The Role of TTTs in Stage Races

[The Hitch]

So why should teams exist in the first place? Shouldn't be better to have individual participation instead?

You do realize that on an road stage a rider can make up for his team weakness, by relying on other teams, or by working on his own if he must.

In a ttt if he puts in his own performance it wouldn't matter anyway because he still gets penalised.

Scarponi had a weak team in the 2010 Giro but he lost twice as much time in the 30k ttt than he did in the other 3000km of riding,.

 

[cineteq]

You do realize that on an road stage a rider can make up for his team weakness, by relying on other teams, or by working on his own if he must.

Yes, I have actually. Evans is a clear example

 

[The Hitch]

Yes, I have actually. Evans is a clear example

Obviously there's 1 better example

 

[cineteq]

No wonder they think a ttt is fair While PR is presumably unfair because its too biased to those cobbled riders.

What the heck!!! Typical Apples and Oranges Hitch's response.

 

[The Hitch]

What the heck!!! Typical Apples and Oranges Hitch's response.

You said the Giro was unfair because it had too many mtf's ergo unfair for none climbers.

So same logic dictates that PR has too many cobbled sectors and is unfair for non cobbled riders.

Don't confuse your fruit.

 

[Ferminal]

Yup, it was SOOOO boring in the Tour from 2006-8 with no TTT. Thank god they brought it back for the festival of excitement that was the 2009 edition.

Seriously, the 2009 TTT in the Tour should have killed it off for good. Farce.

For me the reason I don't like a TTT is because of this (aside from the fairness aspect):

Prologue > TTT
Mountain ITT > TTT
Long ITT > TTT

If you have a TTT, it generally means that you don't get all of the above three.

 

[The Hitch]

Seriously, the 2009 TTT in the Tour should have killed it off for good. Farce.

For me the reason I don't like a TTT is because of this (aside from the fairness aspect):

Prologue > TTT
Mountain ITT > TTT
Long ITT > TTT

If you have a TTT, it generally means that you don't get all of the above three.

Good point.

On the other hand, if the only riders ive heard of are Armstrong, Contador, Schleck then I can see them win because Ive heard of them so I want them to win.

Yay.

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

MTT are unutilized . makes me a sad panda.

 

[cineteq]

You said the Giro was unfair because it had too many mtf's ergo unfair for none climbers.

So same logic dictates that PR has too many cobbled sectors and is unfair for non cobbled riders.

Don't confuse your fruit.

So do you think the Giro 2011 and PR were/are fair then?

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

So do you think the Giro 2011 and PR were/are fair then?

PR is not a factor, it is a tradional cobbled race. One targets it having a pretty good idea what the parcours will be.

GTs are a different business. They can vary greatly, swinging the advantage one way or another. I too dislike these TTT. I don't mind them in a prolouge like manner (10-15km max). But at the same time I am biased towards mountainious courses, I love to see mountains atop of mounains in GTs, do I care if it is unbalanced? Honestly, no.

 

[craig1985]

There should be a TTT in the race but not every year. It should be a show of who is strong and who has the strongest teams to support them in a race. If you suck at it, do more work on it or hire guys who are good at the discipline (although EE can have difficulties at this), if you want to win a GT you should be able to show that there are more strings to your bow then only being good at climbing. That's why I like seeing stages with strong crosswinds and even cobbles or strade bianchi because it allows guys to get out of their comfort zone and show everybody where they are strong or weak at.

I agree with Timmy, but for me a MTT has to be a climb like the Kronplatz, none of this Nevegal rubbish where it didn't add much to the race IMO. I would like to see a Puy de Dôme MTT if it were viable in the Tour.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

There should be a TTT in the race but not every year.

This. Variety please. I love TTTs, they're both fair and a great spectacle.

But I also like a long, flat ITT, a prologue and a MTT. I like technical route and also something straight and uncomplicated. I'd also love to see a cobbled ITT and the underused ITT of a longish stretch of flat followed by a serious climb.

You can't do them all every year, but you can mix and match.

 

[gregrowlerson]

This. Variety please. I love TTTs, they're both fair and a great spectacle.

But I also like a long, flat ITT, a prologue and a MTT. I like technical route and also something straight and uncomplicated. I'd also love to see a cobbled ITT and the underused ITT of a longish stretch of flat followed by a serious climb.

You can't do them all every year, but you can mix and match.

Let's just have a GT with 6 or 7 TT's

I like your last suggestion the most. ITT of about 30 kms, finishing say on Arcalis for average length and gradient, or Mende for short and steep. Make for an interesting battle between the pure TT's and guys like Evans, Contador and Menchov.

 

[The Hitch]

There should be a TTT in the race but not every year. It should be a show of who is strong and who has the strongest teams to support them in a race. If you suck at it, do more work on it or hire guys who are good at the discipline (although EE can have difficulties at this), if you want to win a GT you should be able to show that there are more strings to your bow then only being good at climbing. That's why I like seeing stages with strong crosswinds and even cobbles or strade bianchi because it allows guys to get out of their comfort zone and show everybody where they are strong or weak at.

.

Theres more to it than just "hire a good team". Things that have nothing to do with a rider's ability get counted. Nationality for one. Some riders come from a country that has a good national team so they automatically get into a team with good ttt team. Hence they get a head start. Other, better riders might be less famous or come from countries without a national cycling team or without a national cycling team that has good tt riders so they get put in worse ttt teams, get eliminated from the race before it even starts.

And how many riders have the power to select a good tt squad. Schleck maybe and Wiggins. But even people like Cunego or even the Menchov, one of the top 3 gt riders of the last 6 7 years, don't have the power to just go select a good ttt squad.

That means most contenders have to choose a team that already has good tt riders in the first place.

But they usuallly don't even know if there is going to be a ttt next year when they sign. And looking at the sport as a whole, riders can't really go around selecting teams purely because that team might be able to field a good ttt squad one day.

I agree with Timmy, but for me a MTT has to be a climb like the Kronplatz, none of this Nevegal rubbish where it didn't add much to the race IMO. I would like to see a Puy de Dôme MTT if it were viable in the Tour

Nvegal had several 10% sections. It was better than Kronplatz in some ways, as a flat section is a good thing.

Kronplatz is special because it can't be done 180 riders at once so they do it as a tt/

 

[Libertine Seguros]

PR is not a factor, it is a tradional cobbled race. One targets it having a pretty good idea what the parcours will be.

GTs are a different business. They can vary greatly, swinging the advantage one way or another. I too dislike these TTT. I don't mind them in a prolouge like manner (10-15km max). But at the same time I am biased towards mountainious courses, I love to see mountains atop of mounains in GTs, do I care if it is unbalanced? Honestly, no.

I think that the 2011 Giro and by the looks of it the 2012 Vuelta are too unbalanced however, and lord knows I love me some mountains. The big problem is that by not disadvantaging the climbers enough, there's no incentive to create exciting racing in the mountains. Hence we need time trials.

However, I don't see what's wrong with an ITT that a TTT can't solve. A 15-20km TTT could just as well be a prologue, and a 30-40km TTT may as well be a mid-length ITT, and let the riders' own abilities against the clock dictate their position, not the abilities of some random rouleur domestique, as this so clearly favours the big-budget teams it's ridiculous, especially considering they usually have better quality teams due to the high budget and have better resources and support, without further biasing things towards them. As Hitch said, Michele Scarponi lost more time in the 30km of TTT in the 2010 Giro than he lost in the other 3000km combined. Why? Because he was reliant on the TT skills of Jackson Rodríguez, Cameron Wurf and José Serpa. Do we think that Ivan Basso would take 2'24" out of Michele Scarponi in an ITT?

I'm not actually in favour of mountain ITTs, except in situations where an actual race to the top would be impractical (Kronplatz) or if the climb is rubbish and the race would otherwise be boring with 20 guys coming in at the same time (Arcalis, Serfaus). I prefer the idea of a tough ITT with a lot of flat or rolling mileage but also some smaller climbs. Perhaps a 40km ITT around Mende finishing with that climb up Montée Laurent Jalabert would be good; I suppose I could refer people to the Cinque Terre one, or the Stage 10 Córdoba ITT in my fantasy Vuelta in the Race Design thread, for the kind of thing I'm looking for. Put in a long, hard TT like that and you don't NEED to have another long TT, because the gaps are already created for you. And what you most certainly don't need is a TTT.

 

[cineteq]

As Hitch said, Michele Scarponi lost more time in the 30km of TTT in the 2010 Giro than he lost in the other 3000km combined. Why? Because he was reliant on the TT skills of Jackson Rodríguez, Cameron Wurf and José Serpa. Do we think that Ivan Basso would take 2'24" out of Michele Scarponi in an ITT?

There is also the other side of the coin. So why good teams should be penalized because Scarponi does not have a good team? So there should be no TTT because 2nd class or your favorite riders don't have good teams? Bring it on, I want to see variety and different tactics come to play.

Face it, accept it. There will be a TTT in 2013 TdF, and it's nothing you can do about it.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

There is also the other side of the coin. So why good teams should be penalized because Scarponi does not have a good team? So there should be no TTT because 2nd class or your favorite riders don't have good teams? Bring it on, I want to see variety and different tactics come to play.

Face it, accept it. There will be a TTT in 2013 TdF, and it's nothing you can do about it.

Good teams already get enough reward by being able to provide their team leaders with better support. Scarponi is already punished by being isolated against Basso, Nibali and a strong set of backups including Kiserlovski and Szmyd, without giving them a 2 and a half minute headstart because Jackson Rodríguez can't TT very well.

There should be no TTT because 2nd-rate TTers will be penalised enough by an ITT, without the additional one, and also a crap ITT rider can ruin things for his whole team (if J-Rod rides in support of Menchov, do they crap him out or do they jeopardise Menchov's chances for him?) as well as being pulled along by a strong team (Basso never puts 2'24" into Scarponi in a 30km ITT).

It's too easy to completely skew out the results with a TTT of any decent length and encourages defensive riding and only serves to increase the gulf between moneyed and less moneyed teams. It should be a prologue or nothing at all.

It should be contested over 4km on a velodrome.

 

[cineteq]

It's too easy to completely skew out the results with a TTT of any decent length and encourages defensive riding and only serves to increase the gulf between moneyed and less moneyed teams. It should be a prologue or nothing at all.

Teams a part of the professional road cycling, thus TTTs have a place in races. Teams know in advance, in this case well in advance for 2013 TdF's TTT, they have plenty of time to prepare. If they feel handicapped they should either not participate or prepare for it. The results are not more skewed from those having 3 consecutive MTF stages in a row.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Teams a part of the professional road cycling, thus TTTs have a place in races. Teams know in advance, in this case well in advance for 2013 TdF's TTT, they have plenty of time to prepare. If they feel handicapped they should either not participate or prepare for it. The results are not more skewed from those having 3 consecutive MTF stages in a row.

They ARE more skewed, on the basis that the MTF stages are based on where a rider was able to finish, the TTT is based on where a rider's domestiques were able to finish. Remember Vino dropping all his own domestiques in that same Giro TT and riding to the line solo? He shouldn't be punished for being stronger than his teammates - that's the entire point of him being the leader.

If you want to redress the balance from putting 3 consecutive MTFs in, then put another ITT in, for christ's sake. It's not that difficult to create a balanced route without having to resort to track stuff.

I mean, you could redress it by having a cyclocross stage, or a keirin, if you want to resort to gimmickry.

 

[will10]

Even if you were severely restricted, Id trust you to include a good enough balance between tts and mountains. To be fair I think half the forum could manage it but Christian seems as yet, incapable.

That sounds like a good challenge for Libertine on the Race Design thread - what is the best Tour de France route he can come up with, using only the 2012 start and finish towns?

 

[The Hitch]

There is also the other side of the coin. So why good teams should be penalized because Scarponi does not have a good team?
So there should be no TTT because 2nd class or your favorite riders don't have good teams?

Riders are being penalized by not being given head-starts?

I guess doping control also penalizes riders. Why should Ricco get penalized because other riders arent willing to go as far as him?

Face it, accept it. There will be a TTT in 2013 TdF, and it's nothing you can do about it.

Clear trolling.

Blatant lying, baiting, or teasing other members will not be tolerated.

 

[gregrowlerson]

The issue of to TTT, or not to TTT...

Very difficult.

There is tradition there, and road cycling is a team (as well as individual) sport. Maybe if TTT should not exist, then maybe no teams should exist either?

I actually like the team aspect of the sport though, so I wouldn't agree with this happening (a teammate helping another on a bad day, the tactics of sending a domestique up the road in the breakaway, etc, the team aspect creates of lot of positive for road cycling).

Whilst a TTT is at times unfair (see Cadel Evans TDF '09), it is possible that it can add to the intrigue of the GC. It's kind of like a lesser rider gaining a chunk of time in a breakaway, or a crash costing a favourite some time - it's another variable that can change the face of the GC situation, making it less predictable.

So for me, perhaps we have a TTT in the TDF once every two or three years; and if you are going to have one, then make it significant, rather than just a bit of confectionary. They used to have 60, 70 km TTT's, and whilst unfair on some riders, I think that the return of such a stage would be exciting for fans, as the GC could get turned upside down. I still think that the GT's each year should offer varying parcours, and that the riders should select their racing season based around this (see Andy Schleck Giro 2012), so in a year when one GT has a long TTT, a rider should focus on another GT if he has a weak TTT team.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Here are the top 4 teams of the TTT in the 2009 Tour:

Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Liquigas

Here are the teams of the top 10 riders on the GC at that race:

Astana
Saxo Bank
Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Astana
Liquigas
Garmin
Liquigas
Française des Jeux

Apart from Le Mevel, who got that position thanks to a break away, the entire top 10, all came from the same four teams that had finished in positions 1-4 on the TTT. That's just as bad an imbalance as the 2011 Giro.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Here are the top 4 teams of the TTT in the 2009 Tour:

Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Liquigas

Here are the teams of the top 10 riders on the GC at that race:

Astana
Saxo Bank
Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Astana
Liquigas
Garmin
Liquigas
Française des Jeux

Apart from Le Mevel, who got that position thanks to a break away, the entire top 10, all came from the same four teams that had finished in positions 1-4 on the TTT. That's just as bad an imbalance as the 2011 Giro.

Good observation. And if Levi hadn't crashed out it would have been the entire top 10

 

[The Hitch]

Here are the top 4 teams of the TTT in the 2009 Tour:

Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Liquigas

Here are the teams of the top 10 riders on the GC at that race:

Astana
Saxo Bank
Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Astana
Liquigas
Garmin
Liquigas
Française des Jeux

And even among the top 10, Wiggins ahead of Frank, Frank ahead of Kloeden, Kreuziger ahead of Le Mevel, all thanks to the ttt.