The revenge of Rasmussen ...

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sniper said:
but in the light of OP it makes more sense.
Recall that a doping positive would be particularly sensitive for Rabobank, with the bank's reputation being on the line.
Sure, but they are there to win. Not to play nice. Otherwise they would be all clean. And I don't think the difference between 1 or 3 BBs makes you test positive ;)
 
Jan 11, 2010
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sniper said:
seeing Rasmussen, you see a guy who's not putting anything under the carpet, anything. Full freedom in his eyes and mouth. the truth set this guy free.

"it's nice to be able to talk to people without having to lie".

quite a contrast with boogerd's 'confession'.
When you see Rasmussen, you see a guy who is trying to get 5 million euros in a case against Rabobank.

Not to burst the bubble or anything.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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theyoungest said:
When you see Rasmussen, you see a guy who is trying to get 5 million euros in a case against Rabobank.

Not to burst the bubble or anything.
not bursting any bubble. it's clear that he's in it for the money.
doesn't change the fact that his whole body language and tranquility and eye focus (not looking away, etc.) just screams truth and freedom.
cherrypick any random interview with any other cyclist being asked about doping, and you see major differences in body language.
 
theyoungest said:
When you see Rasmussen, you see a guy who is trying to get 5 million euros in a case against Rabobank.

Not to burst the bubble or anything.
That the thing I like the most about cycling. Cynicism. You dope because it's worth it. You come clean because it's worth it. I'd say it's the primary trait of cycling. Cynicism.

In many ways cycling reflects society brutally.
 
Dec 27, 2010
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Netserk said:
Really? There are ofc some surprises, but I don't think it is anywhere near jaw-dropping. I was surprised that they didn't want BBs in '07, and only one in '06.
Jaw-dropping in the sense of the matter-of-fact nature he just outed Menchov, for example. The actual doping is as expected, I agree.
 
sniper said:
but in the light of OP it makes more sense.
Recall that a doping positive would have been particularly damaging for Rabobank, with the bank's reputation being on the line.
It is plausible to assume that, on the whole, Rabobank have been more cautious with the supervision of doping than several other teams.
I am guessing it was a phonecall from Hein asking Team Rabobank to reduce the level of juicing.

and then we have rogue riders.....
 
Feb 3, 2013
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what a breath of fresh air.

Finally someone who talks openly and names names to the press.

Were you watching mr boogerd?
 
Sep 29, 2012
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So for 2012 we have 3 x GT winners:

Ryder Hesjedal - ex-Rabo rider 2002/2003
Bradley Wiggins - assisted by ex-Rabo doctor, Geert Leinders
Alberto Contador - ex-doper back from his suspension.

The peloton is all clean now, nothing to see, move along.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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GazelleFormula said:
Love the detailed account of Rasmussen. Good memory and he's not holding back at all.

http://nos.nl/liveblog/481559-rechtszaak-rasmussen-vs-rabobank.html

Rasmussen: Breukink told us not to use blood bags in the 2007 tour, after initially allowing it. Dynepo was not explicitly forbidden, it was stored in the team bus during the 2007 tour.
He was obsessive about his weight, I would not be surprised if he kept good diaries / documentation of all his cycling training and "preparation".
 
That interview is great. Rasmussen has always seemed very awkward but he is so calm now.

Menchov probably didn't get his 2nd blood bag in the 2006 Tour... first TT he was equal with Klöden but the final one he lost 4 minutes.

wow @ insulin, lucky Leinders was around to ensure safe practice.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
So for 2012 we have 3 x GT winners:

Ryder Hesjedal - ex-Rabo rider 2002/2003
Bradley Wiggins - assisted by ex-Rabo doctor, Geert Leinders
Alberto Contador - ex-doper back from his suspension.

The peloton is all clean now, nothing to see, move along.
Hesjedal only rode for Rabobank GSIII. If you want to make that sort of connection, US Postal and Phonak are better choices.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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hrotha said:
Hesjedal only rode for Rabobank GSIII.
Along with Bernard Kohl and Thomas Dekker. I was looking at links to the thread topic. His other team affiliations are, agreed, more damning.
 
hrotha said:
Hesjedal only rode for Rabobank GSIII. If you want to make that sort of connection, US Postal and Phonak are better choices.
Hesjedal has done the doping Tour of Duty. He just needs to ride for Astana and he has a full house of doped up teams.

Thank god he's clean :rolleyes:
 
Jan 11, 2010
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sniper said:
not bursting any bubble. it's clear that he's in it for the money.
doesn't change the fact that his whole body language and tranquility and eye focus (not looking away, etc.) just screams truth and freedom.
cherrypick any random interview with any other cyclist being asked about doping, and you see major differences in body language.
I mean to say: he has reason to lie. It will earn him money. His body language doesn't tell me anything, cyclists have a career-long experience at lying.

This is the reaction of Breukink, usually tranquility personified:

"This man hasn't changed in recent years. What a liar. That a.sshole is only after the money, it's horrible.

I've never talked about blood bags with him. I only told him to follow the rules, like I told everyone else. Everyone believes him now, because he came with a confession. But this is simply not true."

Now who do you believe? The guy with the cutest smile?
 
Before Rasmussen talked you would have assumed Breukink was involved to some degree. Thus Rasmussen could be inventing the whole thing but it would still not make you believe Breukink's "we like our credibility" defence.
 
Aug 6, 2011
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sniper said:
doesn't change the fact that his whole body language and tranquility and eye focus (not looking away, etc.) just screams truth and freedom.
cherrypick any random interview with any other cyclist being asked about doping, and you see major differences in body language.
Where did you get that training? Lie to Me?

In reality, that kind of interpretation of "body language" and eye focus is much more complex and dependent on the situation. There are no clear tell-tale signs of lying that can be interpreted unambiguously in any situation, even techniques, like a polygraph, used in court rooms in some countries have their flaws or are currently just unreliable. (There is no clear evidence that the polygraph is a valid and reliable instrument to detect lying.)

Those micro expressions, along with other signs in "body language" or eye focus, that seem to be very popular due to the tv-series "Lie to Me", are not much better. While they may indicate lying, they are not signs of lying itself. Above all, they are very dependent on preparation and (the lack of) rehearsal. At this point of time, Rasmussen has told his story so many times, had some much time to think about it, that all those signs became totally unreliable.

As compared to other interviews with cyclists, there are indeed some differences. However, we don't know if the differences are caused by the possibility that the other riders are lying and Rasmussen is telling the truth or because other riders don't always know when they are getting asked those questions while Rasmussen had the time to prepare himself for the interview for some time now.

Oh, and by all means, I don't say that it means anything, but Rasmussen has a different eye-blink rate to different questions (so the higher rate is not just dependent on bright television lighting). You might interpret that as him lying or being deceptive in some of the answer, but then again, it's not very reliable. Another thing, his facial expressions also differ, look at the lines on his forehead, the frowning in the split-second after he's asked some questions, but not others. Does that mean anything? I don't know, I don't think those signs are very reliable, if reliable at all, in the this situation.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Ferminal said:
Before Rasmussen talked you would have assumed Breukink was involved to some degree. Thus Rasmussen could be inventing the whole thing but it would still not make you believe Breukink's "we like our credibility" defence.
Agreed.

How many times a 'whistleblower' has been outed as a liar, as 'he lied in the past so probably now too', 'he has a drinking problem', etc etc.

Landis/Hamilton/Manzano.

Must be in the great omerta handbook.

Breukink worked with Saiz, saw Jaja evolve from a sprinter in a GT winner in 14 months and never ringed a bell, I do not like his credibility.

Of course Rasmussen is in it for the money, but, should that do anything to his credibility? Rasmussen was a crackpot, Rabo even got warned by Riiis FFS, and now they simply do not know? Laughable. No future in cycling for Breukink/de Rooij/Leinders.
 
Jan 11, 2010
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Ferminal said:
Before Rasmussen talked you would have assumed Breukink was involved to some degree. Thus Rasmussen could be inventing the whole thing but it would still not make you believe Breukink's "we like our credibility" defence.
But if you've followed Breukink a bit, this reaction is really out of character for him, which (if we're playing amateur lie detector) makes me believe him to some degree.

I don't know if Breukink has ever used the word 'klootzak' (lit. 'ballsack') about someone in his life.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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theyoungest said:
But if you've followed Breukink a bit, this reaction is really out of character for him, which (if we're playing amateur lie detector) makes me believe him to some degree.

I don't know if Breukink has ever used the word 'klootzak' (lit. 'ballsack') about someone in his life.
there is a lot at stake here for erik.
6 years for perjury, for instance.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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but i do feel for Erik
I'm willing to believe that, compared to the likes of Lefebvre and Riis (to name just two), Breukink has been a much more moderate enabler. Yet those two may continue as DS, while Breukink will have major problems finding a new job.
 

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