Teams & Riders Thibaut Pinot discussion thread

[fauniera]

Aru is like the Black Album: very good, but way overrated . (Netserk I owe you 10 bucks).

Last year he was playing with the big guys: this year again, he'll get down to Earth. He's at Mollema level: really good.

Aru is better than Mollema. Much better. Not even close.

 

[Netserk]

Aru is more like ...And Justice For All

 

[cellardoor]

Re:

Aru is more like ...And Justice For All

You're putting Aru in the same category as Merckx?!?

 

[lenric]

Re: Re:

Aru is more like ...And Justice For All

You're putting Aru in the same category as Merckx?!?

Master of Puppets is waaaaaaaay better than AJFA.

 

[May0maniac]

Re: Re:

Aru is more like ...And Justice For All

You're putting Aru in the same category as Merckx?!?

Master of Puppets is waaaaaaaay better than AJFA.

Can we all agree that Levi was the cycling equivalent of St. Anger?

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

Aru is more like ...And Justice For All

You're putting Aru in the same category as Merckx?!?

Master of Puppets is waaaaaaaay better than AJFA.

Agreed. AJFA is good, but not as good as Ride the Lightning and Master of Puppets.

 

[lenric]

Re: Re:

Aru is more like ...And Justice For All

You're putting Aru in the same category as Merckx?!?

Master of Puppets is waaaaaaaay better than AJFA.

Can we all agree that Levi was the cycling equivalent of St. Anger?

Oh no. Otherwise, how would we rate TJVG? Load/Reload?

 

[Galic Ho]

Re: Re:

The only French-rider who realistically can win TdF is Gaudu, Pinot and Bardet doesn't have that extra compared to their peers, Gaudu potentially does in 4-5 or so. Hopefully he stats at FDJ.

For all three of them, it's two early to tell. If Aru (or Hesjedal) won a GT, Bardet and Tibopino can do it. It's a matter of circumstances. Even Crushweak, barring his fall, would have hit the Jackpot. Gaudu: I have big hopes for him. He's showing a lot at an early age.

No. Oranges aren't apples.

Agreed.

Until the circumstances get there, I don't believe it's fair on a rider to have such an emphasis placed on him emotionally.

Simply so he won't be crippled should a spoken outcome not eventuate.

I didn't speak of Dumoulin as a grand tour winner until he had won the Giro.

Thibaut has shown a very strong pedigree and last year I watched a short documentary during the Tour of his life with FdJ and how his brother helps in his day to day life. He seemed like a genuinely nice down to earth bloke.

FWIW I think his results are of the highest calibre and deserve applause. Very good rider for rectifying his faults and mistakes on the road. Many could learn from his adjustments and rewards for correcting his weaknesses.

Very good rider. Agree him racing the Giro and Vuelta would be better. But I think most GC riders who profit from doing that to be honest. Not to discredit the French and their race, but the Tour is super competitive and often very lackluster for outstanding racing. Personally I liked Froome and Sagan's show of force last year, but that's because I chose to make a considerable effort to cheer and applaud rather than criticize the riding. So there were things worth celebrating, but I had to make the effort to APPLY my cheering and joy.

Many however, just look at the race, see a Sky train and Froome so dominant and view it as anything but joyful.

The problem, is not Sky or Froome. It's how people REACT to the stimulus provided (the race and competition). It's the exact same phenomenon with the public for any nation...they can choose to abuse their national riders, or celebrate them. But when they choose to only accept victory and finishing first as worth celebrating, they are actually setting themselves up for defeat.

Classic example of this manifesting, is Arsene Wenger and Arsenal. As a gunners fan I had to stop following the team on social media, because the 'so called' fans are actually haters and abusers of the team. They're against the club. Not for it. They're the problem...their ideals, and refusal to be grateful, not the club itself.

Are the French people like this? I'm not sure. But many world wide are.

FWIW I like Julian Alaphillipe. I want to see him versus Valverde in the Ardennes next year. Should be exciting. French cycling has a lot of good talent. Tour de France winning talent? We'll see won't we! But regardless, there are many solid and growing French riders like Pinot. Which is good for cycling and France.

 

[Galic Ho]

A lot of what you say makes sense, we're not that far apart.

For the ITT hype, a lot of it began when he won the '16 Criterium International ITT (only 10 km) with one of the best times ever recorded - same course since '13. On par with Tom, Froome...then the Romandie ITT win ahead of the same two was the validation. The national title was great beating ITT World's silver medalist Coppel by a huge margin. So yes, Pinot had significantly improved his skills against the clock.

What I wonder is: how much has he worked his ITT over the winter and since the beginning of the season? Thibaut has clearly regressed. I check his rides on Strava, I see a lot of MTB (maybe it explains his improved bike handling), I follow the FDJ website, I can't find anything. And from the horse's mouth, in his interview on rest day before Montefalco, Tibopino pretty much stated what I'm suspecting...

I don't assume that you dislike Pinot as you wrote. I find you fair in your evaluation of his Giro performance.

I noted you stated he is about the same talent as Aru and if Aru and Hesjedal can win a GT, why can't the French?

They can.

But I also believe Landa could win a GT if things go his way.

But you did answer a question I asked 2 pages back regarding rivals.

I guess it comes down to who is consistent right now!

Going into any grand tour, right now, I expect Quintana and Froome to get first or second place. If not that, they will take up third. Their results lately are either DNF as the worst, or 4th place. It's mostly 1st or 2nd.

They are the big dogs. Both can win a GT in the year. So that leaves one grand tour per year, where you can potentially expect them to not be firing. I just read Movistar reveal their grand plan. Valverde is riding for Nairo at the Tour and aiming for the Vuelta.

So perhaps, just perhaps, Nairo rode the Giro under cooked. Yet he still came second!

Does that diminish Pinot's peformance? On the contrary, it means he was firing really well. Evidence was the last week...equal or just ahead on most days with Nairo. That's uber elite level cycling.

Can that level win a GT? Of course it can. But like you said, a team has to get that GT right for their rider in relation to parcours. Dumoulin did that this Giro. Spot on nailed it. Even losing Kelderman didn't perturb him. Aru did the same when he won the Giro and so did Hesjedal in his win. Both had some things fall really well for them.

Can Aru beat an on form absolute power house GC rider like Contador on his ON days? No.

Does Contador enter a GT at that presumed level like Froome and Quintana have? The last 3 years, he did at the Giro. Maybe AC should just aim for the Giro. For the first time at the Tour, I don't expect AC to be super strong. I use to. This year, I'll presume nothing. We'll see. It would be awesome to witness, because he does attack when strong...that's viewing pleasure for fans.

Agree with you on Pinot improving his ITT. If he can get his level, to within a minute in a GT of Froome/Dumoulin, around where Kirienka, climb at the level he is at, then yes, he can win a GT.

FWIW that GT is not going in theory, to be the Tour if the routes and competition level are like the last few years. Nobody could put out a strong enough wattage when they attacked and NOT be forced to drop it, last year. It's why Bardet's lone successful attack was the best stage in last years Tour. The lack of isolation for GC riders from team mates, aka Sky and Froome, are a hurdle to winning the Tour. Those elements are generally not at the Giro or Vuelta where such attacks do actually break riders and result in time gaps.

Last years Tour was very close because those attacks never eventuated because the riders simply couldn't do them and succeed with Sky's power house riding at the front.

How many final hills did Nibali, Pinot and Quintana have a team mate during this Giro, like Poels or Henao holding their hand until the line like Froome did in the 2016 Tour? Not one stage from memory. They were delivered to the final hill and had to then do the work on their own. That's a good event to ride in for Pinot because then the fight is between the GC rivals and not their domestiques. Reichenbach was very strong as well this Giro. Very strong.

But the Tour is not like that right now with Sky, open to a GC rider being courageous and destroying Froome and Sky...until we see it occur. The 2015 Tour is the only one where I've seen Sky domestiques actually rattled by a team, aka Movistar. Nairo got so close...he just ran out of stages. Maybe this year will be different. :lol:

I hope a lot more of the GC riders, don't bank everything on the Tour and then go for the Vuelta as a consolation prize should they fall a bit short. The years Quintana and Contador have not targetted the Vuelta and Giro as their major aims, tend to be the years other riders win it; Dumoulin, Nibali etc. FdJ and Pinot need to figure what year that is. BTW, I am thinking, not convinced thoroughly, but based on Valverde's article on this site yesterday, that Movistar are aiming for the Tour OVER the Giro. Considering how last years Tour then Vuelta saw Nairo get STRONGER...yeah, I'd be taking him super serious.

SO yeah, aim to fire and peak for the GT Quintana and Froome are not targeting IMO is the best way of maximising the potential for winning a GT in the current cycling climate. Pinot is definitely one of those guys who should be doing this. Naturally, I know many riders would love a podium at the Tour and ignore a win at the Giro or Vuelta...that's their choice. I say go for the win and throw all you have at it. Plus improve your chronot/ITT so you're better than the other GC rivals and you'll be in good standing come the end of what ever you target.

Examples: Cadel's Tour win in 2011, Basso's Giro in 2010. Pinot is kind of similar to both. Have the team aim for peaking at the same race to. Astana have a few examples with Nibali and Aru as well...Nibali's 2014 Tour is not one of them as he was far too dominant there (that's his anomaly). Cobo's Vuelta win counts to. Dumoulin's Giro. Hesjedals.

Taking Quintana and Froome on at top form is a race in futility. Same with AC (we'll see if he can do that again). That's not being smart with goals. Go for the win and parcours that best suit you outside the Tour.

 

[Galic Ho]

Re: Re:

Not the most intelligent move, not practising your TT when the main goal of your season has 70km of it.

Not every rider can be an Evans or a Uran and really improve their TT. Oddly Uran's GC riding went downhill fast after a season of much improved TTs. Most of the time the good stay good and the mediocre don't improve much. Some prefer to get in the wind tunnel and fiddle with equipment and position and sometimes that can be a disaster as well. Some riders like Andy I think just thought if they won the race it would be in the mountains and extra work on the TT wasn't going to improve his times much. Just think what a good TT coach could have done with someone like Pozzovivo. He rode a really good Giro but his TT is just ugly to watch. His knees stick out and he isn't even in a good position. I think some riders find it too difficult to hold such positions for the duration of a TT Compare he and Schleck to Dumoulin and Froome just aerodynamically. Quintana seems to have improved his position in TTs but he never looks really comfortable on a TT bike. I really thought Pinot had a shot at the podium but his TTs were not what I expected. He actually looked pretty nervous before the final TT.

Quintan's aero position seems solid enough to be efficient. It's his cadence and rhythm that need work.

He drops time cornering. Needs to improve that and be 'smoother.' Contrast with Nibali. That is where those 30 seconds he lost the Giro on, were found. Nibali was not as powerful as Tom, but had a very well executed time trial. Had Nairo finished with that time...he'd have been on par with Tom for the closest GT ever.

Those little technique handling efforts are what Pinot should work on. Aim to keep his climbing power and regain his time trialing power. Example right now would be Porte...he appears (will be confirmed in the Tour or proven false) to have found his old quality again. But that could just be over the course of 7 days...we'll see.

That's what makes a rider a real threat on GC. Climbing at the same level as his rivals, who in last years Tour were all within 60-90 seconds mostly, and then having a bonus 40+ seconds on them in the time trial. That allows you so sit back and just follow moves, rather than have to risk blowing up by making them.

Pinot is almost at that point. That's what he is learning...consistency across seasons. That is called BALANCE. That wins big races.

 

[Tonton]

Very interesting analysis, different prospective. Thanks .

 

[Tonton]

Aru is like the Black Album: very good, but way overrated . (Netserk I owe you 10 bucks).

Last year he was playing with the big guys: this year again, he'll get down to Earth. He's at Mollema level: really good.

Aru is better than Mollema. Much better. Not even close.

For the past 12 months? I would argue that. If it wasn't for the run up the Ventoux that never took place because of time adjustments, Sky whining, Bauke would have found himself in a much different spot. Aru has done nothing over the past two years. Not even some good non-GT events. Look at Pinot's record for example...

That's where I draw the line between Aru and Tibopino. Aru has to show that he still is relevant. Pinot did, big time. Asserting himself at the Giro, but what about that Ruta del Sol win? Dropping a red-hot Valverde, catching and smacking Bertie. Big. La Strade when portugal11, knowledgeable contributor, didn't see him in the top-50? Boom!

I made the joke about the old Netserk signature and Aru. When Aru was winning the Giro Della Valle d'Aosta in '12, Tibopino was winning a stage and getting a top-10 in the TdF. To me, no contest. And Bauke Mollema? last year's TdF could have put him on the map. Great Tour. Why freeze the GC when he benefited from the Ventoux crash? It was unfair. The rest of his Tour would have been way different. Podium? Maybe.

EDIT: yes Aru won a GT. but it's not the point: He's no Bardet, he's no Tibopino, Il Grandissimo, Il Capo di Tutti Coppi (like Fausto). My Italian is bad . I know .

 

[movingtarget]

Aru discovered the Tour last year and it bit him which is why he was disappointed to not make the Giro start line. If he makes the top five in the Tour I would be surprised. Mollema's ride in the Tour last year reminded me of SK's ride in the Giro. A personal best which was derailed late in the race.

 

[portugal11]

Aru is like the Black Album: very good, but way overrated . (Netserk I owe you 10 bucks).

Last year he was playing with the big guys: this year again, he'll get down to Earth. He's at Mollema level: really good.

Aru is better than Mollema. Much better. Not even close.

For the past 12 months? I would argue that. If it wasn't for the run up the Ventoux that never took place because of time adjustments, Sky whining, Bauke would have found himself in a much different spot. Aru has done nothing over the past two years. Not even some good non-GT events. Look at Pinot's record for example...

That's where I draw the line between Aru and Tibopino. Aru has to show that he still is relevant. Pinot did, big time. Asserting himself at the Giro, but what about that Ruta del Sol win? Dropping a red-hot Valverde, catching and smacking Bertie. Big. La Strade when portugal11, knowledgeable contributor, didn't see him in the top-50? Boom!

I made the joke about the old Netserk signature and Aru. When Aru was winning the Giro Della Valle d'Aosta in '12, Tibopino was winning a stage and getting a top-10 in the TdF. To me, no contest. And Bauke Mollema? last year's TdF could have put him on the map. Great Tour. Why freeze the GC when he benefited from the Ventoux crash? It was unfair. The rest of his Tour would have been way different. Podium? Maybe.

EDIT: yes Aru won a GT. but it's not the point: He's no Bardet, he's no Tibopino, Il Grandissimo, Il Capo di Tutti Coppi (like Fausto). My Italian is bad . I know .

You are overestimating his performance in giro (I know you are a big fan of pinot but you have to be realistic). He made top5, he was very close to finish inside the podium but he wasn't capable. For pinot, this giro was a failure because his ambition was making top 3 and he didn't make it. Aru doesn't show nothing since 2015 vuelta but he still is a gt winner, 2 podiums (2014 giro and 2015 giro). Last year, he was very disappointing but pinot was terrible too.

 

[carton]

You are overestimating his performance in giro (I know you are a big fan of pinot but you have to be realistic). He made top5, he was very close to finish inside the podium but he wasn't capable. For pinot, this giro was a failure because his ambition was making top 3 and he didn't make it. Aru doesn't show nothing since 2015 vuelta but he still is a gt winner, 2 podiums (2014 giro and 2015 giro). Last year, he was very disappointing but pinot was terrible too.

On one hand, Pinot is climbing with the elite, even if he still has his ocasional off day and couldn't quite hold his time trial form on a three week race. That seems like a trainable issue. So he's got his ducks lined up in a row a bit more than Fabs ATM.

On the other hand he's never actually challenged the elite up hills the same way Aru has, and never actually won a Grand Tour, so it's hard to rate him above the Sardinian.

 

[Pentacycle]

Aru and Pinot are from the same year, but their development is different. Aru only broke through in 2014, the year Pinot already podiumed the TdF. Moreover Pinot already climbed with the best 6 years ago in the Dauphine while Aru was still battling it out with Dombrwski and co on the Italian U23 scene.

 

[Brullnux]

Re:

Aru and Pinot are from the same year, but their development is different. Aru only broke through in 2014, the year Pinot already podiumed the TdF. Moreover Pinot already climbed with the best 6 years ago in the Dauphine while Aru was still battling it out with Dombrwski and co on the Italian U23 scene.

Well, Aru broke through in 2014 and therefore achieved a podium in a GT 2 months before Pinot did. But Aru was always a very big talent, in 2013 he was superb in the last week of the Giro for Nibali, and finishing top 10 on Tre Cime despite working for Nibali. In 2014 I was expecting him to finish top 10 overall in the Giro, but his performance was way better than I thought it would be. He hasn't improved that much since, though.

 

[Tonton]

...broke through in '14, which goes to show that Astana's '14 was the new '94. Another team had it going that year, and it all disappeared by '96, the new '16 .

The way Aru got whacked last year was something. At least, Tibopino's '15 campaign (16th and AdH stage) was not an overall failure like Aru '16. Bonnet almost dies in front of him stage 3, flat on the cobbles and dead di battery stage 4, crash stage 5. Done. Having lost all hopes, Thibaut took a couple of days of, one in the Pyrenees, one in the Alps, but didn't sink like Aru last year. Pinot fought. Aru's performance was painful to watch last year. A casual fan would have asked: GT winner? That guy? It was embarrassing how Fabio got dominated, never was a factor, a Maxime Monfort (with all due respect for Maxime). I hope that he doesn't desintegrate altogether like a TJVG, but I need something to believe in Aru. And my feeling is that I won't see squatt.

Meanwhile, Tibopino is showing something. Something great.

portugal11, you grouchy you !

I have a dream, and that's Tibopino winning the Mont du Chat stage. That would mean legend status in Franche-Comte forever. Although the climbs are not in Franche-Comte proper, it's the southern tip of the Jura, the spinal cord of Franche-Comte. These are our mountains. This course won't happen again, or maybe in 10, 20, 30 years. It is HUGE for my people. It will be a big day GC-wise, so it's easier said than done. This is where Quintana needs a win to have a shot. Where Contador can destroy the opposition. No way in hell that I work on that day. Much tougher than the Stelvio stage at the Giro. Artemare-Virieu Grand Colombier, some will dismount.

I'd rather see Thibaut at la Vuelta, but if he races the TdF, give us a couple of stage wins, or a stage and the polka-dot jersey. And I'll be thrilled.

 

[Pentacycle]

Tonton, I know you're the number 1 Tibofan. But it baffles me how a mod can be so clinically condescending to a rival who has known so much misfortune and accidents the past year... Last year's spring started with a decent 2nd place ahead of Pinot on Malhao, and ended with back pains and a crash in Amstel. His hardfought 6th place in GC in the Tour disappeared one day before the Champs Elysees. This year started out great, until a stomach bug hit him in Tirreno. And we all know what happened in the lead-up to the centennial Giro that started in his home region. So Aru definitely does not need to be stomped in the ground right now.

The 1990 generation is poised for legendary status, and has just taken its fourth GT win. Greatness may also await Chaves, Bardet and Pinot in the high mountains the coming years, so we can all cheer about their friendly rivalries.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

Tonton, I know you're the number 1 Tibofan. But it baffles me how a mod can be so clinically condescending to a rival who has known so much misfortune and accidents the past year... Last year's spring started with a decent 2nd place ahead of Pinot on Malhao, and ended with back pains and a crash in Amstel. His hardfought 6th place in GC in the Tour disappeared one day before the Champs Elysees. This year started out great, until a stomach bug hit him in Tirreno. And we all know what happened in the lead-up to the centennial Giro that started in his home region. So Aru definitely does not need to be stomped in the ground right now.

The 1990 generation is poised for legendary status, and has just taken its fourth GT win. Greatness may also await Chaves, Bardet and Pinot in the high mountains the coming years, so we can all cheer about their friendly rivalries.

I beg to differ: I want Aru to succeed. Enough Berties, Dawgs, and even Nairo is getting old these days. If I'm out of bounds, trust me, I won't be a mod for long. I'm not trying to cross the line, yet ignoring the elephant in the room is a disservice to the debate. I just make the point that Astana did everything good and now it's not good enough. Where's Vino?

When I state something that bothers, me being a mod is the first line of defense. Like I shouldn't speak my mind. I should be smooth and vanilla, not hurt anyone's feelings. If I hurted your feelings, I'm sorry.

Bad luck for Aru? Yes, and major bad luck for Pinot too. And as far as the debate Pinot vs. Aru is concerned, I make the point that Tibopino has done a lot in '17, Aru has done nothing. Blame me for being a mod all you want, an fan-boy ( and I am), but that's the truth.

You mention Malhao, watch the tape: see how Thibaut was beating Aru and Aru ran him to the fence...not good.

 

[Tonton]

So Astana is back . Vino must have read my last post...two for the price of one.

Looking (again) at the TdF route, I see Thibaut going full GC mode to the PDBF. Winning the stage and taking the yellow jersey in his backyard is far fetched considering the opposition, but it's worth a shot.

Then two stages, losing 15 minutes. Rest before two Jura stages dear to his heart. KOM points, BOD both days, at least one stage win.

More rest KOM points, BOD on the Izoard stage, win.

Polka dot jersey in Paris. Slightly in the top-10: 8th?

 

[Alexandre B.]

So Astana is back . Vino must have read my last post...two for the price of one.

Looking (again) at the TdF route, I see Thibaut going full GC mode to the PDBF. Winning the stage and taking the yellow jersey in his backyard is far fetched considering the opposition, but it's worth a shot.

Then two stages, losing 15 minutes. Rest before two Jura stages dear to his heart. KOM points, BOD both days, at least one stage win.

More rest KOM points, BOD on the Izoard stage, win.

Polka dot jersey in Paris. Slightly in the top-10: 8th?

Losing 15 minutes while wearing the yellow jersey is not an ideal situation

 

[Tonton]

[quote="Alexandre B.[/url
Losing 15 minutes while wearing the yellow jersey is not an ideal situation [/quote]
...but the only solution if Pinot wants the PDBF stage/yellow and the polka-dot. Otherwise, there's a choice that he needs to make. I went back and saw how Majka went about his KOM wins: he started to gather points early. Pinot can't play GC after la PDBF IMO.

 

[Netserk]

In '14 Majka didn't get any points before stage 13, afaik.

But for sure, he should be in the break in the stage over Chat.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

In '14 Majka didn't get any points before stage 13, afaik.

But for sure, he should be in the break in the stage over Chat.

Or even on the stage to Les Rousses (stage 8).

I apologize if I didn't make my point clear enough, which is that there are many tempting potential objectives for Pinot at Le Tour. He can't be too greedy. As far as my mention of Majka, in '14 the first 12 stages were undulating at best (except stage 10 - PDBF). The GC situation was unique as well.

'16 is very telling though: a masterpiece. Majka was already 20 minutes behind after four stages. He scored big by finishing 3rd on Le Lioran (stage 5). After that, Majka could take all the BOD and cash in,i.e. stage 15, when he put it definitely in the bag, having an insurmountable lead.