There is no way Cancellera is Clean!

[roundabout]

How decent is Ricco actually? It may be his bragging nature but how unlikely is it that he was actually doping before turning pro?

 

[JPM London]

That is a logical as telling to police you don't deserve a speeding ticket coz everyone else was going fast too!@

Depends on what meaning you want to force into what I said...

I don't know if you're misreading my posts or if I'm really, really bad at making myself clear, but I have NEVER whined that cycling is treated unfairly because of what goes on in other sports. In fact I have often said the opposite and if you care to read my posts in this thread you'll see that your interpretation is far from what I'm saying.

My point here has only been that you fool yourself if you think other sports are cleaner - in fact they are probably worse.

Now, just to be completely clear, cycling has and is getting what it deserves and it's overdue by far.

 

[The Hitch]

True enough, Hitch. I agree with Kohl et al, I just like how Cancellara throws it down. And since he has, somehow, stayed out of the doping sh*t show I thought it was pertinent to mention that he hasn't been popped yet.

I like how Canc throws it down too. And he has been untainted by any doping allegations. To be fair, few cobble guys or sprinters have. Its mostly climbers. So maybe he is clean. Then again its not like doping wouldnt help these guys too, just different drugs.

But for me its like Floyd said " I dont believe in miracles" ( he said something along those lines cant remember what). And some of Cancs victories seem like miracles.

 

[Chuffy]

#betterlatethannever
Hey, Hitch - sorry about last night, I didn't mean to be personal (I blame the damson brandy). However, I do get peeved when people merrily toss around the accusation that all cyclists are doping. I'll happily accept that many do, but not all. That's far too strong an assertion and you can't prove it any more than I can prove that they don't. So where does that leave us? Agreeing to differ, I hope.

I am curious though. You say

To be fair, few cobble guys or sprinters have. Its mostly climbers.

Why is that? Surely the same drugs will be as useful for them as for any other rider? If not the exact same drugs then other drugs, like steroids, that would show up in regular testing, just like the rest do. That leads us to two possible conclusions. Either they tend to be clean or they have all been using some hitherto undetectable drug that we've never heard of before, and have been for years. Which of those is the most likely? Naughty, naughty Mr Occam...

 

[Darryl Webster]

#betterlatethannever

I am curious though. You say Why is that? Surely the same drugs will be as useful for them as for any other rider? If not the exact same drugs then other drugs, like steroids, that would show up in regular testing, just like the rest do. That leads us to two possible conclusions. Either they tend to be clean or they have all been using some hitherto undetectable drug that we've never heard of before, and have been for years. Which of those is the most likely? Naughty, naughty Mr Occam...

Single day or short stage race winners can do there doping in training and have there blood values in tip top, peek condition for the event and be clear.
A GT rider has to "top up " during the race, especialy after the first 10 days if there to keep there values from plunging.
Ergo...GT riders are far more likely to get caught.
Is Fabio clean?...well after 17 years away from the sport the first time I saw footage of him riding ( TDF prolouge in London) I nearly fell of my chair in incredulity. Utterly charged to the max in my view.
As for his worlds TT last year..amazing, utterly amazing..fabulous to watch...and totaly unbelievable.
I just cannot buy the idea that any rider, on that stage, can be so far ahead it makes the rest look 2nd division.
Just doesnt happen clean.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

I don't understand this at all. Buy into this reasoning, and everybody MUST be doping. If you're too consistent, then you must be doping. If you fluctuate, then you must be doping. The only wiggle room in your rationale is the "huge difference" between performances in any one year. That doesn't mean anything to me because a non doper's performances would be expected to fluctuate wildly.

Race-day performance boosters will get the racer caught (won't they?). Blood doping (including microdosing EPO) is an exception, but it is only useful for maintenance of hematocrit, because the doper will get caught if the spike is too big. All the other techniques focus on long term improvement. The doper is the ultra-consistent robotic machine. Am I missing something?

This dope-fueled consistency is what makes the Tour so boring lately. Everything is calculated and measured. Yawn.

I really don't agree with that. Endurance athletes were more consistent before blood doping. There shouldn't be a HUGE difference between peak form and a level you can sustain for a longer period of time. Nor should your form curve look like a roller coaster.

 

[The Hitch]

#betterlatethannever
Hey, Hitch - sorry about last night, I didn't mean to be personal (I blame the damson brandy). However, I do get peeved when people merrily toss around the accusation that all cyclists are doping. I'll happily accept that many do, but not all. That's far too strong an assertion and you can't prove it any more than I can prove that they don't. So where does that leave us? Agreeing to differ, I hope.

I am curious though. You say Why is that? Surely the same drugs will be as useful for them as for any other rider? If not the exact same drugs then other drugs, like steroids, that would show up in regular testing, just like the rest do. That leads us to two possible conclusions. Either they tend to be clean or they have all been using some hitherto undetectable drug that we've never heard of before, and have been for years. Which of those is the most likely? Naughty, naughty Mr Occam...

Its an interesting debate. I dont know why more climbers test positive than cobbled riders or sprinters.

Then again.
Hincapie - cobbled rider has loads of doping claims against him.
Millar - tter who cant climb doped. He wasnt a climber, he was a tter like Canc.
Pettachi - sprinter.
Hondo - sprinter
Zabel - sprinter
Sentjens- Cobbles rider.
Might be other examples out there which i cant think of atm.

I think perhaps there are more climbers than sprinters and tters. More importantly they get more press when they are caught whereas when a

 

[For The World]

I watched the 2010 Paris Roubaix again last night, and I've got to say - if Cancellara has never used anything, and wasn't enhanced at all on that day, then that was one of the best breakaways i've ever seen. The speed with which he went past everyone else, and just stayed away was insane. He didn't even look that tired after he won.

Boonen looked decently strong as well, but looked to have caved in mentally after he realised that Cancellara had flown the coup. The last 60km of that race just blows my mind.

 

[Polyarmour]

I watched the 2010 Paris Roubaix again last night, and I've got to say - if Cancellara has never used anything, and wasn't enhanced at all on that day, then that was one of the best breakaways i've ever seen. The speed with which he went past everyone else, and just stayed away was insane. He didn't even look that tired after he won.

Boonen looked decently strong as well, but looked to have caved in mentally after he realised that Cancellara had flown the coup. The last 60km of that race just blows my mind.

I agree it was pretty amazing. But then again every so often an athlete comes along and totally dominates their sport for a period. Pete Sampras for example, Tiger Woods, Sir Donald Bradman (test cricket batting average 99.94, next best is Graeme Pollock 60.97) and how can we ever forget ...... FloJo

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I like how Canc throws it down too. And he has been untainted by any doping allegations. To be fair, few cobble guys or sprinters have. Its mostly climbers. So maybe he is clean. Then again its not like doping wouldnt help these guys too, just different drugs.

But for me its like Floyd said " I dont believe in miracles" ( he said something along those lines cant remember what). And some of Cancs victories seem like miracles.

Alright, Hitch and Chuffy;

Here's a bit of a theory. Back to the LA gambit of destroying cycling.

The public wants some semblance of cleanliness in the sport. According to the LA legacy - that being that the TdF is the only race that counts, and that being promulgated through his media toadies via US TV (sorry Paul and Phil) etc. then the only races worth busting riders at are GTs.

UCI, WADA, IOC et al own media rights to certain competitions (alright, not WADA, but you can be sure they're corrupted), the bigger the hero for these stories the better. Factor in the inherrent ignorance towards the sport that the American media has and there you go - as to the classic riders getting busted (or not).

Not much of a story if some Euro (who's name no one can pronounce) gets popped at 'lesser' race (who's name no one can pronounce, either). I know it sounds counter-intuitive, to say nothing of counter-productive, but who is really making the most cash off of cycling? The media.

If the media can garner a bunch of attention, and therefor make a fortune, wouldn't they? They've been proven to be worse than this before.

I know for a fact the classic riders are as dirty as they get, but the media exposure is low. Why? I know they're getting popped, as well as you do.

Well, maybe it's back to the old excuse that I'm just crazy. Hell, I can't argue with that...

 

[TubularBills]

Alright, Hitch and Chuffy;

Here's a bit of a theory. Back to the LA gambit of destroying cycling.

The public wants some semblance of cleanliness in the sport. According to the LA legacy - that being that the TdF is the only race that counts, and that being promulgated through his media toadies via US TV (sorry Paul and Phil) etc. then the only races worth busting riders at are GTs.

UCI, WADA, IOC et al own media rights to certain competitions (alright, not WADA, but you can be sure they're corrupted), the bigger the hero for these stories the better. Factor in the inherrent ignorance towards the sport that the American media has and there you go - as to the classic riders getting busted (or not).

Not much of a story if some Euro (who's name no one can pronounce) gets popped at 'lesser' race (who's name no one can pronounce, either). I know it sounds counter-intuitive, to say nothing of counter-productive, but who is really making the most cash off of cycling? The media.

If the media can garner a bunch of attention, and therefor make a fortune, wouldn't they? They've been proven to be worse than this before.

I know for a fact the classic riders are as dirty as they get, but the media exposure is low. Why? I know they're getting popped, as well as you do.

Well, maybe it's back to the old excuse that I'm just crazy. Hell, I can't argue with that...

A good angle... a lot of salaries and corporate profits involved in maintaining the drama and awareness of high profile events via media rights. Strong motivations to maintain or even stimulate the marketing through manipulating the outcomes via a hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil strategy.

Charismatic superstars kissing good luck charms enroute to exceptional and improbable miracle victories impress the laymen, increase viewership and revenues and realize board room and corporate objectives.

Slam Dunk!

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I'm not sold on it yet, I was just rambling off a theory. A 'conspiracy' one at that. Happy to get ya thinking...

 

[Chuffy]

I'm not sold on it yet, I was just rambling off a theory. A 'conspiracy' one at that. Happy to get ya thinking...

I've had a think and I don't buy it. If A.N Sprinter got busted, we'd know about it. I can't see the European cycling press staying quiet - doping stories sell copies and it doesn't matter what race they got caught in. If anything the media are often accused of stirring up doping stories and rumours, the opposite of what you are suggesting.
Glad to hear you're not too attached to it...

 

[Leopejo]

What exactly do these guys do that his heroic? Do they run into burning building to save lives? Nope. Do they drop into a firefight to try and save the lives of their buddies knowing that they will most likely be killed? Nope. Do they head for every third-world dump when there is a natural disaster to try and help strangers cope? Nope.

Cycling has changed, but you should really read about the history of cycling, and how it has been followed in the decades and its social effects.

Cyclists are entertainers. Period. There's nothing wrong with being an entertainer, but trying to make them into something bigger and more important than that is stupid.

Maybe you should find a forum more suitable to your interests.

 

[Archibald]

I would say that inconsitency through a FULL season of racing is natural. If you're racing all year, there are going to be races that you key on and others that you go into a bit taxed - to hammer yourself a bit more to get the recovery 'training effect' of having over-done it.

I'm just saying that inconsitency throughout a whole season is really not a sign of anything.

makes me think of any other athlete - they all have good days and bad.

they play well one day and cr@p the next, or go through winning streaks and slumps...

 

[Black-Balled]

RIte-o...I am sure you are not bad at conveying your thoughts. I don't listen, my wife can attest to that. She will also say that I hear and will do what I want. But enough about me...back to the dope.

Depends on what meaning you want to force into what I said...

I don't know if you're misreading my posts or if I'm really, really bad at making myself clear, but I have NEVER whined that cycling is treated unfairly because of what goes on in other sports. In fact I have often said the opposite and if you care to read my posts in this thread you'll see that your interpretation is far from what I'm saying.

My point here has only been that you fool yourself if you think other sports are cleaner - in fact they are probably worse.

Now, just to be completely clear, cycling has and is getting what it deserves and it's overdue by far.

 

[JPM London]

RIte-o...I am sure you are not bad at conveying your thoughts. I don't listen, my wife can attest to that. She will also say that I hear and will do what I want. But enough about me...back to the dope.

Yeah, seriously, we haven't had a decent scandal in days... days I tell ya!

Funny, though, I get the same complaints sometimes - apparently it's a guy thing...

 

[The Hitch]

Alright, Hitch and Chuffy;

Here's a bit of a theory. Back to the LA gambit of destroying cycling.

The public wants some semblance of cleanliness in the sport. According to the LA legacy - that being that the TdF is the only race that counts, and that being promulgated through his media toadies via US TV (sorry Paul and Phil) etc. then the only races worth busting riders at are GTs.

UCI, WADA, IOC et al own media rights to certain competitions (alright, not WADA, but you can be sure they're corrupted), the bigger the hero for these stories the better. Factor in the inherrent ignorance towards the sport that the American media has and there you go - as to the classic riders getting busted (or not).

Not much of a story if some Euro (who's name no one can pronounce) gets popped at 'lesser' race (who's name no one can pronounce, either). I know it sounds counter-intuitive, to say nothing of counter-productive, but who is really making the most cash off of cycling? The media.

If the media can garner a bunch of attention, and therefor make a fortune, wouldn't they? They've been proven to be worse than this before.

I know for a fact the classic riders are as dirty as they get, but the media exposure is low. Why? I know they're getting popped, as well as you do.

Well, maybe it's back to the old excuse that I'm just crazy. Hell, I can't argue with that...

While i (obviously) agree with what you say (me, like you being one of the guys from the start saying that classics riders dope) your post, throughout does give the impression of not looking much outside America. Maybe in America on US tv in the US media they dont care about classics and only care about Lance, but in EUrope i think they do. They care about classics, about european riders.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

While i (obviously) agree with what you say (me, like you being one of the guys from the start saying that classics riders dope) your post, throughout does give the impression of not looking much outside America. Maybe in America on US tv in the US media they dont care about classics and only care about Lance, but in EUrope i think they do. They care about classics, about european riders.

My post was in response to my own frustration with the massive number of American posters who only know cycling via Lance, and therefore believe that the TdF is the only race that 'counts'.

Personally, I care a whole lot more for the classics than the GTs. That's Lance's legacy for me. Most of a decade of a group of skeletons doing what ammounted to a tempo contest up the gnarliest climbs in cycling. Boring.

Besides, living in Belgium sort of makes you love the classics more than any other races. You can't deny the drama and operatic qualities of hard-man one-day races...

 

[Benotti69]

I think Paris Roubaix in the rain has to be the best bike race in the world.

why else would the TdF add cobbles to it's race

 

[For The World]

I agree it was pretty amazing. But then again every so often an athlete comes along and totally dominates their sport for a period. Pete Sampras for example, Tiger Woods, Sir Donald Bradman (test cricket batting average 99.94, next best is Graeme Pollock 60.97) and how can we ever forget ...... FloJo

Oh FloJo. Your crazy skinsuits will live on forever.

I see what you mean though, and i would dearly love to think that Cancellara has that ability just like Bartali, Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx and to a lesser extent Hinault and Ocana had during their periods at the top. Due to the increased number of good riders though, i'm not sure he'll stand out as much as those that have won the TDF.

Back on track though... doping and all those such things.

 

[Benotti69]

another Cancellara win with a performance 'too good to be true'....wonder what juice he's on

 

[Anonymous]

Lets avoid the Christmas rush...Cancellara Clinic Thread:

Not making a statement one way or the other right now, but I have a feeling that this spring, there is going to be some discussion of Cancellara in The Clinic. Just thought I'd open a place for discussion.

 

[pedaling squares]

I'm going to merge this into the thread that Benotti reactivated. Should be some good discussion between now and PR. Even a bike change thrown in to keep things lively!

 

[red_flanders]

The moment he starts to get near the top 10 in a grand tour then you can say hes not clean. He is an amazing time trialist and one day racer and now i think he is clean. Its when people start becoming good at something they are not known for that you suspect something (Contador suddenly becoming an amazing time trialist a few years back, now bout to be done for doping)

Can't buy that as a determinant. Museeuw was doped to the gills, and it was obvious when he was riding. He won races he was "supposed to" win only.

Do I think Cancellara is clean? Nope. But I don't have reason to think he's substantively more dirty than anyone else, and I do think the level of doping and the techniques have changed a lot since the early 90's.

We have no testing regime that works. Too many beat it too often and too many second-place guys don't raise a stink. The top class is doping. Cancellara is a beast either way.