The Sky-Con-O-Meter. Predictions on how much more ridiculous they can get

[Cycle Chic]

Self Awareness

The funniest thing is that Sky don't seem to be self-aware at all. They continue to extol their virtues of cleanliness and marginal gains, whilst seemingly being completely unaware of how these performances look on the outside.

Agree. However, a possible explanation - look at it from Sky point of view. Why should they disguise their performances when the other teams havent for so many years ??? Belgium, Spain and Italy have dominated so why not the UK Team !!

You dont see Contador, Valverde, Scarponi, Basso, Di Luca, Gilbert, Boonen, Cancellara 'holding back' . They dont give a monkeys when they ping off the front, run up the climbs or bullet escape in the classics.

Also..Sky have a window at this moment and time - so reap while they can.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The funniest thing is that Sky don't seem to be self-aware at all. They continue to extol their virtues of cleanliness and marginal gains, whilst seemingly being completely unaware of how these performances look on the outside. It's like they've all become so completely entangled in a web of corporate doublespeak that they've lost the ability to think beyond the Sky bubble and they can't actually comprehend that anybody might not believe the jargon they were so caught up in.

Arrogance. Plain and simple.

 

[hrotha]

Or maybe, just matbe, they aren't measuring themselves by what Clinicians say about them?

Hey, who knows, maybe they do dope. But there's a hell of a lot of circular thinking going on where "I think they dope" = "they dope" - in which case, everything becomes evidence of doping.

You think this is just the Clinic 12?

Take a look at Twitter.

 

[martinvickers]

You think this is just the Clinic 12?

Take a look at Twitter.

It's far more than 12 now. Bandwagons are like that. In both directions i might add.

As for Twitterwatching, I do - Twitter has its "usual suspects" too - hey, let them at it; I think we've a pretty good idea how the Skybus feels about them. Let's put it this way, they'd not have half the endorsement deals they have if the mud was sticking with the general public.

If you're looking to catch them, and if they're doping believe me I want them caught, the your best bets, frankly are -

1) Walsh
2) wait till Rogers retires and try and quiz him
3) Get Michael Barry under oath.

But the circular backslapfest in here ain't gonna get it done, is it.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Let's put it this way, they'd not have half the endorsement deals they have if the mud was sticking with the general public.

Short memory - Midnight Oil.

You and your theory in a nutshell.

 

[martinvickers]

Short memory - Midnight Oil.

You and your theory in a nutshell.

Dear god. Aussie alternative rock. Frick me, it's gone pear shaped round here.

Wiggo, go read what I actually wrote, not what you think i wrote.

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>

But the circular backslapfest in here ain't gonna get it done, is it.

Dismissing this place while yet posting regurlarly is similar to what Armstrong, JV and no doubt Sky do on a regular basis. It is either irrelevant so no need to be posting here or it does have some relevance hence the need to post.

JV commented that if teams paid a miilion for anti-doping he wouldn't need "to come in here and deal with this crap". That JV needs to deal with the clinic says something about its inflluence.

Why do you feel the need to come here and put down those who follow cycling and are sick of watching doped performances?

Some are exasperated with it all and vent that on here. Why is that a problem for people? Why not go and watch it and leave it at that or join the true circle of backslapping that goes on by fans who ignore the doping?

No one in here, except those pretending the doping doesn't happen, is thinking the clinic will change anything. That you think posters are trying to do that appear to speak to your agenda of posting by trying to belittle posters.

Or maybe, just matbe, they aren't measuring themselves by what Clinicians say about them?

Hey, who knows, maybe they do dope. But there's a hell of a lot of circular thinking going on where "I think they dope" = "they dope" - in which case, everything becomes evidence of doping.

That so many sky fans (or bots) come in here to defend Sky says that they are 'measuring' themselves by the clinic. JV does. I imagine that most of the anglo speaking peloton read here on a regular basis and nervously laugh about it while cruising to the start of a race.

Wiggins diatribe at last years TdF confirms it.

 

[martinvickers]

<snip>Big sad whine</snip>

So now i'm armstrong. Wow. you gotta love the logic.

I come here, because I want to. I come here because i love cycling, all sport really (except Golf and F1), because hate doping, and, in the end, because it makes me smile. Actually, it makes me laugh.

It didn't used to smile or laugh; I used to get 'het up' trying to actually have serious useful conversations about the value of evidence (you probably remember the 'earnest' phase), and actually getting something fixed in the sport.

And then I slowly but surely realised how little interest there actually seems to be in fixing the sport in here. And for a while that really annoyed me, but after a while, you see the humour in it.

And I remember one thread where I employed a bit of fairly gentle sarcasm (actually it was more 'reductio ad absurdum') to make a point about the silliness of one conspiracy theory (IOC related as i recall), and people all started bunching their panties and crying 'foul' - people who had been pretty robust and abusive themselves.

But I still believe in sport. Still believe in actually trying to stop doping and dopers, rather than just whining about them. And I still believe that facts and evidence matter rather more than hunches and personal dislikes. And I'll continue to post as and when i see fit on those things. Not because I NEED to. Because I want to. and when I stop wanting to, I'll stop.

If you have a problem with that, take it up with a moderator. In all honesty, I don't care.

 

[sniper]

Dismissing this place while yet posting regurlarly is similar to what Armstrong, JV and no doubt Sky do on a regular basis. It is either irrelevant so no need to be posting here or it does have some relevance hence the need to post.

JV commented that if teams paid a miilion for anti-doping he wouldn't need "to come in here and deal with this crap". That JV needs to deal with the clinic says something about its inflluence.

Why do you feel the need to come here and put down those who follow cycling and are sick of watching doped performances?

Some are exasperated with it all and vent that on here. Why is that a problem for people? Why not go and watch it and leave it at that or join the true circle of backslapping that goes on by fans who ignore the doping?

No one in here, except those pretending the doping doesn't happen, is thinking the clinic will change anything. That you think posters are trying to do that appear to speak to your agenda of posting by trying to belittle posters.



That so many sky fans (or bots) come in here to defend Sky says that they are 'measuring' themselves by the clinic. JV does. I imagine that most of the anglo speaking peloton read here on a regular basis and nervously laugh about it while cruising to the start of a race.

Wiggins diatribe at last years TdF confirms it.

great post benotti.

 

[martinvickers]

great post benotti.

<circular backslap></circular backslap>

 

[Tinman]

Dear god. Aussie alternative rock.

Alternative? Time to get out from under the rock you've been for how long?

Good god man, get with the times. As alternative as U2.

 

[martinvickers]

Alternative? Time to get out from under the rock you've been for how long?

Good god man, get with the times. As alternative as U2.

Beds are burning > not = < joshua tree.

As per Wikipedia (yes, i know, wikipedia...)

"Midnight Oil (also known informally as "The Oils" to fans), were an Australian alternative rock band from Sydney"

Basically, anythng south of INXS was alternative to the rest of us (though i oddly remember half liking Farnham in my misguided youth). Unless you include Kylie's leather months, and seriously, who wants to do that...

 

[Tinman]

<circular backslap></circular backslap>

Great last few posts Martin. I for one think you contribute a lot of humor around here and would miss you when you go. I had a decent laugh. Thanks

 

[martinvickers]

Great last few posts Martin. I for one think you contribute a lot of humor around here and would miss you when you go. I had a decent laugh. Thanks

AS my granny used to say "sure, little amuses the innocent." Whatever keeps you happy and off the valium, Tinman, is good with me.

So that's Tinny, Snipes and Big Bad B have had a crack, anyone else want to jump on? Usually a few friendly mods are rounded up by Twelvers about now, aren't they?

Anyone want to question my passport? My species? Anyone?

Bueller? Bueller...?

Or you know, we could all go back on topic and discuss...facts?

Anybody? Bueller...?

 

[sittingbison]

Dear God it's come to this....Midnight Oil, Wikipedia, U2, Kylie Minogue


I accept Kylie because she sang about locomotion, obviously channeling her inner Sky Train

Back on track (scuz the pun lol) gentle(wo)men

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Or maybe, just matbe, they aren't measuring themselves by what Clinicians say about them?

Hey, who knows, maybe they do dope. But there's a hell of a lot of circular thinking going on where "I think they dope" = "they dope" - in which case, everything becomes evidence of doping.

It's not about whether they dope. It's about the way that, last July, they appeared completely unprepared for how to react to insinuations about their performances. You can't just show up, stick 4 guys on the front, trim the heads of state group to single digits with all 4 guys still there, and NOT expect some people to baulk at it. Yet they seemed woefully unprepared for this eventuality, as is evidenced by the scrambled responses following on from Wiggins' outburst.

You would expect a team as concerned with public image and caught up in corporate lingo, hanging a lot of their reputation on cleanliness and being seen to be clean, would have some understanding of what doped performances in the past were like, and - even if they themselves are clean - have some kind of plan in place to assuage people's doubts before they become full-on disbelief. To have an understanding of how to present oneself as clean, one must have an understanding of what is perceived by the audience as not being clean. It seems, instead, that not only do they exhibit some of the characteristics associated with performances that are not clean, but this is the very plan that their being perceived as clean is built upon. And then they seem surprised that people have doubts. The backpedaling and incidents like Brailsford running away from journalists asking about Leinders do not help their being perceived as clean, nor does having to jettison a bunch of staff for not meeting their ZTP who should never have passed it in the first place. The fact that they had to scramble like this suggests there was no planned method for how to deal with these enquiries.

After Planche des Belles Filles, Chris Froome tweeted something along the lines of "fans just have to wake up and realise this kind of performance is possible clean now". One of the editors at Podium Café responded directly to him with "clean cyclists have to wake up and realise 25 years of cheating colleagues have robbed them of blind faith fans". Yet Sky's PR continues to assume that blind faith of the fans, as if they were unaware that they would even raise an eyebrow by turning a number of riders of levels varying from "ageing doper" to "top quality engine" via "second-tier GC rider" into elite climbers savaging the group in the service of two guys who were complete road nobodies before magically becoming GT dominators.

Even if they're clean, it suggests they think the audience are complete fools to just perform like this consistently and expect people to buy it with no questions asked and nary even an eyebrow raised.

 

[Ferminal]

It's not about whether they dope. It's about the way that, last July, they appeared completely unprepared for how to react to insinuations about their performances. You can't just show up, stick 4 guys on the front, trim the heads of state group to single digits with all 4 guys still there, and NOT expect some people to baulk at it. Yet they seemed woefully unprepared for this eventuality, as is evidenced by the scrambled responses following on from Wiggins' outburst.

You would expect a team as concerned with public image and caught up in corporate lingo, hanging a lot of their reputation on cleanliness and being seen to be clean, would have some understanding of what doped performances in the past were like, and - even if they themselves are clean - have some kind of plan in place to assuage people's doubts before they become full-on disbelief. To have an understanding of how to present oneself as clean, one must have an understanding of what is perceived by the audience as not being clean. It seems, instead, that not only do they exhibit some of the characteristics associated with performances that are not clean, but this is the very plan that their being perceived as clean is built upon. And then they seem surprised that people have doubts. The backpedaling and incidents like Brailsford running away from journalists asking about Leinders do not help their being perceived as clean, nor does having to jettison a bunch of staff for not meeting their ZTP who should never have passed it in the first place.

Even if they're clean, it suggests they think the audience are complete fools to just perform like this consistently and expect people to buy it with no questions asked and nary even an eyebrow raised.

What do you think the meeting with Amaury was about?

They tied up the ends that matter, the public are harder to deal with but can be safely ignored.

 

[cineteq]

The funniest thing is that Sky don't seem to be self-aware at all. They continue to extol their virtues of cleanliness and marginal gains, whilst seemingly being completely unaware of how these performances look on the outside. It's like they've all become so completely entangled in a web of corporate doublespeak that they've lost the ability to think beyond the Sky bubble and they can't actually comprehend that anybody might not believe the jargon they were so caught up in.

@richie_porte
And congrats to @chrisfroome for his stage win. Sounds like the Sky lads did a clockwork job there too #skytrain

 

[SundayRider]

The mention of Rogers (or someone else) 'doing a Landis' is a bit premature. Need to remember that it was nearly six years after leaving Postal that Landis said his bit.

 

[Ferminal]

Landis was forced to retire in his early 30s...

Rogers is a lifelong doper who has done very well out of it and could easily keep riding until 38-40. No reason to talk, ever.

 

[Escarabajo]

Libertine Seguros, nice posts. +1.

 

[bianchigirl]

Libertine Seguros, absolutely agree - the knowledgeable fans don't count at all, just the newbie Sky=F1=football fans. As we don't have any kind of representation or pressure group, our diquiet means nothing. As for journos, they'll stop asking silly doping questions soon enough or lose their access - the replica of the USPS blueprint is that detailed.

As you point out, in a post-Festina/USPS world, it's quite extraordinary that they weren't prepared to be scrutinised and didn't have a proper PR strategy to deal with it. Clearly they simply felt we'd all swallow the KoolAid simply because they say they are 'clean'.

We're back to post-Festina and omerta is kicking in already - you only have to see the skybots and journos in action

 

[Benotti69]

If you have a problem with that, take it up with a moderator. In all honesty, I don't care.

If you didn't care you wouldn't have responded. If you are here to have a laugh then fine. Enjoy. But your posts are not full of humour.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Between mastersracer, martinvickers, ritcheypen, and a couple others, this place will soon have its own Sesame Street.

 

[hiero2]

It's not about whether they dope. It's about the way that, last July, they appeared completely unprepared for how to react to insinuations about their performances. You can't just show up, stick 4 guys on the front, trim the heads of state group to single digits with all 4 guys still there, and NOT expect some people to baulk at it. Yet they seemed woefully unprepared for this eventuality, as is evidenced by the scrambled responses following on from Wiggins' outburst.

You would expect a team as concerned with public image and caught up in corporate lingo, hanging a lot of their reputation on cleanliness and being seen to be clean, would have some understanding of what doped performances in the past were like, and - even if they themselves are clean - have some kind of plan in place to assuage people's doubts before they become full-on disbelief. To have an understanding of how to present oneself as clean, one must have an understanding of what is perceived by the audience as not being clean. It seems, instead, that not only do they exhibit some of the characteristics associated with performances that are not clean, but this is the very plan that their being perceived as clean is built upon. And then they seem surprised that people have doubts. The backpedaling and incidents like Brailsford running away from journalists asking about Leinders do not help their being perceived as clean, nor does having to jettison a bunch of staff for not meeting their ZTP who should never have passed it in the first place. The fact that they had to scramble like this suggests there was no planned method for how to deal with these enquiries.

After Planche des Belles Filles, Chris Froome tweeted something along the lines of "fans just have to wake up and realise this kind of performance is possible clean now". One of the editors at Podium Café responded directly to him with "clean cyclists have to wake up and realise 25 years of cheating colleagues have robbed them of blind faith fans". Yet Sky's PR continues to assume that blind faith of the fans, as if they were unaware that they would even raise an eyebrow by turning a number of riders of levels varying from "ageing doper" to "top quality engine" via "second-tier GC rider" into elite climbers savaging the group in the service of two guys who were complete road nobodies before magically becoming GT dominators.

Even if they're clean, it suggests they think the audience are complete fools to just perform like this consistently and expect people to buy it with no questions asked and nary even an eyebrow raised.

Actually, LS, a pretty good post. Sky did seem more than a little blind-sided by the lack of fan faith, and shouldn't have been.

However, to be honest, you miss the mark saying that Sky and Wiggo did not respond when they got caught out. Witness Wiggo's public acknowledgement of his outburst and acknowledgement of similarity, etc etc. I think, if I recall, that he even apologized. Also, while we are not part of all the conversations, it certainly seems to me that the Sky re-exam of the dopage palmares of their squad and staff is itself a public self-flagellation. We should be careful about chastising Brailsford et al for not being as publicly presentable and acceptable as Max Headroom. He is human, eh?