Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[peterfin]

Reporter to Sven Vanthourenhout after discussing the Olympics where he coached Remco: "Congrats with your move to RBH. So you will work again with Remco?" Sven nodding for 10 seconds before saying that he cannot confirm it

 

[KoopaCycling]

I'd say

+1 monument
+1 Giro
+ 2 classics
+ 1 UEC TT
+ 1 important 1 week stage race

would very well be possible in a world where remco is in a good flow
Monument is the one i found hardest to add. But he was in a lead group of 6 in 2020. He came from winning Burgos where he beat topclass riders and Fuglslang won. Fuglslang was a good rider. But it's not impossible to think Remco drops him.

Ofcourse it's all conjecture. I mean we can debate if Pogacar ever reaches his current peak if he is met with 2 major injuries, hindering his development, tampering with confidence in himself and of the people in him. Let's say he crashes in his first GT. He never becomes third in that Vuelta. he needs a whole year to get back to his vuelta level.

He would then have a DNF after his vuelta instead of podium. No maiden TDF victory in 2020. Let's say he starts 21 with doubts and performs slightly worse than he did now. He then crashes hard again in 22. So no Tirreno win, no Lombardia win. He needs to rebuild and goes into 23 with doubts. He also never quit reaches his current level in 24. But gets back to his 21 level. He still got some room to grow.

Now obviously Pogacar is a great bike handler, and that's all conjecture. In reality Pogacar is a steamroller.

Those who think positive of Remco think his ceiling has been hampered. Those who think less positive think not much would have changed. We don't know it's conjecture. But you can't fault his fans too much for thinking positive given the palmares he managed so far despite those frequent setbacks.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Sorry, you said ‘ believe reaching pogi til 23 level could maybe be possible’

Before that , you said, ‘no one ever said that’ , with regards to potentially being on the level of Pogi, and that to say so is trolling.

Ridiculous that I have to ‘back myself up’ when you’ve already done it for me.

You are not capable of understanding much here, are you?

You act like these two things are about the same thing, while they are completely separate from each other. I’ll explain it for you one last time.

1) in the first post, when you are saying that Remcos fans believes he’s at the same level as Pogi/Merckx and that it’s ridiculous it’s clear for everyone that it’s performances/dominance/palmares over either the full career or the peak year that are in question. This is what I say no one (in here) have ever said. Because its clear for everyone that the difference on this level is huge and it would be ridiculous to believe there are no difference (which no one here does).

2) When I am talking about what Remco could’ve been without crashes and compares that with a version of Pogacar that is far away from the best version of Pogacar, it should be very clear that it is something completely different we are talking about. Because 2024-2025 Pogi is a completely different rider to what he was earlier, so therefore this comparison is completely different to the comparison in point 1, even if you here claim it is the same.

There is a very simple way of proving that these two things are completely different. If they are the same it would mean that comparing many version of Remco to any version of Pog would be impossible because every version of Pog would be better. And that’s very simple to disprove as Remco in 2022 was much better than Pog in 2019 for example (which makes complete sense also because Remco in 2022 was older).

And don’t come now once again with “you believe that, I believe something else and that is fine.” Yes that is OK, but it’s not relevant at all. The point is, these two types of comparison are NOT the same, and they don’t mean what you claim they mean when you say I backed up your claims.

 

[Charlyghoul]

You are not capable of understanding much here, are you?

You act like these two things are about the same thing, while they are completely separate from each other. I’ll explain it for you one last time.

1) in the first post, when you are saying that Remcos fans believes he’s at the same level as Pogi/Merckx and that it’s ridiculous it’s clear for everyone that it’s performances/dominance/palmares over either the full career or the peak year that are in question. This is what I say no one (in here) have ever said. Because its clear for everyone that the difference on this level is huge and it would be ridiculous to believe there are no difference (which no one here does).

2) When I am talking about what Remco could’ve been without crashes and compares that with a version of Pogacar that is far away from the best version of Pogacar, it should be very clear that it is something completely different we are talking about. Because 2024-2025 Pogi is a completely different rider to what he was earlier, so therefore this comparison is completely different to the comparison in point 1, even if you here claim it is the same.

There is a very simple way of proving that these two things are completely different. If they are the same it would mean that comparing many version of Remco to any version of Pog would be impossible because every version of Pog would be better. And that’s very simple to disprove as Remco in 2022 was much better than Pog in 2019 for example (which makes complete sense also because Remco in 2022 was older).

And don’t come now once again with “you believe that, I believe something else and that is fine.” Yes that is OK, but it’s not relevant at all. The point is, these two types of comparison are NOT the same, and they don’t mean what you claim they mean when you say I backed up your claims.

You said that he ‘might possibly have been at Pogacar in 23 level’ if not for crashes
I’m not talking about 24 or 25 level. I’m talking about what you said, do you want me to quote it again?
What is there to understand ?

 

[Oldman]

His Max-like, outspoken personality maybe something of value actually.

Max's personality isn't a specific attribute to Red Bull F1 as much as the cars and organization. Now that the rankings reflect a performance decline it seems he is primarily just surly. Remco engages with other riders and yes, does speak his mind but he doesn't spend much time bashing competitors and whining about his fate. I would say he's more marketable as long as he remembers he's on a team.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

You said that he ‘might possibly have been at Pogacar in 23 level’ if not for crashes
I’m not talking about 24 or 25 level. I’m talking about what you said, do you want me to quote it again?
What is there to understand ?

Yes.
But that doesn’t mean “Remco fans believes he’s the same level as Pogi/Merckx.”

 

[Charlyghoul]

You are not capable of understanding much here, are you?

You act like these two things are about the same thing, while they are completely separate from each other. I’ll explain it for you one last time.

1) in the first post, when you are saying that Remcos fans believes he’s at the same level as Pogi/Merckx and that it’s ridiculous it’s clear for everyone that it’s performances/dominance/palmares over either the full career or the peak year that are in question. This is what I say no one (in here) have ever said. Because its clear for everyone that the difference on this level is huge and it would be ridiculous to believe there are no difference (which no one here does).

2) When I am talking about what Remco could’ve been without crashes and compares that with a version of Pogacar that is far away from the best version of Pogacar, it should be very clear that it is something completely different we are talking about. Because 2024-2025 Pogi is a completely different rider to what he was earlier, so therefore this comparison is completely different to the comparison in point 1, even if you here claim it is the same.

There is a very simple way of proving that these two things are completely different. If they are the same it would mean that comparing many version of Remco to any version of Pog would be impossible because every version of Pog would be better. And that’s very simple to disprove as Remco in 2022 was much better than Pog in 2019 for example (which makes complete sense also because Remco in 2022 was older).

And don’t come now once again with “you believe that, I believe something else and that is fine.” Yes that is OK, but it’s not relevant at all. The point is, these two types of comparison are NOT the same, and they don’t mean what you claim they mean when you say I backed up your claims.

It’s completely relevant, it’s the whole point of the conversation.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

It’s completely relevant, it’s the whole point of the conversation.

The conversation is meaningless, because you created a strawman and then the discussion continues because you completely look away when people tries to tell you that is not what it is.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Yes.
But that doesn’t mean “Remco fans believes he’s the same level as Pogi/Merckx.”

No but some think, like you do, that he would have been ‘possibly on the level of the 23 Pogacar’ if this and that happened or didn’t happen.
I don’t , I think he never could have been on that level.

 

[Charlyghoul]

The conversation is meaningless, because you created a strawman and then the discussion continues because you completely look away when people tries to tell you that is not what it is.

Just because I don’t agree with you about Remco’s potential of a few years ago ?
I had finished the discussion but you came back talking about ‘ridiculous’ statements.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

No but some think, like you do, that he would have been ‘possibly on the level of the 23 Pogacar’ if this and that happened or didn’t happen.

And? It still doesn’t mean anyone thinks he is on Merckx/Pogacar level as you claimed people thinks??

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Just because I don’t agree with you about Remco’s potential of a few years ago ?
I had finished the discussion but you came back talking about ‘ridiculous’ statements.

It has NOTHINGN to do with Remcos potential. It has to do with you bashing Remco fans with some made up stuff about believing Remco is on the same level.

 

[Charlyghoul]

And? It still doesn’t mean anyone thinks he is on Merckx/Pogacar level as you claimed people thinks??

I think you’ll find if you read them that my main point in this thread has been people using the excuses of crashes, allergies, bad team, as the reason Remco never got to ‘Pogacar of 23’ .
You don’t seem to be able to grasp that.

 

[Charlyghoul]

It has NOTHINGN to do with Remcos potential. It has to do with you bashing Remco fans with some made up stuff about believing Remco is on the same level.

It has everything to do with it, why can you just not accept that I don’t think he ever would have been at that level, while you think he possibly could have (in your own words)
?

 

[Cycling111]

It has NOTHINGN to do with Remcos potential. It has to do with you bashing Remco fans with some made up stuff about believing Remco is on the same level.

I'm not saying this for you, but I think many have needed a fourth Pogacar Tour to reach this conclusion. Until now, I've seen a lot of conviction among many that this was the case.

On the Pogacar thread, up until a few weeks ago, there were several people thinking this way.
Amstel was the climax. Remco's statements, didn't help either.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

I think you’ll find if you read them that my main point in this thread has been people using the excuses of crashes, allergies, bad team, as the reason Remco never got to ‘Pogacar of 23’ .
You don’t seem to be able to grasp that.

I think that if you look back at what you have been writing this evening you will see that this is something you came to later.

Let me quote the post that started my involvement:

The fans of Remco seem to believe he is on a level of Pogacar and Merckx, that is even the title of this thread, and I disagree that’s all

This is what all my posts has been about,

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

I'm not saying this for you, but I think many have needed a fourth Pogacar Tour to reach this conclusion. Until now, I've seen a lot of conviction among many that this was the case.

On the Pogacar thread, up until a few weeks ago, there were several people thinking this way.
Amstel was the climax. Remco's statements, which fueled this thinking, didn't help either.

I think last year was enough for most when it comes to GTs. The level Pog showed last year, both in Giro and Tour was insane.

The difference between them is and has always been clearly smaller (but still clearly in favor of Pog the last couple of seasons) in long one day race with less climbing, like Amstel showed. I think it’s not unreasonable to believe that Remco can beat Pogi in some big one day races in the autumn or next season, but Pog will always be the favorite when they are both on the start line in good form.

 

[Charlyghoul]

I think that if you look back at what you have been writing this evening you will see that this is something you came to later.

Let me quote the post that started my involvement:

This is what all my posts has been about,

Ah well, we can both call each other out then can’t we.
Maybe best to leave it there ?

 

[Cycling111]

Remco's problem, and Ayuso could be another example, are high expectations. Without them, they would be considered as they are.

Although for the Tour Remco was being realistic when talking about the podium,but some fans ignored what he himself said and saw him as more of a rival to Pogacar and surpassing Vingegaard in the mountains. In Dauphine I also think there was a reflection.

 

[KoopaCycling]

I'm not saying this for you, but I think many have needed a fourth Pogacar Tour to reach this conclusion. Until now, I've seen a lot of conviction among many that this was the case.

On the Pogacar thread, up until a few weeks ago, there were several people thinking this way.
Amstel was the climax. Remco's statements, didn't help either.

i see posts like these and i think to myself only those bashing remco ever claimed this.

But i can be wrong. I do not follow pogacar thread as much.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Although for the Tour Remco was being realistic when talking about the podium,but some fans ignored what he himself said and saw him as more of a rival to Pogacar and surpassing Vingegaard in the mountains. In Dauphine I also think there was a reflection.

Who?

 

[Charlyghoul]

Remco's problem, and Ayuso could be another example, are high expectations. Without them, they would be considered as they are.

Although for the Tour Remco was being realistic when talking about the podium,but some fans ignored what he himself said and saw him as more of a rival to Pogacar and surpassing Vingegaard in the mountains. In Dauphine I also think there was a reflection.

I think junior results can be misleading somewhat too. Or lead to too much expectation like you say.
I raced ‘against’ some of the British guys who went on to do Tour de France like Kennaugh, you would think that from junior results he can be right there with the best but never really turned out that way.

 

[KoopaCycling]

People were and are still hopeful remco can get closer in the mountains. Reducing the time lost in the mountains by half would already be major.

 

[peterfin]

Max's personality isn't a specific attribute to Red Bull F1 as much as the cars and organization. Now that the rankings reflect a performance decline it seems he is primarily just surly. Remco engages with other riders and yes, does speak his mind but he doesn't spend much time bashing competitors and whining about his fate. I would say he's more marketable as long as he remembers he's on a team.

Remco is a team player so that will be fine. I was only referring to his outspoken personality that resembles Max a bit but not in a negative way of bashing competitors. Remco is a bit a "Dutch" Belgian. He says in all honesty what he thinks out loud. It's a bit uncommen for the average Belgian.

 

[Berniece]

Although for the Tour Remco was being realistic when talking about the podium,but some fans ignored what he himself said and saw him as more of a rival to Pogacar and surpassing Vingegaard in the mountains.

I haven’t seen anyone saying this. Can you quote them?