Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Extinction]

multiple times? Once.

I agree Strade was a fabulous win (a La Remco). But Strade is not Worlds. Strade you have individuals chasing behind. At Worlds the peloton never got closer to Remco after he went solo. He was expending energy from 70 kms out and arguably was solo from 35 kms out (Luchenko did not do much).

Remco has now done these types of rides (truly) multiple times, where he holds off entire peloton and teams chasing behind.

I cannot see Pog ever winning a Worlds like that a La Remco. However, neither can I imagine Remco winning a Worlds in a sprint. Pog I most definitely can.

I do find it a little funny posters who deny the real experience of pros because it does not jibe with their fan biases.

Agreed, when Remco attacks he just rides away.

 

[Big Doopie]

I think the way Pogacar crashed onto the scene and versitality, somewhat misleadingly obscured Remco's great talent until this year. But that was as much owing to Remco's career threatening crash at the moment Pog was about to "shock the world" by winning the Tour still 22 years-old, and the long road to recovery (with an imprudently hastened and hazzarded GT debute at the Giro), rather than just Tadej's success.

this.

Pog would still have his stunning and brilliant TDF win in 2020 at age 21, but without Remco’s crash, I think it is fair to question whether the present narrative (where Remco is constantly looking up trying to match the great Pog’s successes) would indeed be the same.

without Lombardia, would Remco have won the Giro in 2020, and then competed at the TDF in 2021. Think of the one day races he would have challenged or won, and he would have been competing in more World Tour weeklong stage races much earlier than T-A, Itzulia and TDS this year…not saying Remco would have won everything but the narrative that Pog was the real (unchallenged) new Merckx might never have been. We would have seen the growth of two superb young champions (with one still 1+ years younger).

 

[Offline]

Pogacar and Vingegaard is better at least to the day Remco coming to the Tour and prove me wrong.

 

[Andy schleck]

What the hell is valverde drinking?

 

[Andy schleck]

How was Remco in top shape there?

How was pogacar in top shape there?

 

[Big Doopie]

How was pogacar in top shape there?

At T-A?

he said so himself. Lol.

 

[spalco]

Usually a challenger has to overcome the obstacles a defender and route present.
Only after he proves himself is faced with something more favourable.
The pattern has rarely been violated.

They don't even need to design a route "for" Remco. The Vuelta wasn't massively favourable to him, and neither is next year's Giro.

I don't think any route should be designed either to help or hinder any particular rider, but to at least make it interesting is possible.

 

[OlavEH]

I do find it a little funny posters who deny the real experience of pros because it does not jibe with their fan biases.

Ironic that it is you making statements about fan biases......

 

[Extinction]

How was pogacar in top shape there?

Pogacar after starting at such a high level, because he had to, at the UAE Tour, said he then was nearly at his Tour form for Tirreno-Adriatico. Tadej himself said this.

 

[Big Doopie]

Ironic that it is you making statements about fan biases......

please point to when I have gone directly against a pro rider’s assessment of a race or other rider.

it is not me questioning the chase at LBL saying that it was disorganized and they were not even trying. I rather followed the assessment of all riders in that race.

Also, I think you will find many times that I have tried to temper the (to me) over-zealous claims of the Remco die-hards, only to find that even I have underestimated him.

 

[Extinction]

Ironic that it is you making statements about fan biases......

It's not making biased statements taking access to Valverde's (not Joe Shmoe's) assessment of who is the true powerhouse (and he said "by far"), which is positively noteworthy. Again it's Valverde stating it.

 

[Peyroteo94]

We need to wait for 2024 to see Remco vs Pogi. For now, I have little doubts that Pogi is better but hope to see a lot of battles between them. They are truly remarkable riders, possibly two futures legends of this wonderful sport.

 

[Extinction]

It seems what Valverde is suggesting is that if things keep going this way for Evenepoel, it won't even be close between himself and the rest. At least that's how I take it. Now if anyone around here made such a bold statement, one could say that person is out of his or her mind. But when Valverde is the one saying it, it must not be taken lightly. I believe Valverde thinks when that kid starts to hit his top potential, it's going to be a massacre for the others.

 

[Extinction]

We need to wait for 2024 to see Remco vs Pogi. For now, I have little doubts that Pogi is better but hope to see a lot of battles between them. They are truly remarkable riders, possibly two futures legends of this wonderful sport.

To the bolded agreed and I myself thought Pog was clearly better until this year. Now, however, I really think its logical to have doubts and I foresee Remco getting much, much better over the next 5 years (because he came into cycling late and had that terrible crash), whereas I don't see that same margin for improvement or continued growth in Tadej. It's just my opinion, though. But I think we are going to be in for some epic battles between them.

 

[OlavEH]

please point to when I have gone directly against a pro rider’s assessment of a race or other rider.

it is not me questioning the chase at LBL saying that it was disorganized and they were not even trying. I rather followed the assessment of all riders in that race.

Also, I think you will find many times that I have tried to temper the (to me) over-zealous claims of the Remco die-hards, only to find that even I have underestimated him.

If you asked a top football player in 2012, 2015 or 2018 who was the best player of Ronaldo or Messi, you would probably get different answers and it wouldn't be a definitive conclusion. The same applies now for Pog vs Remco. I'm pretty sure that if you asked all the riders in the peloton, many of them would answer Pogacar.

And you appear to big a fairly big Remco fan. Of course you would use Valverde's claim for what it is worth.

 

[Extinction]

If you asked a top football player in 2012, 2015 or 2018 who was the best player of Ronaldo or Messi, you would probably different answers and it wouldn't be a definitive answer. The same applies now for Pog vs Remco. I'm pretty sure that if you asked all the riders in the peloton, many of them would answer Pogacar.

And you appear to big a fairly big Remco fan. Of course you would use Valverde's claim for what it is worth.

Fan or not, one must conclude that Valverde's claim is worth a lot, having won and podiumed some 300 times in his career. I'd dare say his opinion is one of the most important out there.

 

[OlavEH]

Fan or not, one must conclude that Valverde's claim is worth a lot, having won and podiumed some 300 times in his career. I'd dare say his opinion is one of the most important out there.

It is still ironic that he accuses other of fan biases.

 

[Big Doopie]

If you asked a top football player in 2012, 2015 or 2018 who was the best player of Ronaldo or Messi, you would probably get different answers and it wouldn't be a definitive conclusion. The same applies now for Pog vs Remco. I'm pretty sure that if you asked all the riders in the peloton, many of them would answer Pogacar.

And you appear to big a fairly big Remco fan. Of course you would use Valverde's claim for what it is worth.

so I take it you have no examples of me doing exactly what you accuse me of. Nice.

yes I am a big Remco fan because I think he is the most exciting rider in a very long time and has turned back the clock and made me nostalgic.

i have also been particularly vocal about the double-standard he is consistently judged on. And I am simply factually correct in that assessment given the many many examples.

and yet, if you actually looked back at all my posts, you will find that my enthusiasm for his eventual road/racing success has often been tempered with more reality than many. And yet, irony of ironies, I find myself often wrong when tempering that enthusiasm and the so-called “nutty” fans have fairly regularly ended up being correct. So “chapeau” to them.

 

[Extinction]

It is still ironic that he accuses other of fan biases.

I think, although Big Doopie will have to answer, it has to do with Remco's detractors (I hate the word "haters," which is purile) making general and biased conclusions about his limits (after a horrific accident sidelined him for months and arrested his natural development), to then have Evenepoel prove them wrong every time. So now it's, yea, but he "won't win the Tour against Pog and Vingo," but even without Valverde's assessment (which nonetheless adds substance to what others are thinking) I would not bet against Remco in this regard. But, of course, only time will tell.

 

[OlavEH]

so I take it you have no examples of me doing exactly what you accuse me of. Nice.

yes I am a big Remco fan because I think he is the most exciting rider in a very long time and has turned back the clock and made me nostalgic.

and yet, if you actually looked back at all my posts, you will find that my enthusiasm has often been tempered with more reality than many. And yet I find myself often wrong when tempering that enthusiasm and the so-called “nutty” fans have fairly regularly ended up being correct. So “chapeau” to them.

It's still ironic that you accuse other of fan biases when yourself are one of the debaters on the forum using most time to debate one single rider.

 

[Big Doopie]

It's still ironic that you accuse other of fan biases when yourself are one of the debaters on the forum using most time to debate one single rider.

to “debate” does not assume bias.

please point to any unreasoned assessment that I have made re: Remco. And as I have noted, it is often the more ardent, less “reasoned” Remco fans who have been proven correct despite my attempts to not be so black and white. In other words, my assessments have regularly been wrong but not in the way you may think/hope.

 

[Extinction]

It's still ironic that you accuse other of fan biases when yourself are one of the debaters on the forum using most time to debate one single rider.

And what's wrong with posting about a rider you like? Sounds normal to me. No one is obliged to discuss matters of little interest to that person. And, besides, everyone has there preferences, but biased responses are only when assessment goes in the face of the evidence just because you root for so-and-so. But I don't think saying Remco is quite among those at the top of the cycling pecking order is biased if you are his fan, because he simply and objectively is.

 

[OlavEH]

And what's wrong woth posting about a rider you like? Sounds normal to me. No one is obliged to discuss matters of little interest to that person. And, besides, everyone has there preferences, but biased responses are only when assessment goes in the face of the evidence just because you root for so-and-so. But I don't think saying Remco is quite among those at the top of the cycling pecking order, because he simply and objectively is.

It is not wrong, I just not believe for one second that he is more objective than others.

 

[Extinction]

It is not wrong, I just not believe for one second that he is more objective than others.

I think Big Doopie knows when he exaggerates a little bit, but it's just for emphasis I believe. On the other hand, I've read posts of his in which he demonstrated a level headedness and critical approach to Evenepoel's status. The problem is now Remco is back on the rise and that spells trouble for the competion. I don't believe its biased to say so, because it just is so. What happens in the future, doesn't make the present any less significant.

 

[Andy schleck]

Pogacar after starting at such a high level, because he had to, at the UAE Tour, said he then was nearly at his Tour form for Tirreno-Adriatico. Tadej himself said this.

Remco never achieved the numbers of peak pogacar. There's even no discussion.