The Sky-Con-O-Meter. Predictions on how much more ridiculous they can get

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May 26, 2010
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hiero2 said:
Actually, LS, a pretty good post. Sky did seem more than a little blind-sided by the lack of fan faith, and shouldn't have been.

However, to be honest, you miss the mark saying that Sky and Wiggo did not respond when they got caught out. Witness Wiggo's public acknowledgement of his outburst and acknowledgement of similarity, etc etc. I think, if I recall, that he even apologized. Also, while we are not part of all the conversations, it certainly seems to me that the Sky re-exam of the dopage palmares of their squad and staff is itself a public self-flagellation. We should be careful about chastising Brailsford et al for not being as publicly presentable and acceptable as Max Headroom. He is human, eh?

Brailsford has floundered simply because his arrogance did not leave any room to realise fans dont swallow so easily what the teams tell them.

We still have not had answers to why Leinders was hired, why they hired ex dopers, why the ZTPwas not applied and basically why they lied as they knew who they were hiring.

The 2 big races of the early season, for the GT contenders, has been dominated by Sky. With some small exceptions they 'walked' them.

Remember nothing has changed in the sport. UCI still the same, Nat Feds still the same. Same DSs and nealry all the same Docs, heck, I doubt Ferarri or Leinders have stopped working.
 

thehog

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Benotti69 said:
Brailsford has floundered simply because his arrogance did not leave any room to realise fans dont swallow so easily what the teams tell them.

We still have not had answers to why Leinders was hired, why they hired ex dopers, why the ZTPwas not applied and basically why they lied as they knew who they were hiring.

The 2 big races of the early season, for the GT contenders, has been dominated by Sky. With some small exceptions they 'walked' them.

Remember nothing has changed in the sport. UCI still the same, Nat Feds still the same. Same DSs and nealry all the same Docs, heck, I doubt Ferarri or Leinders have stopped working.

The biggest mistake with Leinders was hiring him 'officially'.

They should have just used him 'off the books'.

Like they are today with Ferrari :rolleyes:
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
Brailsford has floundered simply because his arrogance did not leave any room to realise fans dont swallow so easily what the teams tell them.

We still have not had answers to why Leinders was hired, why they hired ex dopers, why the ZTPwas not applied and basically why they lied as they knew who they were hiring.

The 2 big races of the early season, for the GT contenders, has been dominated by Sky. With some small exceptions they 'walked' them.

Remember nothing has changed in the sport. UCI still the same, Nat Feds still the same. Same DSs and nealry all the same Docs, heck, I doubt Ferarri or Leinders have stopped working.


They will get away with it. Who is going to investigate them?

No one.
 
May 26, 2010
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bobbins said:
They will get away with it. Who is going to investigate them?

No one.

They will get caught. But it will be an ex rider, ex DS, ex Doc, ex soigneur etc that brings about the downfall. It has always happened and always will. Sky will make a mistake, they always do.
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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Benotti69 said:
...If you are here to have a laugh then fine. Enjoy. But your posts are not full of humour.

You misunderstand - I come to BE entertained, not to entertain.

It's your guys posts provide the humour, lads, not me. I just enjoy it. gotta get your chuckles somewhere, right?

If this place was a bit more cool headed, we could all have sensible conversations - and let's be clear - I watched both races today, and it WAS ridiculous, so I'm far from unconvertible - but instead, everybody ratchets up the sarcastic nonsense, and then acts hurt when it's laughed at.

Look, I'm putting a lot of hope in Walsh at the minute. I can't put it any other way than that.
 
Oct 17, 2011
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thehog said:
The biggest mistake with Leinders was hiring him 'officially'.

They should have just used him 'off the books'.

Like they are today with Ferrari :rolleyes:

You think they are working with Ferrari?
To me it would make total sense. The results all these sky riders are getting these days, the watts they put out with lower body weight, and just there absolute dominance in every stage race they enter...

It has Ferrari written all over it tbh, and he is one of the few guys capable of turning average joe's into machines..
 
Feb 20, 2010
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hiero2 said:
Actually, LS, a pretty good post. Sky did seem more than a little blind-sided by the lack of fan faith, and shouldn't have been.

However, to be honest, you miss the mark saying that Sky and Wiggo did not respond when they got caught out. Witness Wiggo's public acknowledgement of his outburst and acknowledgement of similarity, etc etc. I think, if I recall, that he even apologized. Also, while we are not part of all the conversations, it certainly seems to me that the Sky re-exam of the dopage palmares of their squad and staff is itself a public self-flagellation. We should be careful about chastising Brailsford et al for not being as publicly presentable and acceptable as Max Headroom. He is human, eh?

The re-examination of the dopage palmarès of the squad was damage limitation. If the Armstrong thing hadn't blown up big, Sean Yates would still be there in the team car today. Wiggins' apology for his outburst was similar: he acknowledged that he had made a PR faux-pas by insulting the audience and needed to limit the effect this had. The fact that the Armstrong case was big enough to make mainstream news, and guys like Michael Barry and Mick Rogers were named in the various documents meant some serious re-appraisal had to be made in order to preserve face. They quietly jettisoned Leinders into the night the day before the Reasoned Decision, and had it not been for Rasmussen and the Rabo thing blowing up you could bet they could have buried it pretty conveniently with everybody distracted by the LA fallout.

Brailsford is human, and he can make mistakes. But for a guy who pins his reputation on being seen as successful and clean, the following "mistakes" are pretty huge ones:
- hiring a doctor like Leinders. Brailsford wasn't there for the interview, but trusted the interviewer. Seemingly his trust was misplaced. Brailsford also advised that Leinders came highly recommended. He has not specified who highly recommended him, and if they are still at the team. Did Matty Hayman or Flecha raise any concerns? If not, then Hayman should go too. If so, then their concerns were ignored despite their experience of Leinders at Rabobank, and in which case Brailsford is either a fool or a liar. Leinders may never have done anything shady at Sky, but his presence, once a slight ringing of an alarm bell, is now a whopping great klaxon going off at all hours.
- hinging a plan to win the Tour on racing in dominant control fashion in the mountains, allowing riders to draw deliberate parallels to the template of Indurain's Banesto train and Armstrong's Postal train and then being unprepared for fans considering this looked like doping. Wiggins' outburst may have been unplanned and a case of good, honest anger at being challenged, but surely the team weren't so self-absorbed that they wouldn't recognise that their clean, controlled racing would look to the layman like the same tactics as the dominant dope squads of years gone by, and give Wiggins a few trite soundbites to parrot in the press conferences and interviews to assuage people's doubts?
- Not formulating plans to deal with these accusations quickly to prevent doubts becoming full-scale disbelief (and often disgust); when two months after the Tour Brailsford has announced an investigation into Leinders' past, then been silent on the matter until forced by an interviewer, who he then runs away from, this does not look good. All the while questions are going unanswered and the requests for more information on all sides are going ignored. Say what you will about Vaughters, but he engages with the fans, even those who he knows hate him and don't believe a thing he says. He may not convince us, but at least he goes out of his way to at least try to show he's running a clean team.

Team Sky's action plan for showing how clean they are appears to run as follows:
1) say we are clean
2) win lots of races in dominant fashion following template of 1990s doping teams
3) reiterate we are clean

You know who else said they were clean? Bernhard Kohl. Lance Armstrong. Leonardo Piepoli. Alejandro Valverde. Danilo di Luca. We didn't believe them - why should we believe Sky?
 

thehog

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Libertine Seguros said:
You know who else said they were clean? Bernhard Kohl. Lance Armstrong. Leonardo Piepoli. Alejandro Valverde. Danilo di Luca. We didn't believe them - why should we believe Sky?

But they're not British.

British don't dope. Other nations do.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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martinvickers said:
You misunderstand - I come to BE entertained, not to entertain.

It's your guys posts provide the humour, lads, not me. I just enjoy it. gotta get your chuckles somewhere, right?

If this place was a bit more cool headed, we could all have sensible conversations - and let's be clear - I watched both races today, and it WAS ridiculous, so I'm far from unconvertible - but instead, everybody ratchets up the sarcastic nonsense, and then acts hurt when it's laughed at.

Look, I'm putting a lot of hope in Walsh at the minute. I can't put it any other way than that.

Why do you expect a sensible conversation when the performance is laughable?
And to add to that the excuses are often so ridiculous that the only way to answer is sarcastically.

Sure it would be nice to be cool headed and say I find it suspicious - but then someone will post some graph from 5 years ago and show a 5 minute timeframe that it was predictable, as long as the rider was willing to miss their kids birthdays or something.
The humor is in that we are asked to believe in this - I doubt many of the Sky supporters find this amusing.

As for Walsh, again it's not like he is going to write 'I was signing a declaration that Sky were clean at the hotel, when a figure I vaguely recognized came in and said 'camper van outside, fresh blood bags. Get your blood bags'.
 
Jan 20, 2013
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hiero2 said:
Actually, LS, a pretty good post. Sky did seem more than a little blind-sided by the lack of fan faith, and shouldn't have been.

However, to be honest, you miss the mark saying that Sky and Wiggo did not respond when they got caught out. Witness Wiggo's public acknowledgement of his outburst and acknowledgement of similarity, etc etc. I think, if I recall, that he even apologized. Also, while we are not part of all the conversations, it certainly seems to me that the Sky re-exam of the dopage palmares of their squad and staff is itself a public self-flagellation. We should be careful about chastising Brailsford et al for not being as publicly presentable and acceptable as Max Headroom. He is human, eh?

Human...smug, arrogant and indifferent to public perception is how I would call it!
 
May 27, 2010
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thehog said:
But they're not British.

British don't dope. Other nations do.

I'd love to get that McQuaid comment on that (only the southern Euro countries dope...), but cannot find it due to the overwhelming amount of other garbage.

Dave.
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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Dr. Maserati said:
Why do you expect a sensible conversation when the performance is laughable?
And to add to that the excuses are often so ridiculous that the only way to answer is sarcastically.

Sure it would be nice to be cool headed and say I find it suspicious - but then someone will post some graph from 5 years ago and show a 5 minute timeframe that it was predictable, as long as the rider was willing to miss their kids birthdays or something.
The humor is in that we are asked to believe in this - I doubt many of the Sky supporters find this amusing.

As for Walsh, again it's not like he is going to write 'I was signing a declaration that Sky were clean at the hotel, when a figure I vaguely recognized came in and said 'camper van outside, fresh blood bags. Get your blood bags'.


Here's the secret. Anti-doping isn't really exciting to do. to watch maybe, but not to do. Sure, the fall of lance is the exception that proves the rule, but generally? It's done by long, monotonous work, chipping away, following leads, some of which prove false.

Life ain't Perry Mason or CSI. Investigations are usually boring, tedious, and involve huge amounts of patience. Law, when it comes into play, is tedious and boring. When a journo at a court case writes about hearing "an audible gasp", often he's the only one doing it. But it's how, in general, the work gets done.

Saracasm, as a rule, is often used in place of analysis, rather than alongside it. And it's usually a cardinal error. and I include myself in that...
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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martinvickers said:
Here's the secret. Anti-doping isn't really exciting to do. to watch maybe, but not to do. Sure, the fall of lance is the exception that proves the rule, but generally? It's done by long, monotonous work, chipping away, following leads, some of which prove false.

Life ain't Perry Mason or CSI. Investigations are usually boring, tedious, and involve huge amounts of patience. Law, when it comes into play, is tedious and boring. When a journo at a court case writes about hearing "an audible gasp", often he's the only one doing it. But it's how, in general, the work gets done.

Saracasm, as a rule, is often used in place of analysis, rather than alongside it. And it's usually a cardinal error. and I include myself in that...
Seriously, what are you on about?

This is a forum - a common tactic is to post something mildly correct and use it to suggest a different proposition -what happens when you ask to see the data? Or links? Or cite a source? They ignore the request.
They are perfectly entitled to do so, but it will suggest the arguement was false or exaggerated
I often use sarcasm, but usually after I have given a opportunity to whoever I address.
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Get a room boys.

Too much love around.
And, what are YOU on about? :p
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Get a room boys.

Too much love around.

Only self-love in here, Fearless Greg, sure you know that.

honestly, the Christian Brothers are turning in their graves... ;)
 
May 26, 2009
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D-Queued said:
Thank you. Thank you.

Have been looking for this ever since the thread on Pat McQuaid was started.

Dave.

Not a problem, more than glad to help. It's also a great read, Pat to remain as UCI head für immer!!
 
May 26, 2009
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hiero2 said:
Also, while we are not part of all the conversations, it certainly seems to me that the Sky re-exam of the dopage palmares of their squad and staff is itself a public self-flagellation. We should be careful about chastising Brailsford et al for not being as publicly presentable and acceptable as Max Headroom. He is human, eh?

This is Dave Brailsford, the guy who saw what happened with David Millar with his own eyes.

Believing they did not do a full-on background check of the doctor who had to take care of their biggest assets is beyond ridiculous. And Mr. Leinders is a very well known person as he was not just team Doctor, he was also one of the management team of Rabo. And yeah, the Michael Rasmussen scandal is also rather well documented :rolleyes:

So either Dave is gross incompetent, which belies everything he has achieved.... or he's a liar and hired Geert knowing his past and just decided it was worth it.

The first is unlikely... which makes it logical that we must go with number two.
 

thehog

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"I like the training, but I also miss the racing at Paris-Nice or Tirreno. I like doing those races and it's hard when you're feeling good but end up having to watch them on the television because you want to be there.

"After all, ride because you enjoyed racing as a kid and that's what we want to do. I prefer to be racing to be honest, but which is best? I don't know, you can do either or, I don't think it makes a massive difference.

"Maybe we could position it [the training] differently and get stuck into some more racing next year. That's one thing we need to reflect on really. I know that Dave [Brailsford, team principal] wants to speak to us all first."

Following a short break from "having to look at Ian Stannard or the other guys all day long" and "staring at the SRM (power meter)" Thomas says he is now ready for the next step.

"I'm raring to go now, ready for the next block of training before I push on for the Tour de France. At the moment I'm on the longlist to go to the Tour so I've just got to keep working hard and hopefully I'll be there."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/ot...e-good-for-the-sport-says-Geraint-Thomas.html