The Role of TTTs in Stage Races

[Ferminal]

Here are the top 4 teams of the TTT in the 2009 Tour:

Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Liquigas

Here are the teams of the top 10 riders on the GC at that race:

Astana
Saxo Bank
Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Astana
Liquigas
Garmin
Liquigas
Française des Jeux

Apart from Le Mevel, who got that position thanks to a break away, the entire top 10, all came from the same four teams that had finished in positions 1-4 on the TTT. That's just as bad an imbalance as the 2011 Giro.

It also killed the race for Evans & Menchov (yes I realise they fell to bits in the Alps, but let me make the point).

If you want to achieve balance with the climbing, do it with Individual Time Trials, not team ones. Evans & Menchov, who were traditionally stronger TTers who managed their losses in the mountains, found themselves in deficit after the time trial. From this point there was nothing reasonable they could do to get time back before Annecy.

Whereas the traditional order says pure climbers are the ones who lose time against the clock, and have to attack in the high country.

Point is, an ITT is a far more reliable and effective tool if your aim is to achieve balance with the mountains.

 

[craig1985]

The teams who spend time on their TT bikes and do TTT practice at training camps are the ones who do well at them and those do none, suck at it. I like to see a battle of the strongest teams, if GC guys are punished for it, then ride aggressively in the mountains to make up time.

 

[The Hitch]

The teams who spend time on their TT bikes and do TTT practice at training camps are the ones who do well at them and those do none, suck at it. I like to see a battle of the strongest teams, if GC guys are punished for it, then ride aggressively in the mountains to make up time.

Which is what the 2 biggest losers of this years ttt did. They ended up cracking themselves.

Go 2 years back and you have, as Ferminal points out, 2 contenders who would have made the race interesting due to their tt skills, out because their gc game isnt based on taking back 3 minutes in the mountains.

If you lose time in a ttt, and then attack, well the guys who didnt lose in the ttt follow you, or worse, get their doms to do it, and by the end of the stage they not only have their headstart on you, they are also fresher/

 

[Ferminal]

The teams who spend time on their TT bikes and do TTT practice at training camps are the ones who do well at them and those do none, suck at it. I like to see a battle of the strongest teams, if GC guys are punished for it, then ride aggressively in the mountains to make up time.

This is another point, most of the time there is a bit of a rule that there is some trade off between climbing and TTing, the stronger TTer might be a bit weaker on the climb.

Yet for teams this doesn't hold, quite often the strong ones in the TTT are also the strong ones in the mountains. Again making it even harder for the guys who failed in the TTT to take back time.

 

[cineteq]

The teams who spend time on their TT bikes and do TTT practice at training camps are the ones who do well at them and those do none, suck at it. I like to see a battle of the strongest teams, if GC guys are punished for it, then ride aggressively in the mountains to make up time.

Another one who gets it.

 

[cineteq]

Yet for teams this doesn't hold, quite often the strong ones in the TTT are also the strong ones in the mountains. Again making it even harder for the guys who failed in the TTT to take back time.

If the TTT was too decisive for the overall result, blame it on the staged-race design. Make sense?

 

[Ferminal]

If the TTT was too decisive for the overall result, blame it on the staged-race design. Make sense?

No, I have no idea what you're saying, maybe I could if you actually communicated your point rather than having this gamesmanship approach to everything, as though we are winners and losers.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Here are the top 4 teams of the TTT in the 2009 Tour:

Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Liquigas

Here are the teams of the top 10 riders on the GC at that race:

Astana
Saxo Bank
Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Astana
Liquigas
Garmin
Liquigas
Française des Jeux

Apart from Le Mevel, who got that position thanks to a break away, the entire top 10, all came from the same four teams that had finished in positions 1-4 on the TTT. That's just as bad an imbalance as the 2011 Giro.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

If the TTT was too decisive for the overall result, blame it on the staged-race design. Make sense?

I do, it was a terrible race design, and taking out the TTT that decided the overall GC would be the first thing I did.

It's not about "getting it" or "not getting it". I get your arguments. I understand why you make them. I just think they're wrong, and that the TTT biases things too easily towards the moneyed teams and creates an imbalance where the strongest teams that are already advantaged enough simply by being the strongest get an extra headstart, which actually ruins the racing by eliminating people who would normally be in contention from contention. Like was said about Evans and Menchov; the TT is usually where their gains are made; their style is not about making maximum time in the mountains. You make out like attacking in the mountains is the logical result of this, but both Evans AND Menchov attempted to attack in the mountains of the 2009 Tour. Evans was sent back to the péloton by the break because he was too threatening, and Menchov crashed and bonked.

If it was an ITT, the race would have been far more interesting, as yes Contador, Armstrong and Wiggins would still have been up there in contention, but you could have added Evans and Menchov to the mix, and taken the Schleck brothers out, since they were pretty much dragged to the line by Cancellara. As a result, Andy wouldn't have been able to just sit by on Arcalis when the whole bunch rode in together until the last 2km, he wouldn't be able to wait until after Contador went on Verbier, he wouldn't have had the ability to sit back and wait for his brother on Ventoux.

I don't see why it's a great thing that we get a TTT in every goddamn GT these days. We didn't have a TTT in the 2006 or 2007 Tours, and those were among the most exciting in the last few years. And we didn't have one in 2008 either, when there were several riders of all different characteristics in contention and we legitimately didn't know who'd win. And we didn't have one in 2010, with one of the narrowest victory margins in the race's history. The Tour seemed to do fine without a TTT.

 

[craig1985]

Let's not have cobbles in the race because some guys are not good at them and will crash and lose a lot of time and favour GC riders like Evans who is a better bike handlers than a lot of GC contenders. I don't like the really long TTT's of the past or every year but it isn't Prudhomme's fault that Silence Lotto and Rabobank had a bad day in 2009 and everything that did go wrong, did, because on a normal day they do a lot better.

I would like the Tour to start off with a TTT one year because it would be something that hasn't happened before (or not in a very long time) unlike what the Giro and Vuelta do every year.

 

[craig1985]

I do, it was a terrible race design, and taking out the TTT that decided the overall GC would be the first thing I did.

It's not about "getting it" or "not getting it". I get your arguments. I understand why you make them. I just think they're wrong, and that the TTT biases things too easily towards the moneyed teams and creates an imbalance where the strongest teams that are already advantaged enough simply by being the strongest get an extra headstart, which actually ruins the racing by eliminating people who would normally be in contention from contention. Like was said about Evans and Menchov; the TT is usually where their gains are made; their style is not about making maximum time in the mountains. You make out like attacking in the mountains is the logical result of this, but both Evans AND Menchov attempted to attack in the mountains of the 2009 Tour. Evans was sent back to the péloton by the break because he was too threatening, and Menchov crashed and bonked.

If it was an ITT, the race would have been far more interesting, as yes Contador, Armstrong and Wiggins would still have been up there in contention, but you could have added Evans and Menchov to the mix, and taken the Schleck brothers out, since they were pretty much dragged to the line by Cancellara. As a result, Andy wouldn't have been able to just sit by on Arcalis when the whole bunch rode in together until the last 2km, he wouldn't be able to wait until after Contador went on Verbier, he wouldn't have had the ability to sit back and wait for his brother on Ventoux.

I don't see why it's a great thing that we get a TTT in every goddamn GT these days. We didn't have a TTT in the 2006 or 2007 Tours, and those were among the most exciting in the last few years. And we didn't have one in 2008 either, when there were several riders of all different characteristics in contention and we legitimately didn't know who'd win. And we didn't have one in 2010, with one of the narrowest victory margins in the race's history. The Tour seemed to do fine without a TTT.

I do agree with this, the Giro doesn't need to have one every year.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Let's not have cobbles in the race because some guys are not good at them and will crash and lose a lot of time and favour GC riders like Evans who is a better bike handlers than a lot of GC contenders. I don't like the really long TTT's of the past or every year but it isn't Prudhomme's fault that Silence Lotto and Rabobank had a bad day in 2009 and everything that did go wrong, did, because on a normal day they do a lot better.

I would like the Tour to start off with a TTT one year because it would be something that hasn't happened before (or not in a very long time) unlike what the Giro and Vuelta do every year.

That's how a TTT should be. Prologue or nothing. The short early stage TTTs don't seem to hurt the Vuelta GC too much, while the Giro seems to have it as a tradition for the first stage on Italian soil. In 2010 it was probably too long given that as previously stated Michele Scarponi lost more time in 30km than over 3000km simply because Jackson Rodríguez and José Serpa aren't too hot against the clock.

Strong teams already have enough advantages without giving them a free headstart anyway. The only justification I can possibly think of for including a TTT is that some people think they look kind of cool.

 

[The Hitch]

Let's not have cobbles in the race because some guys are not good at them and will crash and lose a lot of time and favour GC .

Where is the ttt stat in PCM? I don't see it.

The argument against ttts is not that its not suited to some guys, thats a distortion.

Its that they are not in control of their own time. On cobbles they are. On mountains they are. On hills, descents, flats, they are. So using these as examples to prove that the ttt is fair doesn't work.

Why not lets have a 90k relay at the Tour. Every rider does 10k and at the end their times are added up.

And if someone like Dennis Menchov ends up losing 5 minutes on such a course, well, I guess he just isn't good enough, whereas the Schleck putting on the MJ at the end of the stage, is showing his true all rounder capabilities.

 

[cineteq]

The argument against ttts is not that its not suited to some guys, thats a distortion.

Its that they are not in control of their own time. On cobbles they are. On mountains they are. On hills, descents, flats, they are. So using these as examples to prove that the ttt is fair doesn't work.

Why not lets have a 90k relay at the Tour. Every rider does 10k and at the end their times are added up.

It would be distortion if TTTs were too long and not at the beginning of the race, plus it the race has 12 flat stages that does not help balancing it, then it makes sense what you say, otherwise it's just another interesting variable and I'm all for it.

 

[Mambo95]

Here are the top 4 teams of the TTT in the 2009 Tour:

Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Liquigas

Here are the teams of the top 10 riders on the GC at that race:

Astana
Saxo Bank
Astana
Garmin
Saxo Bank
Astana
Liquigas
Garmin
Liquigas
Française des Jeux

Similarly, the top seven on stage 17 in 2009 were also the top seven in the final GC, with the top 10 on GC all in the top 13. That was just as distorting.
If the other GC candidates where only out of contention because of the TTT you would have thought that at least a couple of them would have been up for the stage win.

I would agree that that TTT was twice as long as is preferable, but it would be false to suggest that some riders got into the top 10 only because of the TTT.

TTT's a good test of a leader's leadership skills and also gets teams to pick balanced teams. And sponsors like them. They shouldn't be more than 20km though.

 

[Ruudz0r]

I like seeing TTT, but not in GTs or other multiple stage races. They should have a 1 day TTT event (well there is going to be one next year) and skip them everywhere else, then Im happy.

If they still want to do them in GTs or other races the max time that can be lost by teams should be minimized to 5 sec apart per team and a max of 1 minute for example, so team 2 loses a max of 5 sec to numer 1, team 3 a max of 10 sec and so on + team 12 till 20-22 would lose a max of 1 minute.

Then a team can also chose to just take it easy in a TTT so the race will be super tactical

 

[swuzzlebubble]

How would a MTTT go?

 

[craig1985]

I like seeing TTT, but not in GTs or other multiple stage races. They should have a 1 day TTT event (well there is going to be one next year) and skip them everywhere else, then Im happy.

If they still want to do them in GTs or other races the max time that can be lost by teams should be minimized to 5 sec apart per team and a max of 1 minute for example, so team 2 loses a max of 5 sec to numer 1, team 3 a max of 10 sec and so on + team 12 till 20-22 would lose a max of 1 minute.

Then a team can also chose to just take it easy in a TTT so the race will be super tactical

They did that with the Eindhoven TTT.

 

[auscyclefan94]

The role of TTT's in Stage Races?

Non existent please.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Of course.

Im glad that you associate me with the crusade for fairness.

Haha. That's only cos Euskaltel suck at the TTT.
But I get the point. The TTT is one of those spectacles I would not mind skipping every other year, or something along those lines.

 

[The Hitch]

Haha. That's only cos Euskaltel suck at the TTT.

Its because I like underdogs and they are the type of dogs that get kicked when it comes to ttt's

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Its because I like underdogs and they are the type of dogs that get kicked when it comes to ttt's

. Me too actually.

 

[movingtarget]

Mod Edit: These posts have been split away from the 2013 TdF thread




TTT @ 20 is too short 35 about right IMO.

Hitch will be a long soon to complain about the TTT

Normally I don't like TTT's but if they hold one one I prefer it to be short. That way the GC riders on the weaker teams are not too badly effected.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Haha. That's only cos Euskaltel suck at the TTT.
But I get the point. The TTT is one of those spectacles I would not mind skipping every other year, or something along those lines.

It should be skipped MOST years. Maybe if they had it as an occasional thing then it might be an interesting variable - like in the period of no TTTs from Lance's retirement to Lance's comeback (convenient timeframe for bringing it back, huh?). But as long as we're seeing at least 2 in the GTs a year, it's just overkill and needs to go away. Like Lagos de Covadonga, Alpe d'Huez and the Tourmalet, it's due a lengthy layoff to build up some kind of sense of occasion when we see one again.

 

[Ferminal]

It should be skipped MOST years. Maybe if they had it as an occasional thing then it might be an interesting variable - like in the period of no TTTs from Lance's retirement to Lance's comeback (convenient timeframe for bringing it back, huh?). But as long as we're seeing at least 2 in the GTs a year, it's just overkill and needs to go away. Like Lagos de Covadonga, Alpe d'Huez and the Tourmalet, it's due a lengthy layoff to build up some kind of sense of occasion when we see one again.

I think the Albi and Cholet ITTs had a better impact than the Montpellier and Les Essarts TTTs. Purely subjective mind you.

I actually enjoy TTTs as a discipline, and enjoy all forms of racing against the clock... call me strange. I'm eagerly anticipating the Worlds TTT as a true showing of the discipline. But I believe that in stage races, TTTs should be used sparingly, at the start of the race, one every three or four editions. By 2013 the Tour will have had one 3/5 years, the Giro will be approaching double figures of consecutive TTTs and the Vuelta looks to be continuing with its TTT policy too. Recently we have had as many GT TTTs as prologues, and far more than MTTs. The Giro even has more TTTs than serious ITTs.