The Role of TTTs in Stage Races

[Libertine Seguros]

I think the Albi and Cholet ITTs had a better impact than the Montpellier and Les Essarts TTTs. Purely subjective mind you.

Yes, but those were at least FAIR, in that a rider got his true time. That's what my argument has been throughout - if you want to balance out the mountains against the clock, then what's wrong with the ITT, since that's a much better representation of a rider's true abilities against the clock, rather than giving them a free ride because they have a strong team (eg the Schlecks) or penalising them because some of their domestiques aren't as strong against the clock as them (eg Menchov, Scarponi).

 

[Ferminal]

Yes, but those were at least FAIR, in that a rider got his true time. That's what my argument has been throughout - if you want to balance out the mountains against the clock, then what's wrong with the ITT, since that's a much better representation of a rider's true abilities against the clock, rather than giving them a free ride because they have a strong team (eg the Schlecks) or penalising them because some of their domestiques aren't as strong against the clock as them (eg Menchov, Scarponi).

Don't be silly, every GC rider needs to ride for a top10 team with an accommodating budget, if they don't it's their fault they will never win a stage race (in every-race-has-a-TTT World).

 

[cineteq]

Yes, but those were at least FAIR, in that a rider got his true time. That's what my argument has been throughout - if you want to balance out the mountains against the clock, then what's wrong with the ITT

Nothing is wrong with ITTs. We want to see more variables, not just ITTs and MTFs [yawn]. I want cobbles, technical descent finishes, TTTs. Road cycling is a team sport, as well, so this is an opportunity for a team to contribute to the race and its GC leader.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Nothing is wrong with ITTs. We want to see more variables, not just ITTs and MTFs [yawn]. I want cobbles, technical descent finishes, TTTs. Road cycling is a team sport, as well, so this is an opportunity for a team to contribute to the race and its GC leader.

Cobbles, yes. Technical descent finishes, most definitely. Needs to be more of those. And a lot of the best stages of recent years have been 'easy' climbs or short climbs (eg into Briançon) after difficult climbs and a descent.

TTTs, no. I don't see that they add anything to the race that an ITT couldn't do better.

 

[Another_Dutch_Guy]

I think a 20K TTT is OK. We shouldn't forget that the peloton also needs to travel from Corse to Nice the same day. Propably there is not enough time left for a proper stage or an ITT?

 

[The Hitch]

Don't be silly, every GC rider needs to ride for a top10 team with an accommodating budget, if they don't it's their fault they will never win a stage race (in every-race-has-a-TTT World).

I don't see how its rider's faults if they don't ride for a top 10 team.

A rider might for example have had a few injuries so no top 10 team wants him and when he comes back and gets an injury free season, and manages to hang on in the mountains due to the fact that its up to him what his time is, its a bit unfair to say to them, "ah, sorry mate, should have had a better team".

 

[maltiv]

I don't see how its rider's faults if they don't ride for a top 10 team.

A rider might for example have had a few injuries so no top 10 team wants him and when he comes back and gets an injury free season, and manages to hang on in the mountains due to the fact that its up to him what his time is, its a bit unfair to say to them, "ah, sorry mate, should have had a better team".

That's not only the case in TTTs though, not like teammates aren't important elsewhere. Samuel Sanchez could have finished higher up on the GC in this years tour (Contador too) if their respective teams had some really strong rouleurs with them to reduce the gap in stage 1.

Personally I don't mindt TTTs as long as they're less than 30 kilometers, anything more than that and the difference gets too big.

 

[The Hitch]

That's not only the case in TTTs though, not like teammates aren't important elsewhere. Samuel Sanchez could have finished higher up on the GC in this years tour (Contador too) if their respective teams had some really strong rouleurs with them to reduce the gap in stage 1.

Personally I don't mindt TTTs as long as they're less than 30 kilometers, anything more than that and the difference gets too big.

At least they were given their own time. Like in 2010 Giro when Cuddles was in pink, stuck behind a crash and there were no teammates so he just went for it himself.

He was satisfied that he had been able to limit his losses. Now imagine if you turned around and told him, sorry Cadel, technically you have not finished until 4 more members of your team cross the line.

He may as well have just waited in Holland for the TDF to roll by, like the rest of his team.

 

[greenedge]

I think the role is to split the field. It also encourages teamwork. Though i don't like that some teams ( EE ) are disadvantaged. However if they did a TTT with a few climbs in it that might redress the balance. Also it encourages teams to not be one-dimensional.

 

[greenedge]

That's not only the case in TTTs though, not like teammates aren't important elsewhere. Samuel Sanchez could have finished higher up on the GC in this years tour (Contador too) if their respective teams had some really strong rouleurs with them to reduce the gap in stage 1.

Richie Porte 5th in the TDF ITT is not a strong rouleur how???

 

[Thomsena]

I've always enjoyed what is said to be the hardest disciplin in sport of cycling. (unless you are horrible against the clock yourself and have Spartacus to do your work of course...)

 

[Coppi'sLaughter]

Surely the point is that there are different disciplines in the sport! Isn't there an argument to say that TTTs make races more exciting... Yes, riders like Sammy Sanchez might suffer but then they have to chase or go for other goals (plus I'm sure many other teams would take him if he wanted to go to a new rounded squad)

Personally I'd like to see more mountains and less flat and ITT (although I am a fan of mountain TTs) stages in GTs (more like the Giro than the Tour...) but that would make it one dimensional and boring for others. And what about the specialists? Nowhere to practice their skills!

Cycling is ultimately a team sport in many ways, so the strength of the team is shown in the other disciplines too. Cav needs his team to help him win, the climbers need theirs to help gain time in the mountains. As epic as it was A Schleck wouldn't have made it with his break to the Galibier without Monfort and to a much lesser degree Postuma. So how then is a TTT less fair when team support always changes races for good and bad...?

 

[Richeypen]

Richie Porte 5th in the TDF ITT is not a strong rouleur how???

I would not class Porte as a rouleur in the slightest. Being a good timetrialist does not necessarily make you a good rouleur.

Would you class Menchov, Brajkovič, S Sanchez, Contador etc as rouleurs?

 

[Ferminal]

Porte is too small for a TTT?

 

[King Of The Wolds]

TTTs, no. I don't see that they add anything to the race that an ITT couldn't do better.

Firstly, regardless of your thoughts on their effect on GC, they're a better spectacle. Often, in a long ITT, we don't even get to see the major protagonists, as they're some way down in GC, and start their effort before the transmission begins. With the TTT we get to see every team ride. And watching the better TTT teams is a beautiful sight.

Secondly, they add an additional element of team work that ITT doesn't have. And last time I checked, cycling was a team sport.

 

[Ferminal]

And last time I checked, cycling was a team sport.

...and the last time I checked the general classification in a stage race was awarded to an individual.

We can all make stupid comments like ours, but it depends on one's interpretation about the role of a team.

Some weird ideas:

Each rider gets their transponder time, not 5th man, could create some interesting tactics (but probably even harder for those on weaker teams).

Team Relay - a circuit where teams race against one another (not the clock) one man at a time.

 

[The Hitch]

Cycling is ultimately a team sport in many ways, so the strength of the team is shown in the other disciplines too. Cav needs his team to help him win, the climbers need theirs to help gain time in the mountains. As epic as it was A Schleck wouldn't have made it with his break to the Galibier without Monfort and to a much lesser degree Postuma. So how then is a TTT less fair when team support always changes races for good and bad...?

The teams ability to help is reflected in other stages, not their individual performances.

Cav needs his team to bring back a break but Greipels doesnt have the team for it so he relies on Cavs team.

Or should we not allow Greipel to sprint because his team didn't do enough work.

Similarly, Schleck can have 6 domestiques on a mountain, but Menchov or Sanchez with 0 can follow them

 

[King Of The Wolds]

The teams ability to help is reflected in other stages, not their individual performances.

Cav needs his team to bring back a break but Greipels doesnt have the team for it so he relies on Cavs team.

Or should we not allow Greipel to sprint because his team didn't do enough work.

Similarly, Schleck can have 6 domestiques on a mountain, but Menchov or Sanchez with 0 can follow them

What does 'ability to help' mean, or rather, why is it different for stage races?

A team has the ability to help in TTTs. A team has the ability to help if a rider has a mechanical and needs to be TTT'd back to the bunch. A team has the ability to help if a rider crashes and one of the team convinces the peleton to neutralise. A team has the ability to help by being good enough to get into a break and then, when caught, being good enough to pull along a leader who's struggling. A team has the ability to help be being good enough to stay with a leader for as long as possible and carry his bottles for him. None of which are related to influencing riders on other teams as your post suggested.

There really is no difference between having a strong team for the TTT and any of the other examples I've given. It's a team sport and the GC, whilst collected by an individual, is a team sport given to the strongest individual on that team.

 

[Thomsena]

I agree that TTT's should not be too long. But to remove them totally is wrong. It's a beautiful, demanding and the most exhausting discipline of the sport.

 

[The Hitch]

Whats perhaps most laughable is that the TDF doesn't have time bonuses because they "unfair" but include ttts.

Why give bonuses to riders who can win, when you can instead give them to riders on rich teams?

What does 'ability to help' mean, or rather, why is it different for stage races?.

It means that the most they can offer him is help. They can't win the race for him however, nor will they stop him from winning by being poor, as he then just ignores them

In ttts on the other hand, its not help, its dependence. His entire fate is tied to them including his time.

 

[taiwan]

For an entertaining race, a close contest is desirable. Loads of examples of situations where a strong team helps have already been mentioned. A TTT is just an extra advantage for a strong team. It makes the racing more predictable because you know who the strong teams are.

Also it's a handicap for pro conti teams at a GT, one of the limited high profile races they can participate in.

Also you can say it's a team sport, but I don't see the merit in putting a weak rider from a strong team in a leader's jersey.

 

[taiwan]

I agree that TTT's should not be too long. But to remove them totally is wrong. It's a beautiful, demanding and the most exhausting discipline of the sport.

That sounds like a case for seperate TTT events. If you want to see them for their own sake, but don't want them to affect the outcome of a stage race, that seems the way to go.

 

[cineteq]

Whats perhaps most laughable is that the TDF doesn't have time bonuses because they "unfair" but include ttts.

Bring on the time bonuses as well!
I wonder if your protégé Samuel Sanchez had a strong team you would even be making comments on TTTs...

 

[cineteq]

...and the last time I checked the general classification in a stage race was awarded to an individual.

Last time I checked an individual cannot enter a stage-race without a team...

 

[The Hitch]

Bring on the time bonuses as well!
I wonder if your protégé Samuel Sanchez had a strong team you would even be making comments on TTTs...

They would still be unfair, so yes

Don't make the mistake of thinking everyone is as narrow-minded as you and would arrange the entire cycling rule book around whether it fits a certain rider or not.