Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[houtdffan]

Two.

three

 

[tobydawq]

three

Four.

 

[Extinction]

The problem with the term "best in the world" is that it's in comparison to all the other riders, and Evenepoel isn't the only once in a generation rider that appeared in the last few years.

In fact, in a recent CN article Pogacar was matter of factly declared "the best in the world," which does fly directly in the face of what Valverde said about Remco. Now I suppose one has to decide whose assessment is to be deemed more knowledgable and worthy, Alejandro Valverde's or Barry Ryan's?

 

[Extinction]

Maybe. He has of course matured like anyone his age. I also think that a LOT of the reaction to him was that he was SUPER young and a lot of folks saw his expectation to win and dominate as arrogance. Always seemed more to me as warranted confidence and the spirit of a champion. When a 19-year-old kid exhibits this it's going to rub some of the old guard the wrong way. He just expected to win, expected others to get on board, and rode like a kid possessed. I always thought the "immature" or "arrogant" label seemed overblown.

There is also the distinct possibility that his blatant confidence comes from knowing he's got something the others haven't, and that he is unashamed to express his expectations, which is de facto "arrogant" without intenting to be so. I seem to recall a certain Hinault was that way too.

 

[tobydawq]

In fact, in a recent CN article Pogacar was matter of factly declared "the best in the world," which does fly directly in the face of what Valverde said about Remco. Now I suppose one has to decide whose assessment is to be deemed more knowledgable and worthy, Alejandro Valverde's or Barry Ryan's?

Look, just because you have ridden in the peloton for 20 years it doesn't automatically make you a guru in punditry.

If Ryan had written that in June, nobody would have batted an eyelid.

It's too close to say categorically who is the better of the two, and I also think Van Aert belongs in that discussion even though people for some reason rate him far below his real level on this forum.

 

[DNP-Old]

So Tadej vs Remco fan wars are underway? I hope we will see more clashes between them, both in monuments and stage-races, and the next year should provide them. As for peaking Pogi won 2020 and 2021 Tours thanks to out of this world performances so opinions that he already peaked aren't groundless. That being said, Remco was already very strong in 2020 and can be close to his peak as well (his amazing progress this year was more of a "lower base" effect due to an earlier setback).

To engage in fan wars with Pogacar would mean to acknowledge him our equal, which he is not. Remco is the best by far, as told by Valverde, whose opinion and expertise certainly ranks higher than Harold75391's.

This should certainly get this thread some more replies.

 

[Extinction]

Look, just because you have ridden in the peloton for 20 years it doesn't automatically make you a guru in punditry.

Yes, it does, especially if your name is Alejandro Valverde. Granted Ryan has all the credentials of a roadside pundit, but first hand experience is something else. The point is that Ryan wrote that a few days ago, not in June. The fact is that things have simply changed, which makes Ryan's statement arrogant and without sense. If we're talking about the top performance of the year Vingegaard would have to take the prize on the Granon and for winning the Tour. If we're talking about the top rider of the year, then it's Evenepoel, as his Velo d'Or attests for winning a monument, GT and Worlds together. Hence we cannot say that Pogacar at present is the best rider in the World, unlike last year.

Valverde's statement regarding by far the best was given after Worlds, for which, given the minutes that separated Remco from all the rest, it was not an exaggeration. What this means for the future is anyone's guess. However, the differences in the high mountains will inevitably be contained, but those on other terrains and disciplines will surely ofter some interesting points of reference.

 

[Cookster15]

Yes what Valverde said was shocking. Remco was too strong in the Vuelta and his worlds ride was incredible. But there might be a hint of subjective bias though - AV always prefers his home grand tour and he wasn’t at the 2022 TdF. But I still hope to see Pogacar set the record straight in the 2023 TdF.

It sounds like Remco will skip the 2023 TdF?

 

[Extinction]

Yes what Valverde said was shocking. Remco was too strong in the Vuelta and his worlds ride was incredible. But there might be a hint of subjective bias though - AV always prefers his home grand tour and he wasn’t at the 2022 TdF. But I still hope to see Pogacar set the record straight in the 2023 TdF.

It sounds like Remco will skip the 2023 TdF?

Valverde is talking about the force he faced from Liege to Worlds. When Remco attacked from the front at Liege, Nibali tried to get on his wheel but said that it was impossibile because the Belgian was going 3 times as fast as everyone else. More or less he did the same at Worlds, by just riding everyone off his wheel. Pog is a prodigous rider, but he doesn't have that firepower on such courses. Then Remco also was capable of winning a GT in between, which evidently sealed the deal for Valverde. All that's missing is the Tour, which is the big test for him.

 

[Red Rick]

In fact, in a recent CN article Pogacar was matter of factly declared "the best in the world," which does fly directly in the face of what Valverde said about Remco. Now I suppose one has to decide whose assessment is to be deemed more knowledgable and worthy, Alejandro Valverde's or Barry Ryan's?

If former pros are always right because they're former pros we can delete this forum. Also I was shocked when Van der Poel didn't top 3 the Giro like Contador said he would.

 

[tobydawq]

Yes, it does, especially if your name is Alejandro Valverde. Granted Ryan has all the credentials of a roadside pundit, but first hand experience is something else. The point is that Ryan wrote that a few days ago, not in June. The fact is that things have simply changed, which makes Ryan's statement arrogant and without sense. If we're talking about the top performance of the year Vingegaard would have to take the prize on the Granon and for winning the Tour. If we're talking about the top rider of the year, then it's Evenepoel, as his Velo d'Or attests for winning a monument, GT and Worlds together. Hence we cannot say that Pogacar at present is the best rider in the World, unlike last year.

Valverde's statement regarding by far the best was given after Worlds, for which, given the minutes that separated Remco from all the rest, it was not an exaggeration. What this means for the future is anyone's guess. However, the differences in the high mountains will inevitably be contained, but those on other terrains and disciplines will surely ofter some interesting points of reference.

Okay, I don't really disagree with you in the Pogacar/Remco discussion but no, you're not a good analyst just because you have ridden professionally.

Take Bernhard Hinault for example. His "analyses" have always been the purest of excrements.

 

[Extinction]

If former pros are always right because they're former pros we can delete this forum. Also I was shocked when Van der Poel didn't top 3 the Giro like Contador said he would.

You're speaking nonesense now, as Valverde was active over the entire period upon which he was basing his assessment. By contrast, Contador never rode against MvdP and, if he had, would never have made such a ridiculous prognosis. The point is one foolish statement doesn't make them all idiotic and you know it.

 

[Extinction]

Okay, I don't really disagree with you in the Pogacar/Remco discussion but no, you're not a good analyst just because you have ridden professionally.

Take Bernhard Hinault for example. His "analyses" have always been the purest of excrements.

I think you have to consider the context. Often long retired riders simply are too attached to memories of their own era to be accurate pundits in today's cycling. But this is clearly not Valverde's case, a veteran who knows firsthand the power he was up against.

 

[tobydawq]

I think you have to consider the context. Often long retired riders simply are too attached to memories of their own era to be accurate pundits in today's cycling. But this is clearly not Valverde's case, a veteran who knows firsthand the power he was up against.

Perhaps. I could probably point to other examples, though.

 

[hayneplane]

Look, just because you have ridden in the peloton for 20 years it doesn't automatically make you a guru in punditry.

If Ryan had written that in June, nobody would have batted an eyelid.

It's too close to say categorically who is the better of the two, and I also think Van Aert belongs in that discussion even though people for some reason rate him far below his real level on this forum.

Van Aert is a beast of a rider but undeniably his tally of big wins on the road is yet to match his talent.

 

[tobydawq]

Van Aert is a beast of a rider but undeniably his tally of big wins on the road is yet to match his talent.

Yeah, that's true.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Maybe they can both be right. Maybe one is the biggest talent but not (yet) the best rider.

For instance, looking at one day big wins, Evenepoel won all his solo, but he has fewer of them (at least of the very top tier). Pogacar only won Strade solo, and won his monuments in a sprint.

 

[Red Rick]

You're speaking nonesense now, as Valverde was active over the entire period upon which he was basing his assessment. By contrast, Contador never rode against MvdP and, if he had, would never have made such a ridiculous prognosis. The point is one foolish statement doesn't make them all idiotic and you know it.

No the point is that former pro's opininos aren't arguments of themselves unless they provide their own arguments, which they often don't, or they're super basic.

You can certainly make arguments for Evenepoel over Pogacar, but "because Valverde says so" is not one of them.

 

[peterfin]

Van Aert is a beast of a rider but undeniably his tally of big wins on the road is yet to match his talent.

The remarkeable thing about Van Aert is his consistency in scoring podiums in basically all one-day races and time trials he enters and in all stages of 1-week races or GT's he decides to compete. It's why he is consistently top 3 in the UCI rankings next to riders like Pogacar, Remco or Roglic and generally with less race days in total. If we would value stage results a bit more than GC's, he would be the first on the ranking.

 

[Extinction]

No the point is that former pro's opininos aren't arguments of themselves unless they provide their own arguments, which they often don't, or they're super basic.

You can certainly make arguments for Evenepoel over Pogacar, but "because Valverde says so" is not one of them.

Are you saying Valverde's, who has raced against both over the last few years, is a baseless argument? That's rich. And what, pray tell, is any more convincing from all the pundits who have never turned a pedal against Evenepoel or Pogacar? You think a CN journo has a better idea than Alejandro?

I tell you what, when "it's Valverde saying so," I'll consider it worth my reckoning over more than just about anybody else's voice on the planet, because he's been at the top for 20 years and has first hand experience racing against both. You make it sound like he retired ages ago, instead of after Worlds and Lombardia. Over the next years we shall see how much Valverde's assessment holds up, but in the meantime he is unquestionably the authoritative voice.

 

[Andre]

Indeed if you peel off those three wins, he only won one WT race. People should measure their excitement a bit.

Why would you "peel them off"? That seems excessive and a little bit strange...no?

 

[mrgmyers]

None so far, because he hasn't won the Tour yet. Looking forward to the onions however

You said if he wins one tour, not one Tour de France! But nice body swerve fair play!

 

[Extinction]

The remarkeable thing about Van Aert is his consistency in scoring podiums in basically all one-day races and time trials he enters and in all stages of 1-week races or GT's he decides to compete. It's why he is consistently top 3 in the UCI rankings next to riders like Pogacar, Remco or Roglic and generally with less race days in total. If we would value stage results a bit more than GC's, he would be the first on the ranking.

True but winning monuments and GTs trumps consistency in winning stages. If you can win both monuments and GTs you are in another league. And because GC leaders don't go stage hunting, for their eyes are set on the bigger prize, they can win less stages then their real strength would otherwise permit.

 

[Big Doopie]

…Take Bernhard Hinault for example. His "analyses" have always been the purest of excrements.

You give me the badger. I raise you a cannibal. Eddy Merckx, the very worst analyst/prognosticator of all time.

 

[Big Doopie]

The remarkeable thing about Van Aert is his consistency in scoring podiums in basically all one-day races and time trials he enters and in all stages of 1-week races or GT's he decides to compete. It's why he is consistently top 3 in the UCI rankings next to riders like Pogacar, Remco or Roglic and generally with less race days in total. If we would value stage results a bit more than GC's, he would be the first on the ranking.

I remember well the great era of Zoetemelk, the best rider of the 70s and 80s.