The Sidebar Thread

[ebandit]

zam bam

So foxxy when you see a Fraulein of good german stock do you say " that is a beautiful white woman"?

does it really matter zam? let's encourage creative speech

recently i was asked 'what size shoe do you wear?'......................
i replied 'darkies size 11'......................straight the way i thought
'omg did i just say that?'

but it's a phrase i was brought up with and in no way intended to be racist
............it's just colourful language ( is that phrase allowed zam? )

Mark L

 

[ChewbaccaD]

And he continues to lie. Maybe if you repeat it enough, people will believe it. That strategy worked for Armstrong...for a while.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hincapie-claims-theres-more-to-andreus-doping-past

Hincapie alleges that Andreu taught him how to use EPO, and to the Detroit Free Press, he said Andreu directed him the exact pharmacy where he could obtain it.

"Frankie was my mentor in the peloton," Hincapie said, and talked about the first time he chose to use illegal performance-enhancing drugs. "For me, it was a powerful moment that I won't forget. It was like, 'Oh, now I'm going to have to do that, too.' It's not like one of those rumors or the whispers you hear. When you actually see it and your good friend is doing it and it's someone you look up to, it really hits you. Not that I'm blaming Frankie."

RR isn't "Cyclingnews," so you're the one twisting sh!t to suit Project Mayhem. Maybe if you repeat your lie long enough, Lance won't make you go get another bottle.

 

[Netserk]

So was it a first for doping, or a first for epo?

 

[Granville57]

So was it a first for doping, or a first for epo?

Well, the laziness of the media is much of the problem in this whole mess.

CN, like the Detroit Free Press (I hope to god it is free), both cite what Hincapie says in The Armstrong Lie.

Hincapie talks about how Andreu taught him how to use EPO

The DFP quotes Big George as saying,

“Frankie was my mentor in the peloton,” Hincapie says, referring to the the group of cyclists he rode with. “For me, it was a powerful moment that I won’t forget. It was like, ‘Oh, now I’m going to have to do that, too.’
http://www.freep.com/article/20140202/COL26/302020040/Betsy-Andreu-Lance-Armstrong

(I've bolded the part that indicates the target audience expected by that article.)


But somehow, from that, Laura Weislo at CN extrapolates,

"Frankie was my mentor in the peloton," Hincapie said, and talked about the first time he chose to use illegal performance-enhancing drugs.

There are more than a few problems with that.
First off, where and when did Hincapie ever suggest to anyone that he hadn't been using PEDs prior to seeing EPO in Frankie's fridge? On one hand, that inadvertently plays to Hincapie's favor by suggesting, or at least implying, that he was a good, clean American athlete up until that fateful moment of no return as he gazed past the leftover lasagna towards his future. (I wonder if, in that same moment, he pictured an overpriced getaway in the hills of South Carolina?).

On the other hand, it's both careless and sloppy reporting. It paints Frankie in a more significant light as the bad influence in poor George's life and illustrious career than is warranted. Maybe because there was a deadline to meet, that line about "the first time he chose to use illegal performance-enhancing drugs" was thrown in without too much consideration. Or maybe it was deliberately put there to obfuscate the truth. Or maybe this is just a good example of how history gets poisoned.

Quotes are taking from quotes, a word or turn of a phrase is slightly altered, and then things become blurry...and eventually toxic. It could easily be argued that that is exactly what Lance & Co are hoping for when they set things in motion to begin with. Plant a seed and it just may grow in one's favor. Or maybe not.

The press is lazy and people are stupid. So it doesn't take much for any story to get distorted. We can argue endlessly as to who the puppet master is, and as to what agendas may or may not be playing out behind-the-scenes. But in the end, we'd be foolish not to look at who has a history of doing what, and to examine, closely, the means by which any of the information is made available to us.

I believe the point that Chewie is making above is that regardless of the intentions, those words "the first time he chose to use illegal performance-enhancing drugs" are out there, for anyone to see, and they clearly read as: The first time George Hincapie chose to use illegal performance-enhancing drugs was when he saw EPO in Frankie Andreu's refrigerator.

Once that is is print, it hardly matters what George actually said. The quote gets repeated and some people will assume it to be accurate. It's been my interpretation through this current tug-of-war between Race Radio and BroDeal that the only real issue is: What are the intentions behind what is being said.

Race Radio seems to want to argue that the distortions are all very intentional.
BroDeal seems to want to argue that a literal interpretation of affidavits will prove things otherwise.

The problem in all of that is that the two issues would seem to be separate, and in a way that no amount of "debate" is going to solve. Race Radio's fears are confirmed by things like that CN article. BroDeal will point out the discrepancies between what CN prints and what George actually states. Nevertheless, CN did print that. But it does differ from George's affidavit.

And so here we are. But I've no idea where that is anymore.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

So was it a first for doping, or a first for epo?

Read the quoted portion and ask the author if it's still unclear. I didn't write it, but when it says "first time using performance enhancing drugs," I'm going with historical precedent.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Well, the laziness of the media is much of the problem in this whole mess.

CN, like the Detroit Free Press (I hope to god it is free), both cite what Hincapie says in The Armstrong Lie.



The DFP quotes Big George as saying,
(I've bolded the part that indicates the target audience expected by that article.)


But somehow, from that, Laura Weislo at CN extrapolates,



There are more than a few problems with that.
First off, where and when did Hincapie ever suggest to anyone that he hadn't been using PEDs prior to seeing EPO in Frankie's fridge? On one hand, that inadvertently plays to Hincapie's favor by suggesting, or at least implying, that he was a good, clean American athlete up until that fateful moment of no return as he gazed past the leftover lasagna towards his future. (I wonder if, in that same moment, he pictured an overpriced getaway in the hills of South Carolina?).

On the other hand, it's both careless and sloppy reporting. It paints Frankie in a more significant light as the bad influence in poor George's life and illustrious career than is warranted. Maybe because there was a deadline to meet, that line about "the first time he chose to use illegal performance-enhancing drugs" was thrown in without too much consideration. Or maybe it was deliberately put there to obfuscate the truth. Or maybe this is just a good example of how history gets poisoned.

Quotes are taking from quotes, a word or turn of a phrase is slightly altered, and then things become blurry...and eventually toxic. It could easily be argued that that is exactly what Lance & Co are hoping for when they set things in motion to begin with. Plant a seed and it just may grow in one's favor. Or maybe not.

The press is lazy and people are stupid. So it doesn't take much for any story to get distorted. We can argue endlessly as to who the puppet master is, and as to what agendas may or may not be playing out behind-the-scenes. But in the end, we'd be foolish not to look at who has a history of doing what, and to examine, closely, the means by which any of the information is made available to us.

I believe the point that Chewie is making above is that regardless of the intentions, those words "the first time he chose to use illegal performance-enhancing drugs" are out there, for anyone to see, and they clearly read as: The first time George Hincapie chose to use illegal performance-enhancing drugs was when he saw EPO in Frankie Andreu's refrigerator.

Once that is is print, it hardly matters what George actually said. The quote gets repeated and some people will assume it to be accurate. It's been my interpretation through this current tug-of-war between Race Radio and BroDeal that the only real issue is: What are the intentions behind what is being said.

Race Radio seems to want to argue that the distortions are all very intentional.
BroDeal seems to want to argue that a literal interpretation of affidavits will prove things otherwise.

The problem in all of that is that the two issues would seem to be separate, and in a way that no amount of "debate" is going to solve. Race Radio's fears are confirmed by things like that CN article. BroDeal will point out the discrepancies between what CN prints and what George actually states. Nevertheless, CN did print that. But it does differ from George's affidavit.

And so here we are. But I've no idea where that is anymore.

I agree with this. It was sloppy reporting on the part of DFP and CN because the references are ambiguous...purposefully? I'm siding with historical precedent here. Bottle carriers like Bro and Hog and others can give him the benefit of the doubt. I have yet to see a reason to.

Note that RR didn't write either article, but somehow he's the source of confusion...

 

[Granville57]

I agree with this.

I've amended my post since you quoted it. If you could requote the new version that might help the conversation.

Thanks.

Note that RR didn't write either article, but somehow he's the source of confusion...

That was one key point that I did not add in.

 

[Race Radio]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hincapie-claims-theres-more-to-andreus-doping-past


RR isn't "Cyclingnews," so you're the one twisting sh!t to suit Project Mayhem. Maybe if you repeat your lie long enough, Lance won't make you go get another bottle.

yup, Bro figures if he keeps saying I lied people will eventually believe it.....hmmm have seen that somewhere before.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I have copied this exchange from the mod thread.

So your new thread was just a stunt? You will continue to do what you previously did, instead of putting your OT response in your new thread?

If you noticed, I said yes or no.
It was an attempt at finality or addressing the key point, the response was OT, as the initial post was OT.
If the discussion continued to be rehashed, then the new thread would be the next place to go.

Just like this side discussion - you asked, I answered.
My answer should address what you wrote (which is OT). Its giving the benefit that you just made an error. Its also using a little common sense.
So, if you have any further (OT) points, we can take it to the new thread.

So it's a thread where anyone else responding to your OT posts should post their response, whereas you'll just continue with what you've always done?

Sounds like double standards.

No. It was a genuine attempt to take minor OT stuff away from good threads - this stops it being mucked up.

Its not that difficult to understand.

 

[BroDeal]

There are more than a few problems with that.
First off, where and when did Hincapie ever suggest to anyone that he hadn't been using PEDs prior to seeing EPO in Frankie's fridge?

He didn't but RR continues to lie about it. He was lying about it before the shoddy CN article appeared.

He followed Mark Fabiani so much that he decided to use the same tactics. His toadies don't care about the truth or what was actually said. They only care about promoting the spin.

 

[Race Radio]

He didn't but RR continues to lie about it. He was lying about it before the shoddy CN article appeared.

He followed Mark Fabiani so much that he decided to use the same tactics. His toadies don't care about the truth or what was actually said. They only care about promoting the spin.

Thanks for proving my point

Now run off to Tim Herman and get your new talking points

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He didn't but RR continues to lie about it. He was lying about it before the shoddy CN article appeared.

He followed Mark Fabiani so much that he decided to use the same tactics. His toadies don't care about the truth or what was actually said. They only care about promoting the spin.

Well before the shoddy CN piece was the movie, the Armsrtong Lie, where the claim was made by GH.

I asked you had you seen it, you didn't answer.

 

[Race Radio]

Well before the shoddy CN piece was the movie, the Armsrtong Lie, where the claim was made by GH.

I asked you had you seen it, you didn't answer.

We shouldn't be so hard on Bro, he is just following instructions, just like George.

It is interesting to see how the narrative has changed. 2 years ago it was

The speed jumped in races
Riders were talking openly of using EPO
Swart said everyone was doing it
Ferrari said it was safe
Armstrong, their highest paid rider and team leader, had a forceful discussion with the riders. One that George was willing to swear under oath meant the team needed to get on EPO
Team Doctor instructs the riders how safely to use EPO
Armstrong told Swart anyone on the Tour team needed to use EPO

A few months ago the narrative changes. Gone were all these facts, now Frankie is the target, Frankie was the reason George doped.

In a scene added right before the premiere he tells the Armstrong Lie Frankie taught him how to dope
He tells Reed Frankie bought him EPO and showed him how to get it
Lance introduces George to Frankie's home town newspaper and says seeing EPO in Frankie's fridge is why he started using.....intentionally ignoring all of the other influences he swore under oath about.To Frankie's hometown news paper it is all about Frankie.

Under oath Frankie was George's roommate, but with Project Revenge a brand new narrative is launched. Frankie becomes the drug supplier, the guy that gets clean riders into doping.....the pusher. In the last few months the few times George has talked about doping his focused is Frankie.....Coincidence? Nahh

The best way for this to end is for George to apologize for the confusion. While BroDeal would like to pretend differently many people see it the same as we do and the end result is George is not looked on kindly.

 

[BroDeal]

We shouldn't be so hard on Bro, he is just following instructions, just like George.

It is interesting to see how the narrative has changed. 2 years ago it was

The speed jumped in races
Riders were talking openly of using EPO
Swart said everyone was doing it
Ferrari said it was safe
Armstrong, their highest paid rider and team leader, had a forceful discussion with the riders. One that George was willing to swear under oath meant the team needed to get on EPO
Team Doctor instructs the riders how safely to use EPO
Armstrong told Swart anyone on the Tour team needed to use EPO

A few months ago the narrative changes. Gone were all these facts, now Frankie is the target, Frankie was the reason George doped.

In a scene added right before the premiere he tells the Armstrong Lie Frankie taught him how to dope
He tells Reed Frankie bought him EPO and showed him how to get it
Lance introduces George to Frankie's home town newspaper and says seeing EPO in Frankie's fridge is why he started using.....intentionally ignoring all of the other influences he swore under oath about.To Frankie's hometown news paper it is all about Frankie.

Under oath Frankie was George's roommate, but with Project Revenge a brand new narrative is launched. Frankie becomes the drug supplier, the guy that gets clean riders into doping.....the pusher. In the last few months the few times George has talked about doping his focused is Frankie.....Coincidence? Nahh

The best way for this to end is for George to apologize for the confusion. While BroDeal would like to pretend differently many people see it the same as we do and the end result is George is not looked on kindly.

It looks like you are still sticking with your "pusher" lie.

The best way for this to end is for you to stop pretending that a few sentences in short newspapers article are now the whole of Hincapie's story, stop distorting what he said, and stop using Hincapie as a proxy to attack Armstrong.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I grew up racing with CRCA and GH's dad in NYC. I always followed his career for that reason, I've never been more ****ed off with him than in the last week or so. He is a lying sack. But this is just my opinion, I have no links to back it up.

 

[Race Radio]

It looks like you are still sticking with your "pusher" lie.

Hmmm, what is a pusher?
http://thesaurus.com/browse/drug+supplier

A pusher is a supplier of drugs. In his recent revisionist history George claimed Frankie was his supplier. You are welcome to pretend George did not say that but he did. Not just supplied him but taught him how to use them.

Funny how in his recent interviews he never mentions Ferrari but he goes straight to Frankie. Alex, Reed, Kristen......straight to Frankie.

His agenda is as transparent as yours

 

[Defcon 5]

Hmmm, what is a pusher?
http://thesaurus.com/browse/drug+supplier

A pusher is a supplier of drugs. In his recent revisionist history George claimed Frankie was his supplier. You are welcome to pretend George did not say that but he did. Not just supplied him but taught him how to use them.

Funny how in his recent interviews he never mentions Ferrari but he goes straight to Frankie. Alex, Reed, Kristen......straight to Frankie.

His agenda is as transparent as yours

You throw in the smear that a member of this forum is being paid. Is that in the rules? It shows that you've perhaps been too close to this issue for too long. Do you accuse colleagues of wearing a wire?

Anyhow, I have seen The Armstrong Lie and I have seen no such scene where George says that about Frankie, so perhaps there are two versions? It's an honest question? And why was no one complaining about it when the film came out? Seems odd.

You string things together and make them sound very conspiratorial, but what if this is just George's experience? Remember it's only been a year since these guys have been able to talk openly about their experience, and the guy can still see Betsy waging war even though Lance has lost all his titles and is facing huge bills. Why would he NOT want to talk about it if it's true to set the record straight? It doesn't have to be a conspiracy. There is no mileage in saying negative things about the Andreu's if you want a good press - look at vaughter's who is going around sucking up to them after what they did to him. Hincapie likely knows of the political cost to himself - that shows you there must be something in it. If it's true that Frankie was just one of the guys and kept a lot back from Betsy, like I think most people in this forum kinda suspect is true anyway, should George be allowed to mention it at all? Why not?

Let's be honest- this picture that Betsy likes to paint of Frankie, as this pu$$y who was forced to dope one time in 99. Does anyone really believe that? It doesn't make Frankie a bad person at all - that is really the point. It wasn't just bad guys like Lance. Everybody was doing it. Hincapie has no history of going around smearing people and managed to himself out of all of Lance's battles during the glory years. He doesn't seem the type to make this all up, and why now, just at the time when everybody is making up with everybody? Makes no sense. It's a conspiracy to far.

Remember Frankie never waged this campaign against Lance. It's always been Betsy and she is still after him. It's her that has the agenda, not Hincapie.

 

[Defcon 5]

His agenda is as transparent as yours

I think you look at bit stupid trying to make out someone who has been hating on Lance for years, when it really mattered too, is somehow taking orders or being paid. Do you know how that looks when you casually treat someone with 10,000 posts of anti Lance rhetoric as if they just popped out of Livestrong HQ in 2005 ? He's not saying Lance is a great guy, but lets be honest, they were all on it back then, and on most of these teams. They all had to dope if they wanted to stay in Europe.

Take yourself out of the deeply personal battles and look at the broader picture. You don't have to be paid to make this point. What has happened to you?

 

[Granville57]

I'm back!!!

Awesome screen name, dude. I'll take that reference as a compliment!


Now the fun begins!


#TheClinicAfterDark

 

[Defcon 5]

Btw, in the USADA affidavits, George "pushed" to other riders. So did Landis. All more experienced riders helped out. There is nothing peculiar about it.

 

[Defcon 5]

Awesome screen name, dude. I'll take that reference as a compliment!


Now the fun begins!


#TheClinicAfterDark

Not really. TheRaceRadio has never been that good at debating. He likes the one liner quips. He'll wait till the post is deleted, then if he makes any mention of it at all, will say something like "the paid troll was babbling some gibberish....no one understood his nonsense. Anyone got one of those drunken PMs?"

That type of simple way of avoiding debate and smearing people used to work. Not anymore.

 

[BroDeal]

You throw in the smear that a member of this forum is being paid. Is that in the rules? It shows that you've perhaps been too close to this issue for too long. Do you accuse colleagues of wearing a wire?

You have to excuse RR. If you hung out with the people he does then you too would be paranoid about wires, bugs, taps, cameras, and Jeebus only knows whatever other low rent NSA stuff they have used on friends and acquaintances. There was a lot of recoding going on.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Not really. TheRaceRadio has never been that good at debating. He likes the one liner quips. He'll wait till the post is deleted, then if he makes any mention of it at all, will say something like "the paid troll was babbling some gibberish....no one understood his nonsense. Anyone got one of those drunken PMs?"

That type of simple way of avoiding debate and smearing people used to work. Not anymore.

What's going to happen now?

Wait…you can't use that term 'smearing people' because it's already in use …George is using it!

 

[Granville57]

Not really.

Oh I beg to differ. I'm counting on you to get in more posts than last time. If there's anything I can do to run interference on the mods, you let me know.

In just a short time, Dr Mas and BroDeal will be here. When that happens, well, in a tribute to a now-defrocked mod, it might look something like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcUrzHUYrYA

This should be both fun and entertaining.

 

[BroDeal]

Take yourself out of the deeply personal battles and look at the broader picture. You don't have to be paid to make this point. What has happened to you?

Race Radio turned into Mullah Radio. Anyone who does not bow down to his twitter feed five times a day is a heretic and subject to stoning by his followers.