Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

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KZD

Feb 21, 2019
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I fail to see why it is so self evident Remco had a better season than Pogacar. Ok he has worlds but Pogacar has Tirreno and UAE. One could very easily rate Pogacars Tour performance higher than Remco’s Vuelta. As a matter of fact, if Remco’s Vuelta outweighs Pogacar’s Tour then Hindley’ Giro should outhweigh them both…

Having a better season is very subjective category. And the only real objective criteria we have is UCI where Pogacar is weirdly better by quite a handsome margin.

Hindley's Giro, 0 stage wins, Remco's Giro, 2 stage wins and 15 days wearing the red jersey, I fail to understand how Hindley's Giro outweights Remco's Vuelta.

As for the UCI ranking, well if you use that as an objective criteria to measure the who is the best rider in the world then you must think Arnaud De Lie is the sixth best rider and Primoz Roglic the 23th best...
 
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Hindley's Giro, 0 stage wins, Remco's Giro, 2 stage wins and 15 days wearing the red jersey, I fail to understand how Hindley's Giro outweights Remco's Vuelta.

As for the UCI ranking, well if you use that as an objective criteria to measure the who is the best rider in the world then you must think Arnaud De Lie is the sixth best rider and Primoz Roglic the 23th best...
I think it's because bNator thinks the Giro is more prestigious than the Vuelta, but currently (the Tour being head and shoulders above them) it depends on who wins. In this sense, Remco has more weight than Hindley.
 
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Apr 14, 2021
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It’s clear Remco is a spectacular rider who had a spectacular season. It’s just not that clear to me his season was objectively better than Pogacar’s. Pog had a great season, too. Beginning with a win, finishing with a win 8 months later, won a monument, was fourth on another one, won Strade Bianche, two one week races, was second on the Tour where he won 3(!!) stages and won more races than Remco altogether and has more UCI points. I’m not even saying Pog’s season is better, but Remco having a better season is now becoming an axiom which I can’t agree with…
 

KZD

Feb 21, 2019
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I think it's because bNator thinks the Giro is more prestigious than the Vuelta, but currently (the Tour being head and shoulders above them) it depends on who wins. In this sense, Remco has more weight than Hindley.

Well, while one could prefer the Giro to the Vuelta, its a more epic race, the Vuelta has been having a higher level than the Giro in the last years so winning the Vuelta in the way Remco did can't be below Hindley's Giro prestige wise.

But for me its 'easy' to reach a conclusion about this discussion, Pogacar is the best rider in the world and was the most consistent one in 2022 but the best rider of the year was Remco because winning a monument, a GT and the World Championships in something for the history books in a similar way to what Pogacar did last year. It wouldn't upset me at all if Pogacar wins the Velo d'Or 2022 but just I think Remco deserves it a little but more.
 
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Jan 8, 2020
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It’s clear Remco is a spectacular rider who had a spectacular season. It’s just not that clear to me his season was objectively better than Pogacar’s. Pog had a great season, too. Beginning with a win, finishing with a win 8 months later, won a monument, was fourth on another one, won Strade Bianche, two one week races, was second on the Tour where he won 3(!!) stages and won more races than Remco altogether and has more UCI points. I’m not even saying Pog’s season is better, but Remco having a better season is now becoming an axiom which I can’t agree with…
At the risk of being repetitive, I think you have to bear in mind that there are three orders of magnitude in cycling, GTs, monuments and Worlds, with everything else taking second fiddle by a longshot. As KZD has pointed out, having netted the hat trick (and at 22 mind you) Remco's season was golden. By contrast, Pogacar did not win the Tour as the heavy favorite and he did not win Worlds, whereas his Lombardia takes a back seat to Evenepoel's Liege, especially for the way the Belgian stampted his authority all over that race. And even though Pogacar got second in France, he was dominated by a stronger rider both in the high mountains and in the TT, creating a gaping hole in his results this year that not even Strade Bianche and Tirreno can fill imo. Only winning Flanders would have somewhat, but not entirely, made up for losing the Tour. So his season was only silver at best. Lastly, Vingegaard, yes, won the Tour in sound fashion, but nothing else. Yet winning your first Tour against a great one like Pogacar, would have been good enough to win the prize in any other season except this one I believe. Since, especially considering his age and that he has finally fully come back from a life and career threatening crash, Remco's rare and exceptional feat of winning a monument, a GT and Worlds the same year gives him the edge. I thus think the jury shall deem Remco's golden year to have more luster than Jonas's. I also think that it's the addition of Worlds, won, moreover, in such dominating fashion, which puts Remco's season ultimately on a higher plain than either Pogacar's or Vingegaard's.
 
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Jul 20, 2019
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At the risk of being repetitive, I think you have to bear in mind that there are three orders of magnitude in cycling, GTs, monuments and Worlds, with everything else taking second fiddle by a longshot. As KZD has pointed out, having netted the hat trick (and at 22 mind you) Remco's season was golden. By contrast, Pogacar did not win the Tour as the heavy favorite and he did not win Worlds, whereas his Lombardia takes a back seat to Evenepoel's Liege, especially for the way the Belgian stampted his authority all over that race. And even though Pogacar got second in France, he was dominated by a stronger rider both in the high mountains and in the TT, creating a gaping hole in his results this year that not even Strade Bianche and Tirreno can fill imo. Only winning Flanders would have somewhat, but not entirely, made up for losing the Tour. So his season was only silver at best. Lastly, Vingegaard, yes, won the Tour in sound fashion, but nothing else. Yet winning your first Tour against a great one like Pogacar, would have been good enough to win the prize in any other season except this one I believe. Since, especially considering his age and that he has finally fully come back from a life and career threatening crash, Remco's rare and exceptional feat of winning a monument, a GT and Worlds the same year gives him the edge. I thus think the jury shall deem Remco's golden year to have more luster than Jonas's. I also think that it's the addition of Worlds, won, moreover, in such dominating fashion, which puts Remco's season ultimately on a higher plain than either Pogacar's or Vingegaard's.

I'd put the top week long stage races on the same level as a monument. The top level races being PN, TA, Dauphine, and Suisse
 
Jan 8, 2020
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I'd put the top week long stage races on the same level as a monument. The top level races being PN, TA, Dauphine, and Suisse
I honestly think they are one notch down, since they are in the greater scheme of things prepatory for bigger goals; the former precisely for the monuments, the latter indeed for the Tour. Although, of course, they are prestigious in their own right, but not exclusively in their own right and I think that's the difference with monuments and Worlds. I'd thus take a win in MSR, Flanders, PR or Liege over Tirreno or PN, just as I'd take winning the Tour over Dauphine or Suisse (and I'd even take Flanders, Roubaix and Liege, with only perhaps not MSR - though I love la primavera - over these second tier stage races). Whereas I'd take the rainbow jersey over all stage races except GTs.
 
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Feb 20, 2012
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Surely the WT stage races are a solid counterpart to the same level of races like GW, AGR, Fleche, CSS.

For me the big question is how you rank the Giro, Tour, Vuelta and Worlds to each other and to the monuments if you place the 5 monuments at the same level. A second big question would be how do you rate podiums in the big races, especially the GTs. In my opinion near misses in the Giro and Vuelta are treated as almost irrelevant for Velo d'Or while a 2nd place in the Tour can still be very significant.
 
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KZD

Feb 21, 2019
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Tour

Giro Vuelta WCRR OLRR (near miss at the Tour)

Monuments, OLTT (podium at the Tour/near miss at Giro/Vuelta)

WCTT, Dauphiné, PN, Tirreno, Strade, Fleche, Amstel, Green jersey (podium at Giro/Vuelta)

Itzulia, Catalunya, Romandie, GW, Donostia, E3, Omloop, polka dot jersey, stage win/top10 at the Tour

@Red Rick, This would be my ranking, I think any race below these is irrelevant for Velo d'Or though as French, I think they give more importance to green and polka dot jersey than what I personally give.
 
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Jan 8, 2020
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Tour

Giro Vuelta WCRR OLRR (near miss at the Tour)

Monuments, OLTT (podium at the Tour/near miss at Giro/Vuelta)

WCTT, Dauphiné, PN, Tirreno, Strade, Fleche, Amstel, Green jersey (podium at Giro/Vuelta)

Itzulia, Catalunya, Romandie, GW, Donostia, E3, Omloop, polka dot jersey, stage win/top10 at the Tour

@Red Rick, This would be my ranking, I think any race below these is irrelevant for Velo d'Or though as French, I think they give more importance to green and polka dot jersey than what I personally give.
I pretty much agree with you, but would only point out imo, for example, while Hinault's Sallances WCRR ranks higher than his PR, I'd put Sagan's PR over any of his Worlds. But these are details.
 
Jan 8, 2020
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Surely the WT stage races are a solid counterpart to the same level of races like GW, AGR, Fleche, CSS.

For me the big question is how you rank the Giro, Tour, Vuelta and Worlds to each other and to the monuments if you place the 5 monuments at the same level. A second big question would be how do you rate podiums in the big races, especially the GTs. In my opinion near misses in the Giro and Vuelta are treated as almost irrelevant for Velo d'Or while a 2nd place in the Tour can still be very significant.
I'd say until the Indurain/Pantani era the Giro was more significant than the Vuelta, but nowadays, even though it's my favorite GT, unfortunately it just doesn't get the Bigs of yore to be even or higher than the Spanish GT. This largely depended om the late August move of the Vuelta since 1995, however. Prior to that the Giro was ahead and just below the Tour. Today I'd put Worlds on par with the Vuelta and the Giro, if not a wee notch above the latter, but again depending who wins what and on which course. And again who wins which monument versus the Worlds, and on what type of course regarding the latter, determines how I think they should be weighed into any potential Velo d'Or prize candidate. Let's say in general Flanders, PR and Liege can be on par with Worlds, but likely not MSR and Lombardia. My two cents.
 
Aug 13, 2011
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Tour

Giro Vuelta WCRR OLRR (near miss at the Tour)

Monuments, OLTT (podium at the Tour/near miss at Giro/Vuelta)

WCTT, Dauphiné, PN, Tirreno, Strade, Fleche, Amstel, Green jersey (podium at Giro/Vuelta)

Itzulia, Catalunya, Romandie, GW, Donostia, E3, Omloop, polka dot jersey, stage win/top10 at the Tour

@Red Rick, This would be my ranking, I think any race below these is irrelevant for Velo d'Or though as French, I think they give more importance to green and polka dot jersey than what I personally give.
TdS fell on some hard times.
 

KZD

Feb 21, 2019
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TdS fell on some hard times.

Forgot about it, belongs more towards the bottom of the list just like podium in the biggest one day races. I would put Olympic podium above WC and monuments though because its the biggest sportive event in the world so a medal there is always special no matter the colour.
 
Jan 8, 2020
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Forgot about it, belongs more towards the bottom of the list just like podium in the biggest one day races. I would put Olympic podium above WC and monuments though because its the biggest sportive event in the world so a medal there is always special no matter the colour.
Yes, but the Olympic RR used to be an amateur event and thus does not have the pedigree as Worlds (in cycling). Yet now they are probably equally prestigious on the day, but the Rainbow Jersey in cycling means more, as the wearer is a point of reference for an entire season. Although, for the athletes, as Bettini put it, the intercollegate and global aspects, have now made by he Olympic RR a huge deal, even if only cycling fans will watch it.
 
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Big Doopie

BANNED
Oct 6, 2009
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I actually consider the Olympics almost meaningless in a cyclist palmares. It has none of the cycling tradition of the monuments or Worlds. Especially since it used to be the territory only of “amateur” riders. It’s also this oddity the happens every four years and where cycling is only a small piece in the entire event.

I am aware that cyclists do target it and find it important. As a fan, I do not hold it high in a cycling palmares.

TDF
Worlds
Giro
Vuelta
P-R, LBL, Ronde, Lombardia
Strade, San Sebastián
MSR
Dauphine
TDS
Itzulia
Paris-Nice, T-A

My 2 cents.
 
Jan 8, 2020
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I actually consider the Olympics almost meaningless in a cyclist palmares. It has none of the cycling tradition of the monuments or Worlds. Especially since it used to be the territory only of “amateur” riders. It’s also this oddity the happens every four years and where cycling is only a small piece in the entire event.

I am aware that cyclists do target it and find it important. As a fan, I do not hold it high in a cycling palmares.

TDF
Worlds
Giro
Vuelta
P-R, LBL, Ronde, Lombardia
Strade, San Sebastián
MSR
Dauphine
TDS
Itzulia
Paris-Nice, T-A

My 2 cents.
Your positioning of MSR is sacrelige, however, as it goes after PR, LBL, Ronde, (Lombardia?). I know, the course is easy, but the time of the year and the capi make it magical. And I'd put Itzulia after PN and TDS, with San Sebastian and Strade (bless it's soul) at the bottom, but only for historical reasons. Worlds depends on the course and who wins, if not terribly hard and won by an outsider, then after Giro and Vuelta. If epic and won by a champion then where you put it.