The revenge of Rasmussen ...

[neineinei]

It is from page 7 in Leipheimers affidavit.

There is nothing in the online versionof the NRC Handelsblad story that suggests it is from another affidavit of Leipheimer. The quotes seems to all be from the affidavit USADA published October 10.

 

[Race Radio]

Slightly more detailed link

http://translate.google.com/transla...t-met-(nieuw)-rabo-dopingverhaal#msg-16194788

 

[theyoungest]

Replacing Theo de Rooy by Erik Breukink is completely replacing the management structure?

You can do better.

That's actually not what happened, which suggests you're rather badly informed. Read up a little.

And I do think it is a good thing Rabo stopped the sponsorship of the pro-team, it is bad for buisiness to be associated with dope in sports. Numerous examples from the past prove this point.

To paraphrase Iwan Spekenbrink, the Argos-Shimano manager: it's not a good thing that one of the sponsors who were really trying to turn things around leaves the sport.

For the company, of course it's good. Cycling couldn't possibly have a worse image than it has right now in Holland.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

That's actually not what happened, which suggests you're rather badly informed. Read up a little.

Bad reply, prove what RABO did after the Tour 2007 or stop waisting my time.

 

[JRanton]

Slightly more detailed link

http://translate.google.com/transla...t-met-(nieuw)-rabo-dopingverhaal#msg-16194788

So Leinders was the doping ''mastermind'' at Rabobank, assisting riders with EPO, blood transfusions and creating ''training plans''. The Belgian Michele Ferrari you might say.

And Sky would have us believe they hired the guy to help treat saddle sores.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

So Leinders was the doping ''mastermind'' at Rabobank, assisting riders with EPO, blood transfusions and creating ''training plans''. The Belgian Michele Ferrari you might say.

And Sky would have us believe they hired the guy to help treat saddle sores.

He did cure Chrissie and his bilharzia.

Come on, Leinders has been on the scene since the eighties. Everyone knows him.

 

[theyoungest]

Bad reply, prove what RABO did after the Tour 2007 or stop waisting my time.

Isn't it obvious? Harold Knebel (who replaced De Rooij) got rid of basically everyone involved in the Humanplasma/Rasmussen story. Leinders, Boogerd, Dekker, Menchov, recently Breukink. He got the other riders who were mentioned (Posthuma, Weening) to testify in Vienna.

And for all this he had very little evidence to go on in the first place.

 

["Jeff"]

I think Michael B. is not sleeping well tonight. Kinda strange to see the biggest Dutch sports program talk about this while Boogerd is actually working for them as co-announcer. Tonight his own collegue talked about Boogerd's explanation that he only ordered "vitamins" in Austria and more.

I never understood why he or others kept lying. I understand they can't say what has happened but why did they ever respond on those allegations at all ? Of course if they dont = hidden confession but IMO its still better just to shut up instead of trying to convince the people they have done nothing wrong.

Michael Boogerd finished several times on the podium in L-B-L and the Amstel Gold. Some high finishes in the Tour as well. If he would have been clean, then he was a heck of a rider.

 

[theyoungest]

Michael Boogerd stelt tegen de NOS dat hij "geen kop van Jut wil zijn" in de dopingzaak rondom Rabobank.

De veertigjarige oud-renner van de bankiersformatie zegt dit op de vraag of hij ooit verboden middelen gebruikte. "Ga eerst maar eens bij mijn ploeggenoten langs, want als ik hier als enige ga zeggen wat ik allemaal weet, ben ik straks de kop van Jut."

That's certainly the closest thing to a doping confession we've heard from mr. Boogerd. "First ask my teammates, because if I sit here and say all I know, I'll be the scapegoat."

And then another anonymous rider who says to the NOS they said to each other after a disaster Tour in 2009: okay, so either we join or we quit. And they decided to join.

 

[Arnout]

That's certainly the closest thing to a doping confession we've heard from mr. Boogerd. "First ask my teammates, because if I sit here and say all I know, I'll be the scapegoat."

And then another anonymous rider who says to the NOS they said to each other after a disaster Tour in 2009: okay, so either we join or we quit. And they decided to join.

For the sake of clarity: not 2009 but 1999

 

[classicomano]

Well looks like someone finally blew the lid off the Rabobank doping program and Boogerd is all about ready to come forward, but only if the rest are.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

It's so sad people cant be honest while everyone knew in 2007 something was fishy at Rabo. Look how T. Dekker now is in the autobus every day in comparison to 2007.

Good thing Rabo stopped their sponsorship.

Thomas Dekker is at Garmin now. He is going to lose 4kg and improve his absolute power. Watch for a resurgence of squeaky clean performance in 2013.

 

[sniper]

...
And then another anonymous rider who says to the NOS they said to each other after a disaster Tour in 2009: okay, so either we join or we quit. And they decided to join.

this info must be false, then according to JV the peloton (except Ricco) called an anti-doping truce in 2008.

 

[Pentacycle]

That's certainly the closest thing to a doping confession we've heard from mr. Boogerd. "First ask my teammates, because if I sit here and say all I know, I'll be the scapegoat."

And then another anonymous rider who says to the NOS they said to each other after a disaster Tour in 2009: okay, so either we join or we quit. And they decided to join.

Well looks like someone finally blew the lid off the Rabobank doping program and Boogerd is all about ready to come forward, but only if the rest are.

Boogerd has just wasted his last bit of credibility he had with the vitamin-excuse he made up.
Why does the press in the Netherlands waste time on all these Rabo dope program bull****, they weren't even winning the big races. The Dutch press is chasing Rabo into their grave, that's what's happening now. And Herbert Dijkstra is playing along real nicely. Only the fact that the NOS has asked him as a 'cycling expert' for this one, is enough for me.

The problem I'm having with the assumptions you guys make about the team-wide 'doping program' is that the source is unknown,
it needs some clarifying before exaggerating the whole story. The main source for the whole Leinders story are a staggering 6 lines in USADA's file.

It seems to me the doping was rather focused on the Tour riders. Leinders was appointed to win yellow for Rabo, they didn't want to know how he did it.
As long as there weren't any positives, no one from outside the medical staff and some riders would have seen anything.
The DS's and the direction could claim the innocence of their riders as long as Leinders and the doped riders did their homework.

What gets me too is that T Dekker was seeing another doctor in Italy for his doping, but he won't tell anything about that.
I think the riders who were doping were mostly on their own, the only evidence of a big program at Rabo is one sentence from the USADA report
taken way out of context and everyone is losing their minds in the Netherlands...

 

[theyoungest]

Boogerd has just wasted his last bit of credibility he had with the vitamin-excuse he made up.
Why does the press in the Netherlands waste time on all these Rabo dope program bull****, they weren't even winning the big races. The Dutch press is chasing Rabo into their grave, that's what's happening now. And Herbert Dijkstra is playing along real nicely. Only the fact that the NOS has asked him as a 'cycling expert' for this one, is enough for me.

Yeah, I'm not too convinced about the super doping program story either, for the international audience: Dijkstra is a tv commentator who tends to be wrong about every single fact in a race, who has very little inside info, and who knows more about speedskating. So it would be somewhat suprising if he were the one to uncover what no one else has been able to uncover. That being said, at the NOS he's a colleague of Boogerd, so in that sense maybe a bit easier to talk to.

The other, anonymous source could just as well have been someone like Remmert Wielinga or something, so that's still up in the air.

What gets me too is that T Dekker was seeing another doctor in Italy for his doping, but he won't tell anything about that.

He has always denied it. That was what people in Holland assumed, "oh he went to the evil South and see what happened!" Cecchini was supposed to be the evil doctor who got him into doping. But Dekker himself said the source had to be found "closer to home".

I think the riders who were doping were mostly on their own, the only evidence of a big program at Rabo is one sentence from the USADA report
taken way out of context and everyone is losing their minds in the Netherlands...

That's absolutely true. The Dutch press are certainly obsessed by their very own team with their very own doping program, but that's the Dutch for you and their Holier than thou-mentality.

 

[sniper]

Boogerd has just wasted his last bit of credibility he had with the vitamin-excuse he made up.
Why does the press in the Netherlands waste time on all these Rabo dope program bull****, they weren't even winning the big races. The Dutch press is chasing Rabo into their grave, that's what's happening now. And Herbert Dijkstra is playing along real nicely. Only the fact that the NOS has asked him as a 'cycling expert' for this one, is enough for me.

The problem I'm having with the assumptions you guys make about the team-wide 'doping program' is that the source is unknown,
it needs some clarifying before exaggerating the whole story. The main source for the whole Leinders story are a staggering 6 lines in USADA's file.

It seems to me the doping was rather focused on the Tour riders. Leinders was appointed to win yellow for Rabo, they didn't want to know how he did it.
As long as there weren't any positives, no one from outside the medical staff and some riders would have seen anything.
The DS's and the direction could claim the innocence of their riders as long as Leinders and the doped riders did their homework.

What gets me too is that T Dekker was seeing another doctor in Italy for his doping, but he won't tell anything about that.
I think the riders who were doping were mostly on their own, the only evidence of a big program at Rabo is one sentence from the USADA report
taken way out of context and everyone is losing their minds in the Netherlands...

good post.
indeed, odd to go after those Rabo riders looking for confessions, when every sane guy on earth already knows damn well what happened at Rabo (and in cycling in general). If Boogerd doesn't wanna confess, let the guy be.

Journalists should report the facts, regardless of confessions, the facts being that Rabo's topriders were on the juice like all other podium contenders, and that Leinders was a facilitator and enabler, a guy who arranged things. Not at a Ferrari scale, but very apt in a more discrete way. Less prizes but also less positives on his palmares than Ferrari.

p.s. Indeed, asking Herbert Dijkstra as an expert on Rabo-doping is like asking PhilL Ligett as an expert on the Armstrong case.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Isn't it obvious? Harold Knebel (who replaced De Rooij) got rid of basically everyone involved in the Humanplasma/Rasmussen story. Leinders, Boogerd, Dekker, Menchov, recently Breukink. He got the other riders who were mentioned (Posthuma, Weening) to testify in Vienna.

And for all this he had very little evidence to go on in the first place.

Rasmussen: was fired during the 2007 Tour.
Boogerd: quitted in 2007
Dekker: let go in 2008 after a hell of a first half of the season [was still doping]
Menchov: 3th in Tour 2008, won Giro 2009, Vuelta 2007 etc etc, Knebel got rid of him?
Leinders: still there untill 2009
Breukink: let go because of the bad results

It is fair to say your arguments don't add up. The only thing that speaks for itself is the fact Boogerd was denied a staff place on Rabo.

Then the anonymous former Rabo cyclist who stated they only went on the epo after 1999. That would mean Boogerd was clean in 1998 when he was able to climb with the best of the best, ergo Pantani, Ullrich, etc etc? Yeah right.

 

[sniper]

Then the anonymous former Rabo cyclist who stated they only went on the epo after 1999. That would mean Boogerd was clean in 1998 when he was able to climb with the best of the best, ergo Pantani, Ullrich, etc etc? Yeah right.

perhaps what the anonymous guy meant is that they reconsidered after 1999: one could imagine Rabo decided to go clean after the Festina-affair, saw it didn't work well for them, and reconsidered.

 

[GJB123]

Rasmussen: was fired during the 2007 Tour.
Boogerd: quitted in 2007
Dekker: let go in 2008 after a hell of a first half of the season [was still doping]
Menchov: 3th in Tour 2008, won Giro 2009, Vuelta 2007 etc etc, Knebel got rid of him?
Leinders: still there untill 2009
Breukink: let go because of the bad results

It is fair to say your arguments don't add up. The only thing that speaks for itself is the fact Boogerd was denied a staff place on Rabo.

Then the anonymous former Rabo cyclist who stated they only went on the epo after 1999. That would mean Boogerd was clean in 1998 when he was able to climb with the best of the best, ergo Pantani, Ullrich, etc etc? Yeah right.

!998 was perhaps one of the cleaner TdF's remember after the Festina-debacle. A lot of riders were scared ****less after that.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

!998 was perhaps one of the cleaner TdF's remember after the Festina-debacle. A lot of riders were scared ****less after that.

A lot of the riders had also gone home.

 

[will10]

Rasmussen: was fired during the 2007 Tour.
Boogerd: quitted in 2007
Dekker: let go in 2008 after a hell of a first half of the season [was still doping]
Menchov: 3th in Tour 2008, won Giro 2009, Vuelta 2007 etc etc, Knebel got rid of him?
Leinders: still there untill 2009
Breukink: let go because of the bad results

It is fair to say your arguments don't add up. The only thing that speaks for itself is the fact Boogerd was denied a staff place on Rabo.

Then the anonymous former Rabo cyclist who stated they only went on the epo after 1999. That would mean Boogerd was clean in 1998 when he was able to climb with the best of the best, ergo Pantani, Ullrich, etc etc? Yeah right.

In fairness, most of "the best of the best" had already gone home by then.

 

[Pentacycle]

!998 was perhaps one of the cleaner TdF's remember after the Festina-debacle. A lot of riders were scared ****less after that.

They were only being more cautious afterwards. It was obvious that the stuff had to be transported in a more discrete way. There's no reason to believe the riders that did take part in that Tour were any cleaner than the ones on the teams that were caught.

 

[theyoungest]

Rasmussen: was fired during the 2007 Tour.
Boogerd: quitted in 2007
Dekker: let go in 2008 after a hell of a first half of the season [was still doping]
Menchov: 3th in Tour 2008, won Giro 2009, Vuelta 2007 etc etc, Knebel got rid of him?
Leinders: still there untill 2009
Breukink: let go because of the bad results

It is fair to say your arguments don't add up. The only thing that speaks for itself is the fact Boogerd was denied a staff place on Rabo.

You can find a reason for all of them, the fact remains that Knebel let all of them go, eventually. He investigated the Vienna story, nothing came of it. He investigated the riders and staff about the team's past, nothing came of it. What was the guy supposed to do otherwise?

Knebel went into it with the best intentions, and he fulfilled most of them. From within the team he's known as very strictly anti-doping, and using the measures to reinforce that. Unfortunately he was haunted by the ghosts of the past.

Then the anonymous former Rabo cyclist who stated they only went on the epo after 1999. That would mean Boogerd was clean in 1998 when he was able to climb with the best of the best, ergo Pantani, Ullrich, etc etc? Yeah right.

I don't see where that particular rider says Boogerd was clean before?

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

!998 was perhaps one of the cleaner TdF's remember after the Festina-debacle. A lot of riders were scared ****less after that.

That's also a way of looking at it but I remain sceptic about it:
Bobby Julich:

I made the decision to use EPO several times from August 1996 until July of 1998. Those days were very different from today, but it was not a decision that I reached easily. I knew that it was wrong, but over those two years, the attitude surrounding the use of EPO in the peloton was so casual and accepted that I personally lost perspective of the gravity of the situation.

During the 1998 Tour, my fiancé (now wife) found out what was going on from another rider's wife. She confronted me on it and it was one of the most dreadful experiences of my life. She was never a part of this and I put her in a very difficult situation. She told me right then and there that if it ever happened again, our relationship would be over. That was motivation enough and I knew I had to stop.

The Festina Affair changed everything for me. It reaffirmed for me that this was not only wrong and bad for my health, but also illegal with heavy consequences. In a strange way, I was relieved that the Festina Affair happened and was personally convinced doping would stop and that this problem would be over. I quickly realised how wrong I was.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/exclusive-bobby-julich-doping-confession

And he came in third, how about Rinero [never heard of afterwards] and his teammembers at Cofidis, the team that sacked good old Lanceboy?

Knebel went into it with the best intentions, and he fulfilled most of them. From within the team he's known as very strictly anti-doping, and using the measures to reinforce that. Unfortunately he was haunted by the ghosts of the past.

I am not saying Knebel doesnt has the best intentions, I was saying your arguments weren't that good.

 

[pmcg76]

I find the claims of this unknown rider a big unrealistic I have to say. No team doping before the Tour in 99!!

Rabobank were on fire early in the 99 season, 4 guys in the top 6 at Paris-Nice without a TTT!!! Then at the Ardennes classics, 3 in top 10 at Fleche, 4 at L-B-L and 5 at Amstel Gold including the winner Boogerd.

I remember there were stories that many teams had cut back on the doping in the early season but a few teams were not following the rest and were riding in a dominating manner and Rabobank were one of those teams. Kelme were another and F.Vandendroucke was a one man team that season. Maybe there were all doping individually really, really well.