"The stars of the Tour 2008 must tremble"

[Dr. Maserati]

Why are they just covering 08, why not 07, 06, 05, 04 ad infitum. Surely the years pre-08 would have full on doping with CERA and Dynepo even though they were relatively new to the market.

It would appear that the AFLD are acting on specific advice for the 2008 Tour.
"Our decision is based on a number of indications we obtained from various sources," said Bordry.
However Bordry pointed out that samples from the 2007 edition could also be tested again, although that decision would ultimately be made by the UCI.

Anyone who was using Dynepo in 2008 is an idiot. After the 2007 Tour there were reports that Dynepo had been detected in Tour samples. It should not have taken a great leap of logic to figure out that a certified test could be developed at any time.

I found thisarticle from late last year confirming that they had concluded the tests for CERA on the 2008 samples.
However Bordry does go on to say "we are stopping the testing for EPO CERA. We consider it sufficient," he added. "I will keep the samples until the next Tour de France in case there are new [testing] procedures that are put into place" ...... So perhaps....

The reason I suspect Dynepo - is the test was only ratified earlier this year.

The only rider who was retroactively tested by the UCI was Dekker - who was using Dynepo in Christmas 2007. Perhaps the riders were confident that there would be no retroactive testing?

 

[hfer07]

I still have doubts on why they keep insisting on testing the 08 samples- unless the info obtained from Kohl indicates a new unheard doping technique/substance. I'm still waiting for some serious retroactive testing of this year's samples....(of course it won't happen, since "the deal has been done" by you know who....)

 

[pataphysician]

You're forgetting one thing: With the standards so insanely high for a positive test, there are no false positives. You can't be wrongfully convicted.

i was thinking more along the lines of in a car accident and didn't realize that doctors gave a banned painkiller. three days later failed an out of competition test for the painkiller and receive a suspension. I wouldn't want to pay multiple times my salary for something like that. if the contract applied only to EPO, it would be different, but he has no reason to change his contract unless both parties want to renegotiate the whole thing and include that clause, perhaps steegmens wanted something in return.

 

[BroDeal]

One of my issues with retrotesting is that it adds further questions about the fairness of the system. Why was T. Dekker the only one tested for Dynepo? The proper way to do back testing would be to establish a simple rule and then let the chips fall where they may. For example, test the samples of everyone in the top ten in the final GC plus all stage winners. Or choose one third of the samples at random. Testing additional samples because the riders have suspicious blood or hormone levels would be okay, but a situation should not exist where riders think that if they keep all their parameters within limits they will be safe from testing.

 

[BroDeal]

I still have doubts on why they keep insisting on testing the 08 samples- unless the info obtained from Kohl indicates a new unheard doping technique/substance. I'm still waiting for some serious retroactive testing of this year's samples....(of course it won't happen, since "the deal has been done" by you know who....)

They don't want to go back further than 2008 because they know that they would catch nearly all the top riders. By limiting the testing to 2008, the know they can catch a few big names and declare a major victory without gutting the sport. Researchers at the Lausanne lab said that 80% of the 2007 TdF riders were using testosterone or HGH. You don't see anyone urging that all 2007 TdF urine samples be tested for testosterone using the carbon isotope ratio test.

 

[pataphysician]

Would a positive in this retest actually void the results for the intermediate time or just for that specific event?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

They don't want to go back further than 2008 because they know that they would catch nearly all the top riders. By limiting the testing to 2008, the know they can catch a few big names and declare a major victory without gutting the sport. Researchers at the Lausanne lab said that 80% of the 2007 TdF riders were using testosterone or HGH. You don't see anyone urging that all 2007 TdF urine samples be tested for testosterone using the carbon isotope ratio test.

It depends on who we mean by "they"!

The UCI -or more correctly Pat McQuaid -have shown an unwillingness to retest the sample from the 2008 Giro.
Giro orgainser Zomergan was reluctant too.

However the AFLD and CONI have both shown a willingness to pursue a case if there is evidence to support it.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Would a positive in this retest actually void the results for the intermediate time or just for that specific event?

That is an excellent point! Though in the 2008 tdf there was no time bonuses

 

[auscyclefan94]

Riders in bold are the ones I'd be confident about not being doped. Just my opinion.

I'm surprised your convinced that Cav is clean. people suspect things when riders win races

 

[auscyclefan94]

I agree that it's quite a possibility. Also notice that Evans repeatedly said during the Tour and for a long time after it that he wasn't sick, that it was a psychological issue. Midway through the Vuelta he changed his story and it was an illness that he caught just before the Tour. Yeah, right.

Evans coughed up half a litre of phlegm on the stage to Le Grand bornand. He said he was sick but he also said he psychological problems which was most likely the in fighting in S/L which evans said so.

 

[auscyclefan94]

No not all. What's wrong with suspecting Evans? He has been known to work with Ferrari in the past. Maybe you don't like that I suspect your little hero?

No he hasn't?
Read this document:
Michele Ferrari

 

[rata de sentina]

Researchers at the Lausanne lab said that 80% of the 2007 TdF riders were using testosterone or HGH.

Care to provide some sort of reference for that info. To me it makes little sense after the events of 2006 TDF.

 

[cathulu]

As far as I am concerned this is great news. We need an agency to go after the dopers, literally destroy them at all costs. Who cares if it is fair. Some will squeak by, others will get off lucky. Others will go down hard.

Hopefully a bunch will fall and the rest will quake in their boots, knowing that this kind of result can happen at any time in the future. Consider this a random drug test.

And I hope the UCI is found complicit with burying doping results. That would really clean up that corrupt organization.

The sport needs to be destroyed before it can be rebuilt.

But somehow I think no one has the balls to do this and this will peter out to not much.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Care to provide some sort of reference for that info. To me it makes little sense after the events of 2006 TDF.

Martial Saugy the director of the Lab in Lausanne made those claims after the Tour in 2007

"Saugy also found indications for the use of testosterone and growth hormone. "Especially the latter product is very popular at the moment," he added. "As soon as there will be a water-proof test for growth hormone, it will show that 80 percent [of the peloton] is taking it."

He also says that 47 of the 189 riders who took part in that Tour had raced on blood transfusions or EPO.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lab-director-alleges-blood-doping-at-tour

 

[auscyclefan94]

Martial Saugy the director of the Lab in Lausanne made those claims after the Tour in 2007

"Saugy also found indications for the use of testosterone and growth hormone. "Especially the latter product is very popular at the moment," he added. "As soon as there will be a water-proof test for growth hormone, it will show that 80 percent [of the peloton] is taking it."

He also says that 47 of the 189 riders who took part in that Tour had raced on blood transfusions or EPO.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lab-director-alleges-blood-doping-at-tour

How could he know that if he didn't test the samples as it was the Chatenay Malebray who tested them?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

How could he know that if he didn't test the samples as it was the Chatenay Malebray who tested them?

The informaion was from the 'Health Checks" that the riders are subjected to prior to starting the Tour.

 

[pataphysician]

That is an excellent point! Though in the 2008 tdf there was no time bonuses

I suppose i should have said for all results since the tour or just for the the tour itself.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Quickly put together a list of TdF 2008 with:
1) riders that secured a podium place for any of the stages (1,2,3). They should have samples of podium finishers right?
2) confirmed dopers, like Kohl, Ricco, Beltran, Duenas, Schumacher etc
3) top 15 GC
4) For some reason, I added Voigt, Astarloza, Egoi Martinez, Ten Dam, De la Fuente (and perhaps should have added some more GST riders)

Total 56 riders (40, excl the ones caught, were said to be 'suspect')

EVANS Cadel
MCEWEN Robbie
SASTRE CANDIL Carlos
ARVESEN Kurt-Asle
CANCELLARA Fabian
SCHLECK Andy
SCHLECK Frank
VOIGT Jens
ASTARLOZA Mikel (ESP)
MARTINEZ Egoi
SANCHEZ Samuel
VALVERDE Alejandro (ESP)
ARROYO DURAN David
SANCHEZ GIL Luis Leon
KIRCHEN Kim
BURGHARDT Marcus
CAVENDISH Mark
CIOLEK Gerald
DUENAS NEVADO Moises(ESP)
POZZATO Filippo
BELTRAN Manuel(ESP)
KREUZIGER Roman
BALLAN Alessandro
HUSHOVD Thor
GERRANS Simon
BARREDO Carlos(ESP)
STEEGMANS Gert
DESSEL Cyril
EFIMKIN Vladimir
ELMIGER Martin
VALJAVEC Tadej
SCHUMACHER Stefan (GER)
KOHL Bernhard(AUT)
CASPER Jimmy
FEILLU Romain
MENCHOV Denis (RUS)
FREIRE GOMEZ Oscar
TEN DAM Laurens
PINEAU Jérôme
ZABEL Erik
CASAR Sandy
CHAVANEL Sébastien
GILBERT Philippe
ROY Jérémy
RICCO Riccardo (ITA)
COBO ACEBO Juan Jose(SPA)
DE LA FUENTE David
PIEPOLI Leonardo (ITA)
CHAVANEL Sylvain
DUMOULIN Samuel
DUQUE Leonardo
MOINARD Amaël
VANDEVELDE Christian
FRISCHKORN William
MILLAR David
PATE Danny

I wonder if we have seen some DNFs from people who were afraid of getting busted, after Ricco got caught.

Bold = who i am pretty sure were doping in 08 tdf

You could of added some more Gerolsteiner and Suanier Duval riders

 

[PACONi]

So, does anyone think the Vuelta will jump on board the retro testing bandwagon?

 

[Franklin]

This one is dead easy:


sastre: no
menchov: no
evans: no
vdv: no
kirchen: no
astarloza: YES
SCHUMACHER: YES
fschleck: no
ashleck: no
nibali: no

Big handshake on TV. THE CHEATERS HAVE BEEN CAUGHT! THE SPORT IS CLEAN. FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS!

Maybe add in some semi top rider to make it look convincing.

 

[rata de sentina]

Martial Saugy the director of the Lab in Lausanne made those claims after the Tour in 2007

"Saugy also found indications for the use of testosterone and growth hormone. "Especially the latter product is very popular at the moment," he added. "As soon as there will be a water-proof test for growth hormone, it will show that 80 percent [of the peloton] is taking it."

He also says that 47 of the 189 riders who took part in that Tour had raced on blood transfusions or EPO.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lab-director-alleges-blood-doping-at-tour

So in fact the suggestion is 80% on growth hormone saying "growth hormone or testosterone" is a bit ingenious since clearly Saugy is talking about HGH. You would hardly expect widespread testoterone use after the 2006 debacle.

 

[BroDeal]

So in fact the suggestion is 80% on growth hormone saying "growth hormone or testosterone" is a bit ingenious since clearly Saugy is talking about HGH. You would hardly expect widespread testoterone use after the 2006 debacle.

Why not? The only reason FLandis was busted is because his T:TE ratio was too high. Hundred of riders have been regularly using testosterone for a couple of decades, with only a very small number of those riders getting caught. In 2007 Sinkewitz was so used to using it that he slapped on 25mg testosterone gel during a training camp when he knew the riders were likely to be tested.

Until the AFLD started to test for testosterone in 2008 using the carbon isotope ratio test without the initial T:TE screen, there was very little risk in using testosterone.

 

[Cobblestones]

I suppose i should have said for all results since the tour or just for the the tour itself.

As I understand it, officially, it would only change the TdF results. Positive tests during the 2008 TdF would not impact any other results either before or after (say Giro or Vuelta). Now, I don't know if anyone would actually bother to change results retroactively. When you look at the TdF website for instance, Riis is still the winner of 1996 (although for 2006, they have Pereiro), Kohl still has the podium+polka dot from 2008, Astarloza still the 2009 stage 16 win. Also, it doesn't seem that the Giro organizers have removed DDL from their lists.

It's weird but nobody seems to care to update the results. You can't unmake podium photos and media reporting from the event. So you might as well not bother with changing the results. The only instance I know where that has been done is with Landis. Btw. did he ever have to pay back his prize money?

 

[B.Rasmussen]

One of my issues with retrotesting is that it adds further questions about the fairness of the system. Why was T. Dekker the only one tested for Dynepo? The proper way to do back testing would be to establish a simple rule and then let the chips fall where they may. For example, test the samples of everyone in the top ten in the final GC plus all stage winners. Or choose one third of the samples at random. Testing additional samples because the riders have suspicious blood or hormone levels would be okay, but a situation should not exist where riders think that if they keep all their parameters within limits they will be safe from testing.

This is my issue with the retro testing as well. By picking riders instead of testing all or random it's possible to play politics with the testing, and to protect certain riders.

 

[LastRide]

Yes. The reason those particular riders needed to be asked is that the samples remaining weren't already separated into B samples, so they had to be asked for permission to split each sample into 2 so as to form an A and B sample

So if the rider refuses for their samples to be split how can sanctions be imposed?