at Liege or San Sebastian vs a firing on all cilanders Pog, well, that's going to be a good fight too.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

In fairness Pantani was not in top form, but point taken. Pog is so explosive, but he can also sustain a high tempo as well, as for example when he crushed everyone in the Alpes last year. However, Ventoux last year also showed he can be ridden off the wheel too. I think Remco will need to be able to set so hard a pace that attacks are not possible. He did that at the Vuelta a couple of times, but Pog and Vingo are going to be harder nuts to crack than Mas.

Dieseling up the mountain with super-strong and explosive guys like Pog and Vinge on the wheel is a recipe for disaster - Remco will use up way more energy due to aero drag (which on 7-8% cols of the Tour is substantial) resulting in being dropped at some point by fresher and more explosive rivals. If anything he needs a super-strong dom to do the dirty job.

 

[OlavEH]

Many other cyclists have done it. Indurain and Ullrich for starters. In fact, diesel climbing used to be how GTs were won, until organizers developed their wall fetish and only care about the steepest climbs available

Still, Indurain and Ullrich didn't win GTs by beating everyone else in the mountains. Especially Big Mig won by crushing everyone in the ITTs and mainly keeping up in the mountains. The level Pog and Vingegaard have showed in the mountains the last couple of years is really high in terms of modern cycling. If Remco in the future, don't only win the ITTs and keep up with these two in the mountains, but also drop them in several of the biggest mountain stages, I would almost be worried and take this discussion to an another part of this forum.

Btw, there aren't that many walls in cycling outside the Vuelta. And I would prefer stages with climbs like Finestre, Mortirolo or similar to the more classic Alps climbs. I would also almost call it a fetish the eagnerness someone has for massive amounts of ITT in GTs. It's almost like someone is this forum don't rate a rider like Bernal a "worthy" GT-winner if he should win a Giro packed with mountains but only with 30-40 km ITT.

 

[Savant12]

If the Tour route has cobbles again, then Giro it is. But if the Giro has gravel, Vuelta again it is.

 

[Extinction]

Dieseling up the mountain with super-strong and explosive guys like Pog and Vinge on the wheel is a recipe for disaster - Remco will use up way more energy due to aero drag (which on 7-8% cols of the Tour is substantial) resulting in being dropped at some point by fresher and more explosive rivals. If anything he needs a super-strong dom to do the dirty job.

Well, I meant like what he was able to do at the Vuelta, when only Mas could follow, or nobody could. Otherwise he needs to control and not react brutally to big surges and the deisel back up when the pace drops a bit, to then try and finish it off if he's got the legs

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

In case they can fit him in? Alaphilippe should be the first man on the team sheet!

I can imagine him not wanting to be working for another guy's GC everyday. Wanting more freedom and support than what is wise. In the Vuelta his form was below par so he had nothing better to do. Hence my comment.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Still, Indurain and Ullrich didn't win GTs by beating everyone else in the mountains.

Stage 9 Ullrich, Virenque, and Pantani st.
Stage 10 Virenque and Pantani +1:08 to Ullrich
Stage 13 Pantani -0:47 and Virenque +0:40 to Ullrich
Stage 14 Virenque st. and Pantani +3:06 to Ullrich
Stage 15 Pantani -1:17 and Virenque st. to Ullrich

Ullrich put 1:48 into Virenque and 2:10 into Pantani in the mountains.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I can imagine him not wanting to be working for another guy's GC everyday. Wanting more freedom and support than what is wise. In the Vuelta his form was below par so he had nothing better to do. Hence my comment.

Alaphilippe is french and a big star, probably has the highest wage on the team and has done great things in TdF. Remco will be lining up as a very dangerous outsider, so if youre not bringing Alaf in a free role youre straight up trolling. Dont get ahead of yourself now

 

[DNP-Old]

Jan Ullrich on Andorra Arcalis is literally one of the greatest performances of all time.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Dieseling up the mountain with super-strong and explosive guys like Pog and Vinge on the wheel is a recipe for disaster - Remco will use up way more energy due to aero drag (which on 7-8% cols of the Tour is substantial) resulting in being dropped at some point by fresher and more explosive rivals. If anything he needs a super-strong dom to do the dirty job.

Finding a super strong dom who is still there during moneytime and strong enough to drag Evenepoel to Pog/Vinge... then you are talking about a rider who would be able to win the TDF himself. No idea who this dom would have to be, or where QS would find him, let alone how they'd pay for him.

I think Pog is a bit like Van der Poel in a way. A near endless reserve of short accelerations due to a superior in -race recovery, but there is a breaking point when the pace is set too high for too long. If you look at the w/kg Pog is pushing on the big climbs, they are not better than the numbers of Vingegaard or Evenepoel. There's a difference between accelerating out of the wheel of McNulty or Gesink, and accelerating out of the wheel of a rival who is pushing your max numbers already.

Alaphilippe is french and a big star, probably has the highest wage on the team and has done great things in TdF. Remco will be lining up as a very dangerous outsider, so if youre not bringing Alaf in a free role youre straight up trolling. Dont get ahead of yourself now

We are in the Evenepoel topic discussing an optimal GC support team for him. That was what the discussion was about. Evenepoel has won the Vuelta, Liège and San Sebastian this year alone. Alaphilippe's biggest wins of the past 3 seasons are 2x WC which weren't in QS shirt, and he has won Flèche twice and has 3 TDF stages spread over 3 seasons. If you think Alaphilippe is the big star of the team right now then i'm not the one trolling or getting ahead of myself. And since you seem to be a big fan, you should also know that Alaphilippe usually doesn't move a muscle without his buddy Devenyns there. Again, hence the comment "if they can fit him in".

As i have said in other topics/posts, you can question this approach, where Evenepoel goes to the TDF next year will a full team in support, since it will be difficult to play the "i'll be happy with a top 10 spot/decide halfway whether i'll ride for GC/take it day by day" card like they have been doing in the past (Vuelta and Giro). It's also not up to QS to control the race with Jumbo and UAE there, unless again he takes the lead early.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I like most of the biggest riders more than Alaf. Im not a big fan of Alaphilippe, but I can't really fault you for thinking that. After all, discussing riders that you're not a fan of maybe isn't that normal to you?

We have to be realistic. If you bring Alaphilippe as a helper, you might as well just leave him at home. Thats a waste of money, space and talent in a race where QS most likely will be in a different position than this year's Vuelta.

Leaving the useless sprinters at home is a no-brainer, but Alaf? Come on now, you don't do that.

 

[houtdffan]

Still, Indurain and Ullrich didn't win GTs by beating everyone else in the mountains. Especially Big Mig won by crushing everyone in the ITTs and mainly keeping up in the mountains. The level Pog and Vingegaard have showed in the mountains the last couple of years is really high in terms of modern cycling. If Remco in the future, don't only win the ITTs and keep up with these two in the mountains, but also drop them in several of the biggest mountain stages, I would almost be worried and take this discussion to an another part of this forum.

Btw, there aren't that many walls in cycling outside the Vuelta. And I would prefer stages with climbs like Finestre, Mortirolo or similar to the more classic Alps climbs. I would also almost call it a fetish the eagnerness someone has for massive amounts of ITT in GTs. It's almost like someone is this forum don't rate a rider like Bernal a "worthy" GT-winner if he should win a Giro packed with mountains but only with 30-40 km ITT.

I'd rewatch 1997 or even 1994. Indurain had a massive mountain attack on Hautacam, while Ullrich crushed Arcalis and the MTT. They won their tours in the mountains those years

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I like most of the biggest riders more than Alaf. Im not a big fan of Alaphilippe, but I can't really fault you for thinking that. After all, discussing riders that you're not a fan of maybe isn't that normal to you?

I discuss riders i find interesting but am not a fan of frequently enough. No, my resonse was due to your aggressive and patronizing tone as if Alaphilippe has been the superstar/messiah of cycling, which he hasn't been for 3 years, and me being a troll to suggest otherwise.

We have to be realistic. If you bring Alaphilippe as a helper, you might as well just leave him at home.

Ah, so you agree with "if they can fit him in" after all.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I discuss riders i find interesting but am not a fan of frequently enough. No, my resonse was due to your aggressive and patronizing tone as if Alaphilippe has been the superstar/messiah of cycling, which he hasn't been for 3 years.

No, I lined up factual reasons as to why leaving Alaphilippe at home is not happening. But call it what you want!