The Yates (AKA the TUE Brothers)

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The weird thing with Yates was he looked like a million bucks up until Froome's late surge on Prato Nevoso. He seemed to cover the first attack effortlessly and as soon as Froome had reeled in that attempt and gone off himself Yates just got completely Space Jammed and lost 30 seconds to the favourites in no time at all. It was just an instantaneous crack that seems to have carried on into the next days, as if someone just flicked a switch and turned him into pack fodder. Really weird.

As weird as Froome flicking the switch in the other direction and suddenly becoming his old superhuman self after days of mediocrity.
 
Re: Re:

Ripper said:
The Hegelian said:
For mine, the massive collapses of Yates and Pinot do - by some measure - raise doubts about all the 'mutant' arguments in preceding weeks.

I was on the fence about the degree of his improvement, and my position was: let's see what he does in the tt and the third week. Riding super strong in both of those would have been a big transformation on anything he's done in the past. Whereas winning punchy climbing stages by small margins was simply not.

The fact that he spent so much energy earlier that he basically collapsed later does mean that we ought to reconsider those earlier rides.
I tend to agree for the most part. I thought for sure Yates was supercharging based on the effortlessness of his superiority. And while he may have been doping, his complete implosion suggests he was riding way out of his skin to get ahead and just nuked himself. It's not like he lost 5 minutes one day and 10 minutes the next, would have been a pretty monumental crack. 45 minutes is a total shut down.
It was definitely his/MS's tactic: just keep relentlessly trying to take seconds until the tt, because TD will take time. Yates even said at some point "if I explode in the 3rd week, I explode, so be it. This is my only chance to win."

He played his trump card to perfection and obviously he didn't think he would explode, or at least, not to that extent. But who is to know what a 25 year old can or can't do the first time they properly contend for a GT win?
 
Re:

The Hegelian said:
For mine, the massive collapses of Yates and Pinot do - by some measure - raise doubts about all the 'mutant' arguments in preceding weeks.

I was on the fence about the degree of his improvement, and my position was: let's see what he does in the tt and the third week. Riding super strong in both of those would have been a big transformation on anything he's done in the past. Whereas winning punchy climbing stages by small margins was simply not.

The fact that he spent so much energy earlier that he basically collapsed later does mean that we ought to reconsider those earlier rides.
OR

Yates had raised soo many eyebrows & suspicious around his insane performances that whatever was keeping him at that level- he had to tone it down abruptly, making his body react the same way- it just didn't cope well with the absence of the juice...

As of Pinot's shutdown:
But Pinot was not trashing the field in the first two weeks like Yates did- you cannot put Yates & Pinot's performance in the same category. Pinot just had a really bad day that happened to be on the penultimate stage were fatigue got him at the worst time ...
 
Re: Re:

hfer07 said:
The Hegelian said:
For mine, the massive collapses of Yates and Pinot do - by some measure - raise doubts about all the 'mutant' arguments in preceding weeks.

I was on the fence about the degree of his improvement, and my position was: let's see what he does in the tt and the third week. Riding super strong in both of those would have been a big transformation on anything he's done in the past. Whereas winning punchy climbing stages by small margins was simply not.

The fact that he spent so much energy earlier that he basically collapsed later does mean that we ought to reconsider those earlier rides.
OR

Yates had raised soo many eyebrows & suspicious around his insane performances that whatever was keeping him at that level- he had to tone it down abruptly, making his body react the same way- it just didn't cope well with the absence of the juice...

As of Pinot's shutdown:
But Pinot was not trashing the field in the first two weeks like Yates did- you cannot put Yates & Pinot's performance in the same category. Pinot just had a really bad day that happened to be on the penultimate stage were fatigue got him at the worst time ...

Add that Pinot also has ended up in the hospital.
 
Re: Re:

hfer07 said:
The Hegelian said:
For mine, the massive collapses of Yates and Pinot do - by some measure - raise doubts about all the 'mutant' arguments in preceding weeks.

I was on the fence about the degree of his improvement, and my position was: let's see what he does in the tt and the third week. Riding super strong in both of those would have been a big transformation on anything he's done in the past. Whereas winning punchy climbing stages by small margins was simply not.

The fact that he spent so much energy earlier that he basically collapsed later does mean that we ought to reconsider those earlier rides.
OR

Yates had raised soo many eyebrows & suspicious around his insane performances that whatever was keeping him at that level- he had to tone it down abruptly, making his body react the same way- it just didn't cope well with the absence of the juice...
I'm fine with dissenting opinions, but if you examine the thread as it was unfolding in real time, I never accepted that Yates was doing anything insane. The most suss thing for sure was his opening tt. Punchy attacks which drop diesels - but don't take much time out of them - that's been his bread and butter from day one.

Furthermore, it strikes me as extremely implausible that someone on the cusp of winning a GT would suddenly relinquish the juice for fear of how others may impute looking strong. In any case, Froome doesn't suffer from this kind of paranoia!
 
Jul 16, 2010
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macbindle said:
But if you wait a moment somebody will be along with a narrative about how Froome is protected by the UCI or some such.
it didn't strike you as odd that Cookson was defending Sky and Froome after he found out about the AAF (and before it was leaked)? If that doesn't convince you this filth was being protected then nothing will.
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
macbindle said:
But if you wait a moment somebody will be along with a narrative about how Froome is protected by the UCI or some such.
it didn't strike you as odd that Cookson was defending Sky and Froome after he found out about the AAF (and before it was leaked)? If that doesn't convince you this filth was being protected then nothing will.

"is" not "was"
 
Re: Re:

Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Libertine Seguros said:
macbindle said:
Zulle was a 2 time Giro winner. Yates is a newb.
*Vuelta
question

Do you even know what 'doing a Zulle' means?
In the context of the discussion about Yates being in pink then completely cracking? Zulle did much the same. The difference being that Yates is up and coming, whereas Zulle was already a double GT champion.

If you meant something else then, please, enlighten us...
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Re: Re:

macbindle said:
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Libertine Seguros said:
macbindle said:
Zulle was a 2 time Giro winner. Yates is a newb.
*Vuelta
question

Do you even know what 'doing a Zulle' means?
In the context of the discussion about Yates being in pink then completely cracking? Zulle did much the same. The difference being that Yates is up and coming, whereas Zulle was already a double GT champion.

If you meant something else then, please, enlighten us...
So you have absolutlly no idea.

I will give the great and one and only forum member Libertine Seguros the stage to tell you what doing a Zulle means. If she is up for it of course. Given the masterclass she gave the other day on Froomey /Sky I have all faith she can enlighten the unenlightened.
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
Koronin said:
Add that Pinot also has ended up in the hospital.
Is that an argument for or against not doping? Whichever: Mauro Gianetti.
With Pinot I tend to think he's not doping as much as many of the others and his trip to the hospital to me adds to that. To me this would lead to the belief that peloton is cleaner than previously, although not clean. If that makes any sense.
 
Re: Re:

Koronin said:
fmk_RoI said:
Koronin said:
Add that Pinot also has ended up in the hospital.
Is that an argument for or against not doping? Whichever: Mauro Gianetti.
With Pinot I tend to think he's not doping as much as many of the others and his trip to the hospital to me adds to that. To me this would lead to the belief that peloton is cleaner than previously, although not clean. If that makes any sense.
Funny thing is, if it were Froome or Yates I’d guess the assumption from many would be a bad blood bag...
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
Koronin said:
fmk_RoI said:
Koronin said:
Add that Pinot also has ended up in the hospital.
Is that an argument for or against not doping? Whichever: Mauro Gianetti.
With Pinot I tend to think he's not doping as much as many of the others and his trip to the hospital to me adds to that. To me this would lead to the belief that peloton is cleaner than previously, although not clean. If that makes any sense.
Funny thing is, if it were Froome or Yates I’d guess the assumption from many would be a bad blood bag...
Truthfully, I'm not entirely sure what to make of Yates at the moment.
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
Koronin said:
fmk_RoI said:
Koronin said:
Add that Pinot also has ended up in the hospital.
Is that an argument for or against not doping? Whichever: Mauro Gianetti.
With Pinot I tend to think he's not doping as much as many of the others and his trip to the hospital to me adds to that. To me this would lead to the belief that peloton is cleaner than previously, although not clean. If that makes any sense.
Funny thing is, if it were Froome or Yates I’d guess the assumption from many would be a bad blood bag...
That does seem to be the problem here. Our mind is made up before these things happen, when they do, they just confirm what we think. We choose to ignore history for some and call it out as proof for others.
 
Re: Re:

Fearless Greg Lemond said:
macbindle said:
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Libertine Seguros said:
macbindle said:
Zulle was a 2 time Giro winner. Yates is a newb.
*Vuelta
question

Do you even know what 'doing a Zulle' means?
In the context of the discussion about Yates being in pink then completely cracking? Zulle did much the same. The difference being that Yates is up and coming, whereas Zulle was already a double GT champion.

If you meant something else then, please, enlighten us...
So you have absolutlly no idea.

I will give the great and one and only forum member Libertine Seguros the stage to tell you what doing a Zulle means. If she is up for it of course. Given the masterclass she gave the other day on Froomey /Sky I have all faith she can enlighten the unenlightened.
What a complete sh**post. OK, I'm an idiot, what IS doing a Zulle? Being nabbed by the flics during a grand tour? I think you have no idea either but want to sit at the cool kids' table.
 
Voet said that Zülle od'ed on cortisone. I dunno, I am not going to pretend that this is how should look, but I've always found it strange that a rider coming from Once with plenty of GT success is going to suddenly overuse cortisone just because allegedly he saw it work for Dufaux.
 
Re: Re:

The Hegelian said:
He played his trump card to perfection and obviously he didn't think he would explode, or at least, not to that extent. But who is to know what a 25 year old can or can't do the first time they properly contend for a GT win?
Before EPO, they'd podium. Lemond getting third as an assistant. Fignon WON his first grand tour.

EPO changed that and there has been no putting the genie back in the bottle.
 
Re:

roundabout said:
Voet said that Zülle od'ed on cortisone. I dunno, I am not going to pretend that this is how should look, but I've always found it strange that a rider coming from Once with plenty of GT success is going to suddenly overuse cortisone just because allegedly he saw it work for Dufaux.
the goal was to beat Pantani or die trying
 
Re: Re:

DirtyWorks said:
The Hegelian said:
He played his trump card to perfection and obviously he didn't think he would explode, or at least, not to that extent. But who is to know what a 25 year old can or can't do the first time they properly contend for a GT win?
Before EPO, they'd podium. Lemond getting third as an assistant. Fignon WON his first grand tour.

EPO changed that and there has been no putting the genie back in the bottle.
May his memory be a blessing, but I wouldn't be citing Fignon as an example of clean riding. (though, of course, EPO is a giant step over cortisone)
 

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