Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

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hayneplane

Sep 4, 2017
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Berniece said:
WVA in TDF form can win Il Lombardia but only if it's not as hard as this year. He needs the right conditions, just like Pogacar can win Roubaix if the right riders aren't racing or are out of luck.

Remco has a huge engine, he mostly need to work on positioning and technique. The rest is already there.
Click to expand...
I disagree as I think Pogacar on 2023 Flanders form could also have won Roubaix against the full stacked field.
 
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kn0s

Jul 25, 2022
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Froome said:
No way, i don't know how could pogacar drop van der poel on paris roubaix. The tour flandres has some hills to drop van der poel. Paris roubaix is different. Even if van der poel could not drop pogacar on paris roubaix, he would win in the sprint.
Click to expand...
Yeah, Pog against Philipsen, MVdP, WVA and Pedersen, on the flat, good luck there.
 
Extinction

Extinction

Jan 8, 2020
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The fridge in the blue trees said:
The BS response is yours. But don't worry, I still know where to begin. At the start:


Really. IF you accept the premise of the post I was reacting to, which was Remco winning the 2020 Giro, then Alaphilippe winning Liège 22 is certainly less of a stretch. And as I said before, how Alaphilippe's results dropped off after his LBL crash is incredible. The Alaphilippe we saw in 23 winning Liège 22 is a huge stretch, yes, the one before his crash not.


No, it had a positive effect on his Vuelta 22. Many actually said he was going to win it here, it's hindsight that it was a foolish bet. He gained experience, unlike Pogacar he never even raced Avenir, which is not 3 weeks, but at least gives you 10 days experience. As for the rest of the season? He won left and right, Belgium, Denmark, Bruxelles. Dominated the EC with Colbrelli in his wheel, so Sonny won it. His season 21 actually was perfectly fine. Would NOT riding the Giro have made a major difference? I don't think so. After crashing out he was back winning almost immediately, Belgium. Olympics? WC? Lombardia? There was this crash 12 months earlier, which indeed did hamper his preparation. Despite that he came back strong, but maybe simply didn't have the legs for the long races with A-class opponents (He did well in the Giro vs A-class opponents though) Plus, some of his fans here, don't know if you, after the WC were convinced that Remco could have won that, if Belgium had just given him a co-leadership role. Which is it? Again, he beneifited from starting that Giro in the long term, while in the short term the effect was negligable. Had he waited for Belgium for the comeback, I don't think anything would have changed.
It clearly hurt his fans though. Seeing him start and not win. It's like GP des Nations last weekend. He shouldn't have started, after he arrived second. Why not. The one week longer in training didn't hurt him. Starting there shows his hunger for victories, a good trait, not a bad one. But it seems to have hurt some of his fans, that he started and didn't win.


And I wasn't restricting it to a speciality. But saying he's the best racer. Period. But ok, the discussion you had following pissed some of, so let's drop this. But have to say one thing: You can argue that Vingegaard is the best. But when you start posting stuff like this:


thus not arguing about Vingegaards strength, but claiming some weakness, diminishing Pogacar's accomplishments, results and talent, you lost the argument already.



This one is fantastic. Giro, Covid, yes. The especially going up against Jumbo.. hihi, that's a joke right. He didn't go up against Jumbo. He simply collapsed on the queen stage. It didn't matter that Vingegaard, Roglic and Kuss were among the 60+ riders who dropped him, he wouldn't have won this Vuelta without Jumbo either. It's a nice story, he went up against the dominating team of the year and was beaten. It's just not what actually happened. And of course they focussed on winning the GC in the Vuelta. And stages too. What else should they focus on? Or you meant the whole season? Well, Tirreno, Paris Nice (where Vingegaard failed) Catalunya, Pais Vasco, Dauphiné, doesn't sound too shabby really. Winning that without focussing on it, impressive even. Plus I heard rumours that they actually focused on classics too as a team, just that Van Aert didn't deliver in the monuments. They did well enough in the other races though..


Well, true, other riders have bad luck striking at the right time and in their cases it's a pattern that's beneficial... Dude, you even read what you write?

Yes, Remco had the Lombardia crash and bad luck with Covid.
The problem here is that some of you guys are so focused on Remco, and Remco only, that in the end you lose sight of what happens to other riders. See Alaphilippe crash in Liège, which made Remco's job much easier. Now he was the one and only leader. Or if you don't like Alaphilippe finally winning Liège, how about Pogacar not starting in 22? Crashing out in 23? What about Roglic and the Vuelta 22? He clearly wasn't at his best (no, when he crashed out he had already lost, he wasn't going to get back any time, or if, minimal in the remaining lulu-stages), after his TdF crash. A normal Roglic simply doesn't lose that amount of time to Mas in the first week . But in the end, it doesn't matter. Remco could only beat those that were there, that's what he did, he won, that's it. But, the same counts for all the bad luck strangely striking at the wrong time which surprisingly is not a beneficial pattern for Remco. He crashes he's out, if if if doesn't count. Every win by every rider can be called into question if we start arguing how others had some problem. Pogacar would have won the Tour if he didn't break his wrist. Froome would have won the Tour 19+20 without his crash. and and and. At some point it's ok to accept reality without having to claim that Remco's Lombardia crash has cost him 3 years now....

Bad planning, whatever, that's just what we hear each time when he doesnt' win. What should be changed? Can't remember anybody saying that maybe he should have skipped San Sebastian to be there 100% for the Vuelta. Ah, he won that, so can't be skipped. So it's just the Vuelta that shouldn't have been ridden? Or what exactly was the bad planning 23? 22? 21? For me his program should include RVV... but in the end actually Soudal and Remco have done quite well with their program. Twice LBL, World Champion, 3 times San Sebastian



The team doesn't need to win the Tour, Remco has to. Cycling is an individual sport, raced in teams. Pogacar won 20 basically without a team. He didn't need one, Jumbo controlled for Roglic. Same will happen in 24, the race will be controlled. And in the end Remco has to follow just one rider, Vingegaard. Now if Pogacar goes and Vingegaard can't follow, Remco feels he has it, ok, go after Pogacar, but otherwise the plan is exceedingly simple. Follow Jonas Vingegaard. He doesn't need Arensman-Thomas-Rodriguez pacing him up mountains. (Actually when in trouble he almost seems to do better without pacemaker, riding his rhythm until he finds his leg, instead of trying to follow the rythm of the guy ahead. Now if he wins the Tour 24, then yes, he will need a much stronger team for 25. But for 24? What he has, plus the additon of Landa is already much better than what Pogacar had 20.
Click to expand...
There are so many things I don't agree with here it's mind boggling. Firstly, I never said he would have won the 2020 Giro, which is impossible to know. However, his Lombardia crash cancelled not only that opportunity, but a botched rehab and then a precipitous decision to enter the 2021 Giro was a debacle. It did not prepare him for the 2022 Vuelta, but only set him on the back foot for the rest of the 2021 season, despite some victories (but also defeats) in B-rate events. So much so, that he was wasted tactically and performance wise in the Leuven Worlds that year. Alaphilippe was only to be applauded on the Leuven circuit for a sensational performance, but Belgium had a rider in Remco who that day should have been saved for the end and, I dare say, would have been the only rider capable of challenging Julian. So the effects of the Lombardia crash were devastating.

In hindsight, although this could have been easily predicted, Soudal should have given Evenepoel more time to prepare for his first GT in 2021 (which he entered with zero races in his legs, 0, only to come out of it with his ego wracked) and thus opted for a steady build-up to the Vuelta. 2022 could then have been a return to the Giro or a first time at the Tour. Yet things seemed to turn back on track with a Liege (where Alaphilippe, had he not crashed, would have been hard pressed to beat Remco, whose performance was irresistibile that day)-San Sebastian-Vuelta- WCTT streak. Bravo.

The course of events thus suggested a return to the 2023 Giro. Great. However, this meant another delay in going to his first Tour, an experience of which is seeming, despite his youth, to be overdue (considering had he ridden the 2020 Giro, he may well have gone to the Tour in 2021). Fine. But then when Remco appeared to have nailed his preparation as demonstrated in the opening TT, crashes and Covid struck ruining all the plans. Now it's a mess, so an inspired decision was taken to return to the Vuelta (not planned for 2023). Thrilling, although there was that inconvenience of having to go for the WCTT (while, in theory, defend his WCRR title too), all of this during the unusual period before, instead of after, the Vuelta. Did it ever occur to Soudal that Remco could not have adequitely prepared for the Vuelta mountains in sticking to those goals? Nope. And indeed Remco was left doing seven hour rides up multiple passes on the eve of the Spanish GT to try and cram for the exam. This never works. He only burried himself trying, as he himself admitted after the Vuelta, during which he totally blew up on the first critical mountain stage. The legs and, more significantly, his head were gone.

You can't plan like that and hope to meet your GT goals in 2023. The team doesn't need to win the Tour, Remco does? Right, but the team has to be capable of supporting his bid against those of Vingegaard, Pogacar and Roglic and, he, like them, must be optimally prepared to fight through the entire three weeks. Yet Soudal and Remco don't seem to realize how to consistently put it together. And the Tour is another level, for which your game needs to be raised, not dropped as we saw at the last Vuelta.

As for Vingegaard being the best GT racer at the moment, consecutive crushing victories at the Tour demonstrate this. Until Pogacar takes back the crown, Jonas is king.
 
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Froome

Froome

Jan 29, 2021
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Extinction said:
There are so many things I don't agree with here it's mind boggling. Firstly, I never said he would have won the 2020 Giro, which is impossible to know. However, his Lombardia crash cancelled not only that opportunity, but a botched rehab and then a precipitous decision to enter the 2021 Giro was a debacle. It did not prepare him for the 2022 Vuelta, but only set him on the back foot for the rest of the 2021 season. So much so, that he was wasted tactically and performance wise in the Leuven Worlds that year. Alaphilippe was only to be applauded on the Leuven circuit for a sensational performance, but Belgium had a rider in Remco who that day should have been saved for the end and, I dare say, would have been the only rider capable of challenging Julian. So the effects of the Lombardia crash were devastating.

In hindsight, although this could have been easily predicted, Soudal should have given Evenepoel more time to prepare for his first GT in 2021 (which he entered with zero races in his legs, 0) and thus opted for a steady build-up to the Vuelta. 2022 could then have been a return to the Giro or a first time at the Tour. Yet things seemed to turn back on track with a Liege (where Alaphilippe, had he not crashed, would have been hard pressed to beat Remco, whose performance was irresistibile that day)-San Sebastian-Vuelta- WCTT streak. Bravo.

The course of events thus suggested a return to the 2023 Giro. Great. However, this meant another delay in going to his first Tour, an experience of which is seeming, despite his youth, to be overdue (considering had he ridden the 2020 Giro, he may well have gone to the Tour in 2021). Fine. But then when Remco appeared to have nailed his preparation as demonstrated in the opening TT, crashes and Covid struck ruining all the plans. Now it's a mess, so an inspired decision was taken to return to the Vuelta (not planned for 2023). Thrilling, although there was that inconvenience of having to go for the WCTT (while, in theory, defend his WCRR title too), all of this during the unusual period before, instead of after, the Vuelta. Did it ever occur to Soudal that Remco could not have adequitely prepared for the Vuelta mountains in sticking to those goals? Nope. And indeed Remco was left doing seven hour rides up multiple passes on the eve of the Spanish GT to try and cram for the exam. This never works. He only burried himself trying, as he himself admitted after the Vuelta, during which he totally blew up on the first critical mountain stage. The legs and, more significantly, his head was gone.

You can't plan like that and hope to meet your GT goals in 2023. The team doesn't need to win the Tour, Remco does? Right, but the team has to be capable of supporting his bid against those of Vingegaard, Pogacar and Roglic and, he, like them, must be optimally prepared to fight through the entire three weeks. Yet Soudal and Remco don't seem to realize how to consistently put it together. And the Tour is another level, for which your game needs to be raised, not dropped as we saw at the last Vuelta.
Click to expand...
Soudal can put a very decent team that ensure remco has everything he needs in the Tour 2024. So, it will all be about if remco individually can follow vingegaard in the mountains.

Remco evenepoel
Mikel landa
Van wilder
Hirt/Masnada/bagioli
Alaphilippe/cattaneo
Remi cavagna
Lampaert
Asgreen

Soudal can't make 3 good teams for the 3 grand tours, but can make a good team for one grand tour.

This team has very quality, with very talented climbers and roulers.

Remco will not lose in the Tour because of his team. If he loses it's because he didn't have the legs, and above all, because Visma has a monster for three week races.
 
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Extinction

Extinction

Jan 8, 2020
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Froome said:
Soudal can put a very decent team that ensure remco has everything he needs in the Tour 2024. So, it will all be about if remco individually can follow vingegaard in the mountains.

Remco evenepoel
Mikel landa
Van wilder
Hirt/Masnada/bagioli
Alaphilippe/cattaneo
Remi cavagna
Lampaert
Asgreen

Soudal can't make 3 good teams for the 3 grand tours, but can make a good team for one grand tour.

This team has very quality, with very talented climbers and roulers.

Remco will not lose in the Tour because of his team. If he loses it's because he didn't have the legs, and above all, because Visma has a monster for three week races.
Click to expand...
"So, it will all be about if remco individually can follow vingegaard in the mountains." If it were only that simple. This is no longer cycling in the 80s, when a Lemond could do just that on ADR, when the fights were direct among the leaders. The big budget teams of today and performance science have created a program that generates beasts. First it was Froome, a laboratory product through and through (no doping intended) now it is Vingegaard. It seems to me that having the best legs in contemporary cycling is thus a multi-factor affair, backed at the Tour by the most solid team. I haven't seen a recent winner who has the legs on an insufficient team and wins the Grand Bouclé, almost as if the one is in symbiosis with the other. Evidently its a snowball effect, in which the strength of the leader grows in the strength of the team. And why that snowball gets rolling seems to be in obtaining absolute perfection in programming everything, in addition to having the big talent naturally. To topple Pogacar two straight years in a row, Jumbo-Visma did just that and so everybody is looking at them as they once did Sky (who with Froome toppled Contador in much the same way). Maybe Pog could get away with a bid for victory on less backing, but against Vingegaard with his backing, given the last two results, it's improbable. As for Remco, again, going for the Tour on Soudal seems insufficient, unless the Belgian team delivers on its promise to become amongst the best GT teams in the world in the science and programming of its goals.
 
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B

Big Doopie

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The fridge in the blue trees said:
The BS response is yours. But don't worry, I still know where to begin. At the start:


Really. IF you accept the premise of the post I was reacting to, which was Remco winning the 2020 Giro, then Alaphilippe winning Liège 22 is certainly less of a stretch. And as I said before, how Alaphilippe's results dropped off after his LBL crash is incredible. The Alaphilippe we saw in 23 winning Liège 22 is a huge stretch, yes, the one before his crash not.


No, it had a positive effect on his Vuelta 22. Many actually said he was going to win it here, it's hindsight that it was a foolish bet. He gained experience, unlike Pogacar he never even raced Avenir, which is not 3 weeks, but at least gives you 10 days experience. As for the rest of the season? He won left and right, Belgium, Denmark, Bruxelles. Dominated the EC with Colbrelli in his wheel, so Sonny won it. His season 21 actually was perfectly fine. Would NOT riding the Giro have made a major difference? I don't think so. After crashing out he was back winning almost immediately, Belgium. Olympics? WC? Lombardia? There was this crash 12 months earlier, which indeed did hamper his preparation. Despite that he came back strong, but maybe simply didn't have the legs for the long races with A-class opponents (He did well in the Giro vs A-class opponents though) Plus, some of his fans here, don't know if you, after the WC were convinced that Remco could have won that, if Belgium had just given him a co-leadership role. Which is it? Again, he beneifited from starting that Giro in the long term, while in the short term the effect was negligable. Had he waited for Belgium for the comeback, I don't think anything would have changed.
It clearly hurt his fans though. Seeing him start and not win. It's like GP des Nations last weekend. He shouldn't have started, after he arrived second. Why not. The one week longer in training didn't hurt him. Starting there shows his hunger for victories, a good trait, not a bad one. But it seems to have hurt some of his fans, that he started and didn't win.


And I wasn't restricting it to a speciality. But saying he's the best racer. Period. But ok, the discussion you had following pissed some of, so let's drop this. But have to say one thing: You can argue that Vingegaard is the best. But when you start posting stuff like this:


thus not arguing about Vingegaards strength, but claiming some weakness, diminishing Pogacar's accomplishments, results and talent, you lost the argument already.



This one is fantastic. Giro, Covid, yes. The especially going up against Jumbo.. hihi, that's a joke right. He didn't go up against Jumbo. He simply collapsed on the queen stage. It didn't matter that Vingegaard, Roglic and Kuss were among the 60+ riders who dropped him, he wouldn't have won this Vuelta without Jumbo either. It's a nice story, he went up against the dominating team of the year and was beaten. It's just not what actually happened. And of course they focussed on winning the GC in the Vuelta. And stages too. What else should they focus on? Or you meant the whole season? Well, Tirreno, Paris Nice (where Vingegaard failed) Catalunya, Pais Vasco, Dauphiné, doesn't sound too shabby really. Winning that without focussing on it, impressive even. Plus I heard rumours that they actually focused on classics too as a team, just that Van Aert didn't deliver in the monuments. They did well enough in the other races though..


Well, true, other riders have bad luck striking at the right time and in their cases it's a pattern that's beneficial... Dude, you even read what you write?

Yes, Remco had the Lombardia crash and bad luck with Covid.
The problem here is that some of you guys are so focused on Remco, and Remco only, that in the end you lose sight of what happens to other riders. See Alaphilippe crash in Liège, which made Remco's job much easier. Now he was the one and only leader. Or if you don't like Alaphilippe finally winning Liège, how about Pogacar not starting in 22? Crashing out in 23? What about Roglic and the Vuelta 22? He clearly wasn't at his best (no, when he crashed out he had already lost, he wasn't going to get back any time, or if, minimal in the remaining lulu-stages), after his TdF crash. A normal Roglic simply doesn't lose that amount of time to Mas in the first week . But in the end, it doesn't matter. Remco could only beat those that were there, that's what he did, he won, that's it. But, the same counts for all the bad luck strangely striking at the wrong time which surprisingly is not a beneficial pattern for Remco. He crashes he's out, if if if doesn't count. Every win by every rider can be called into question if we start arguing how others had some problem. Pogacar would have won the Tour if he didn't break his wrist. Froome would have won the Tour 19+20 without his crash. and and and. At some point it's ok to accept reality without having to claim that Remco's Lombardia crash has cost him 3 years now....

Bad planning, whatever, that's just what we hear each time when he doesnt' win. What should be changed? Can't remember anybody saying that maybe he should have skipped San Sebastian to be there 100% for the Vuelta. Ah, he won that, so can't be skipped. So it's just the Vuelta that shouldn't have been ridden? Or what exactly was the bad planning 23? 22? 21? For me his program should include RVV... but in the end actually Soudal and Remco have done quite well with their program. Twice LBL, World Champion, 3 times San Sebastian



The team doesn't need to win the Tour, Remco has to. Cycling is an individual sport, raced in teams. Pogacar won 20 basically without a team. He didn't need one, Jumbo controlled for Roglic. Same will happen in 24, the race will be controlled. And in the end Remco has to follow just one rider, Vingegaard. Now if Pogacar goes and Vingegaard can't follow, Remco feels he has it, ok, go after Pogacar, but otherwise the plan is exceedingly simple. Follow Jonas Vingegaard. He doesn't need Arensman-Thomas-Rodriguez pacing him up mountains. (Actually when in trouble he almost seems to do better without pacemaker, riding his rhythm until he finds his leg, instead of trying to follow the rythm of the guy ahead. Now if he wins the Tour 24, then yes, he will need a much stronger team for 25. But for 24? What he has, plus the additon of Landa is already much better than what Pogacar had 20.
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Oy. Have u ever heard the expression: “if I had more time, I would have written less.”

This is your second post in about a week where I cannot bother to read past one paragraph once I see it turns into War and Peace.
 
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Eddy Evenepoel

Eddy Evenepoel

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Froome said:
Soudal can put a very decent team that ensure remco has everything he needs in the Tour 2024. So, it will all be about if remco individually can follow vingegaard in the mountains.

Remco evenepoel
Mikel landa
Van wilder
Hirt/Masnada/bagioli
Alaphilippe/cattaneo
Remi cavagna
Lampaert
Asgreen

Soudal can't make 3 good teams for the 3 grand tours, but can make a good team for one grand tour.

This team has very quality, with very talented climbers and roulers.

Remco will not lose in the Tour because of his team. If he loses it's because he didn't have the legs, and above all, because Visma has a monster for three week races.
Click to expand...
I agree that the quality of his team mates is likely not going to be an issue.
(PS! Bagioli have signed for Lidl-Trek and Cavagna will go to Movistar)

The question of wheter Soudal-QuickStep as a team can support a TDF bid is in my eyes more about the preparations and training. The weight issue for what is needed for a great TT or a great climbing form is one thing that it seems like they've struggled with for years to get right.
 
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Berniece

Berniece

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Eddy Evenepoel said:
The question of whether Soudal-QuickStep as a team can support a TDF bid is in my eyes more about the preparations and training. The weight issue for what is needed for a great TT or a great climbing form is one thing that it seems like they've struggled with for years to get right.
Click to expand...
I don't understand why they focus so hard on the TT weight. How much time could he actually take, 1-2min over the whole GT. While with that weight he could lose much more in the mountains.
 
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Eddy Evenepoel

Eddy Evenepoel

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Berniece said:
I don't understand why they focus so hard on the TT weight. How much time could he actually take, 1-2min over the whole GT. While with that weight he could lose much more in the mountains.
Click to expand...
Agree. In say 60 km of TT, a bit extra weight give you a small edge, but that small edge cost a lot more in the big mountains.
Then you also have the opposite example, where he came into the Giro 2021 with too low weight and had no chance of keeping up for three weeks (also combined with no racing and suboptimal training leading up to the Giro because the Lombarida crash).
 
Froome

Froome

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Eddy Evenepoel said:
The question of wheter Soudal-QuickStep as a team can support a TDF bid is in my eyes more about the preparations and training. The weight issue for what is needed for a great TT or a great climbing form is one thing that it seems like they've struggled with for years to get right.
Click to expand...
I don't think they failed on that. It's the same team that made him win the vuelta 2022, and the same team that put in in great shape for the giro 2023, unfortunately he had covid.
 
Extinction

Extinction

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Froome said:
I don't think they failed on that. It's the same team that made him win the vuelta 2022, and the same team that put in in great shape for the giro 2023, unfortunately he had covid.
Click to expand...
I'll grant you the Giro debacle didn't allow us to see how the team was going for GC, however, this same team that helped him win the Vuelta is no gaurantee for the Tour, which is a whole different ball game.
 
O

Oldermanish

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Eddy Evenepoel said:
Agree. In say 60 km of TT, a bit extra weight give you a small edge, but that small edge cost a lot more in the big mountains.
Then you also have the opposite example, where he came into the Giro 2021 with too low weight and had no chance of keeping up for three weeks (also combined with no racing and suboptimal training leading up to the Giro because the Lombarida crash).
Click to expand...
TT'ing in a GT is a different animal. Unless it's a prologue that a specialist wants to win a serious contender needs to train their weaknesses rather than strengths. Remco losing a few pounds will not markably change his TTing but may help his climbing and overall endurance more dramatically.
 
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