Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Big Doopie]

It is not wrong, I just not believe for one second that he is more objective than others.

hard to keep track of what every poster says individually, so I understand.

however, IF you were to look back, you would find many times that I tried to tone down the rhetoric of the “fans” in the hope of a more reasoned debate.

however, I do not deny that I am a fan of the rider.

and, I have to admit that the more ardent “take no prisoners” fans have more often been correct in the end.

so it looks like I cannot catch a break.

i am “vilified” by the detractors for being too biased. And not ardent enough a believer in Remco to the “extreme” fans.

such is often the dilemma of trying to be “reasoned” on a discussion forum. Haha!

 

[Extinction]

Remco never achieved the numbers of peak pogacar. There's even no discussion.

And you believe you honestly know what those numbers are? Evidently Valverde thinks it's up for discussion and was very clear about where his verdict lies. Now that's not up for discussion, but the numbers yes. I'll bet peak Remco this season was putting out numbers comparable with Pogacar's. And I don't think Pogacar could have ridden the field off his wheels like Remco did at both Liege and Worlds, nor does Valverde evidently. Moreover, I think Remco's climbing numbers before he crashed at the Vuelta were as good, if not better, than what Pogacar has put out at the Tour.

 

[KZD]

Remco never achieved the numbers of peak pogacar. There's even no discussion.

6.5 w/kg for 30 minutes in Norway
7.15w/kg for 13 minutes in San Sebastian

When did Pogačar produced better numbers?

 

[Extinction]

hard to keep track of what every poster says individually, so I understand.

however, IF you were to look back, you would find many times that I tried to tone down the rhetoric of the “fans” in the hope of a more reasoned debate.

however, I do not deny that I am a fan of the rider.

and, I have to admit that the more ardent “take no prisoners” fans have more often been correct in the end.

so it looks like I cannot catch a break.

i am “vilified” by the detractors for being too biased. And not ardent enough a believer in Remco to the “extreme” fans.

such is often the dilemma of trying to be “reasoned” on a discussion forum. Haha!

Don't worry about it, because Remco engenders just as much biased animosity towards him as fanfare.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

There's also absolutely no reason why they wouldn't want Remco at the Tour. Apparently they don't care much either way though, at least for now. I wouldn't be shocked if the 2024 route offers some modest incentives for Remco.

Maybe, but they don't have to. Evenepoel has already said that he would ride the 2024 Tour.

He will only race the 2023 Giro due to team dynamics, IMO. Sporza is already trying to drum up support for his Giro bid (the poll red flanders was talking about). There was criticism in the Belgian media before re: him likely skipping the 2023 Tour. Merckx has already changed his tune.

They will frame it as if he races the Giro because it is ITT-heavy in comparison. And because they want to "stick to the plan". I do not buy it.

I also think the 2023 Tour suits Evenepoel. Stage 20 even suits him very well. It's a shame, really.

 

[Extinction]

I enjoy watching both riders, it's just that, for whatever, reasons the way Pogacar literally seemed to have come from nowhere on his UAE team seemed weird. By contrast, probably because Belgian and just so powerful, Evenepoel struck that nostalgia cord for cycling in the 80s, when I started riding and racing, the era of Hinault, Fignon, Lemond, Kelly, Roche, Delgado for which I immediately took to him.

 

[AlfaLum]

Valverdes opinion is just one among a million opinions.

At this stage the whole Pogacar vs. Remco discussion is a bit stupid. They are both extremely talented and doing incredible things. But they are both still at a very early stage of their career and have hardly raced eachother.

Pogacars palmares is better at the moment and one can argue that Evenepoels victories are won in a more impressive manner. But other than that there is hardly anything to put one over the other after last season.

 

[OlavEH]

6.5 w/kg for 30 minutes in Norway
7.15w/kg for 13 minutes in San Sebastian

When did Pogačar produced better numbers?

In the Tour, Pog and Vingegaard did 6,36 on Azet and 6,21 on Peyragudes at the end of a tough 4 climb mountain stage.
Last year Pog did 6,39 on Romme and 6,33 on Colombiere. That is pretty impressive.

 

[OlavEH]

I think Big Doopie knows when he exaggerates a little bit, but it's just for emphasis I believe. On the other hand, I've read posts of his in which he demonstrated a level headedness and critical approach to Evenepoel's status. The problem is now Remco is back on the rise and that spells trouble for the competion. I don't believe its biased to say so, because it just is so. What happens in the future, doesn't make the present any less significant.

It wouldn't be to difficult to assess how people regard Remco. One could answer the four questions I've asked below.

Is Remco the rider of 2022? Yes, he is.
Is Remco a top 3 rider regardless if every top rider had a peak season? Yes, very likely he is.
Is Remco very likely (let's say well over 50 % likely) the best rider in the world if every rider had a peak season? No, he isn't.
Would Remco very likely (well over 50 %) beat Pog and Vingegaard in a Tour similar to the 2022 route? No way!

 

[Andy schleck]

And you believe you honestly know what those numbers are? Evidently Valverde thinks it's up for discussion and was very clear about where his verdict lies. Now that's not up for discussion, but the numbers yes. I'll bet peak Remco this season was putting out numbers comparable with Pogacar's. And I don't think Pogacar could have ridden the field off his wheels like Remco did at both Liege and Worlds, nor does Valverde evidently. Moreover, I think Remco's climbing numbers before he crashed at the Vuelta were as good, if not better, than what Pogacar has put out at the Tour.

No, he can't. A rider that wasn't better than Mas at the vuelta in the mountains, can't drop peak pogacar or peak vingegaard this year.

Valverde can say what he wants, but it's not true. It's just ridiculous. I also could say that merckx thinks that Pogacar is the best in the world, and his status is superior to Valverde's status.

But, if he is already better than pogacar, he should go to the tour next year. I hope he goes, the best should be at the tour.

 

[Extinction]

Valverdes opinion is just one among a million opinions.

Oh, you can't be serious. You mean the opinion of the most winning cyclist of his generation (which spans 3 by the way) and one of the most winning cyclists of all time is just one out of a million? Again, you can't be serious. If anyone has the experience to gauge talent and performance from first hand experience in this regard, it is he. It's like saying an expert doctor in medicine has an opinion worth no more than the multitude's unknowing thoughts on the causes of maladies.

 

[Extinction]

No, he can't. A rider that wasn't better than Mas at the vuelta in the mountains, can't drop peak pogacar or peak vingegaard this year.

Valverde can say what he wants, but it's not true. It's just ridiculous. I also could say that merckx thinks that Pogacar is the best in the world, and his status is superior to Valverde's status.

But, if he is already better than pogacar, he should go to the tour next year. I hope he goes, the best should be at the tour.

Well, judging that a top Pog could not drop Mas in post Worlds Italy, particularly Lombardia, indicates that what you say is highly debatable. The discussion is power output and put that Mas in the last Tour and he would have podiumed, as at the Vuelta. It's not Remco's fault that Mas was not in the same condition at the Tour as he was at the Vuelta. What counts are absolute numbers, not the race in which they occurred, even if with all the hype, pressure and mental stress at the Tour it's arguably harder to hit your best numbers there. At any rate, if Remco handles the pressure and shows up at the Tour with the form, and presumably better form, he had at the Vuelta, I bet he will be a tough nut to crack.

 

[AlfaLum]

Oh, you can't be serious. You mean the opinion of the most winning cyclist of his generation (which spans 3 by the way) and one of the most winning cyclists of all time is just one out of a million? Again, you can't be serious. If anyone has the experience to gauge talent and performance from first hand experience in this regard, it is he. It's like saying an expert doctor in medicine has an opinion worth no more than the multitude's unknowing thoughts on the causes of maladies.

Being able to race well doesn’t necessarily mean that you are able to recognize the same talents in others well. The best scouts in cycling/football are not always the best former players.

Furthermore, when making a comparison between two extremely talented riders like this I don’t believe that being a former cyclist really helps to make a judgement. I think Valverdes opinion is mostly based on what he values the highest. And that makes it just an opinion to me.

 

[Big Doopie]

Oh, you can't be serious. You mean the opinion of the most winning cyclist of his generation (which spans 3 by the way) and one of the most winning cyclists of all time is just one out of a million? Again, you can't be serious. If anyone has the experience to gauge talent and performance from first hand experience in this regard, it is he. It's like saying an expert doctor in medicine has an opinion worth no more than the multitude's unknowing thoughts on the causes of maladies.

its like when Larry Warbasse said that Valverde is much more liked in the peloton than Nibali. If I am a Nibali fan I guess I completely discount the opinion of someone who is actually in the peloton…(?)

personally I cannot stand either rider for different reasons, but Nibali certainly comes across as unsmiling, somewhat full of himself, and has picked fights with almost everyone. So it does not seem difficult to believe Warbasse. However, had he said the opposite, I would then take that very much into account.

And btw Warbasse is fairly clearly not a Remco fan, saying he is liked probably as much as he is disliked. I imagine that has shifted somewhat since the early Remco days when he flailed angrily at riders who would not take turns, brushed his shoulder arrogantly on pino blanco and pushed an Ineos rider out of the way. All things, btw, that I have criticized him for.

 

[Red Rick]

Nibali vs Valverde is dead

Long live Pogacar vs Evenepoel

 

[DNP-Old]

Remco never achieved the numbers of peak pogacar. There's even no discussion.

Quite the contrary actually. Pogacar has never produced the numbers of Remco. Regardless, that's not his quality. Pogacar's speciality is that he can drop 6+ w/kg whenever he so pleases.

 

[red_flanders]

6.5 w/kg for 30 minutes in Norway
7.15w/kg for 13 minutes in San Sebastian

When did Pogačar produced better numbers?

While the real numbers are a fair point to bring up, I don't see them as a mic drop argument. With the pressure and difficulty of the Tour, I'd take the same numbers from the Tour over any other race as "better numbers" simply because they were done under more difficult circumstances.

The only way to know is to watch them race against one another in the biggest races a few times...

 

[yaco]

Remco can often ride his competitors off his wheel BUT we must remember there were times in the junior's when one rider stayed glued to the wheel and Colbrelli stayed with him at the 2021 European championship - So at times, riders can stay with remco.

 

[Extinction]

Being able to race well doesn’t necessarily mean that you are able to recognize the same talents in others well. The best scouts in cycling/football are not always the best former players.

Furthermore, when making a comparison between two extremely talented riders like this I don’t believe that being a former cyclist really helps to make a judgement. I think Valverdes opinion is mostly based on what he values the highest. And that makes it just an opinion to me.

But cycling and football are not comparable. Football is not a race, but a match, so direct confrontations are limited to opposing offences and defences, with often some players having little to no engagement with others. By contrast, the peleton (those not already dropped) gets a firsthand experience of the fury and power of race winning moves. When you are on the receiving end, like the example of Nibali at Liege, but also everyone else there, it's like getting KOd with a rock hard punch in the face. The more violent the excelleration the harder the punch (it's not surprising that cycling is often compared with boxing). Valverde is thus much more in a position than you or I to judge the actual situation (and certainly even more than some talent scout not participating in the race, feeling what riders feel in it), because he has felt Evenepoel's punches and they were brutally devestating. Talent scouting is something else. Valverde has personally felt the blows.

 

[Extinction]

While the real numbers are a fair point to bring up, I don't see them as a mic drop argument. With the pressure and difficulty of the Tour, I'd take the same numbers from the Tour over any other race as "better numbers" simply because they were done under more difficult circumstances.

The only way to know is to watch them race against one another in the biggest races a few times...

Amen

 

[OlavEH]

Quite the contrary actually. Pogacar has never produced the numbers of Remco. Regardless, that's not his quality. Pogacar's speciality is that he can drop 6+ w/kg whenever he so pleases.

And what numbers are that? It is more relevant with numbers from a big mountain stage with several big climbs than unipuerto stages.

 

[Extinction]

its like when Larry Warbasse said that Valverde is much more liked in the peloton than Nibali. If I am a Nibali fan I guess I completely discount the opinion of someone who is actually in the peloton…(?)

personally I cannot stand either rider for different reasons, but Nibali certainly comes across as unsmiling, somewhat full of himself, and has picked fights with almost everyone. So it does not seem difficult to believe Warbasse. However, had he said the opposite, I would then take that very much into account.

And btw Warbasse is fairly clearly not a Remco fan, saying he is liked probably as much as he is disliked. I imagine that has shifted somewhat since the early Remco days when he flailed angrily at riders who would not take turns, brushed his shoulder arrogantly on pino blanco and pushed an Ineos rider out of the way. All things, btw, that I have criticized him for.

In Nibali's defence, however, what some people construe as unsmiling is actually shyness and genuine southern humbleness. Although he can at times be guilty of over-sensitivity and quick to feeling offended (when no insult or offense was intended), because of that Sicilian pride (although it holds true of Southern Italians in general).

 

[Extinction]

Remco can often ride his competitors off his wheel BUT we must remember there were times in the junior's when one rider stayed glued to the wheel and Colbrelli stayed with him at the 2021 European championship - So at times, riders can stay with remco.

Certainly, but the fact that he is able to do to pros what he did to juniors is remarkable.

 

[AlfaLum]

But cycling and football are not comparable. Football is not a race, but a match, so direct confrontations are limited to opposing offences and defences, with often some players having little to no engagement with others. By contrast, the peleton (those not already dropped) gets a firsthand experience of the fury and power of race winning moves. When you are on the receiving end, like the example of Nibali at Liege, but also everyone else there, it's like getting punched hard in the face to be KOd. The more violent the excelleration the harder the punch (it's not surprising that cycling is often compared with boxing). Valverde is thus much more in a position than you or I to judge the actual situation (and certainly even more than some talent scout not participating in the race, feeling what riders feel in it), because he has felt Evenepoel's punches and they were brutally devestating. Talent scouting is something else. Valverde has personally felt the blows.

You have a point, but still I think that it might also make him biased to a certain degree.

It obviously goes without saying that we have seen some extremely impressive performances by Evenepoel. Performances where the rest of the peloton was helpless over a long distance despite putting in all the effort possible. It must also have made them feel helpless. But that is also exactly where Remco’s uniqueness is, he kills of the entire peloton once he is gone.

But does that alone make him a better rider than Pogacar? For me not yet. Because Pogacar also has had some extremely good performances in the best races.

And while Valverde must have felt the punches, he has been outboxed by both riders in recent years almost everywhere it mattered. So while he might have felt Evenepoels blows where harder, he was also knocked out by Pogacar on many occasions. And even he cannot say if Evenepoel can deliver an extremely hard knockout blow to Pogacar, or whether repeated Pogacar strikes will tire out Evenepoel to eventually beat him down.

So while I obviously take Valverde seriously, it is still just an opinion for me.

 

[Andy schleck]

,

Well, judging that a top Pog could not drop Mas in post Worlds Italy, particularly Lombardia, indicates that what you say is highly debatable. The discussion is power output and put that Mas in the last Tour and he would have podiumed, as at the Vuelta. It's not Remco's fault that Mas was not in the same condition at the Tour as he was at the Vuelta. What counts are absolute numbers, not the race in which they occurred, even if with all the hype, pressure and mental stress at the Tour it's arguably harder to hit your best numbers there. At any rate, if Remco handles the pressure and shows up at the Tour with the form, and presumably better form, he had at the Vuelta, I bet he will be a tough nut to crack.

Pogi wasn't on top of his shape at lombardia. But he won the race.
Remco is one of the best riders of the world, but it doesn't make any sense saying that he is way better than pogacar.