Teams & Riders Thibaut Pinot discussion thread

[veji11]

Re: Re:

Mental strenght is what separates a super domestique from a leader. pinot doesn't have it and he is very limited ( he has a good time trial among gc guys and that's it. i don't hate pinot but he seems a uran 2 for me.

No, mental strength is often what separates a champion from a challenge... not a leader from a domestique.. Pinot has the level to be a leader in 15 of the 17 WT teams. He might never win a big race or a GT because of this mental issue, true, but let's not talk rubish here. He is not a domestique... And where in your right mind is Uran a domestique ??? Gee....

 

[portugal11]

Re: Re:

Mental strenght is what separates a super domestique from a leader. pinot doesn't have it and he is very limited ( he has a good time trial among gc guys and that's it. i don't hate pinot but he seems a uran 2 for me.

No, mental strength is often what separates a champion from a challenge... not a leader from a domestique.. Pinot has the level to be a leader in 15 of the 17 WT teams. He might never win a big race or a GT because of this mental issue, true, but let's not talk rubish here. He is not a domestique... And where in your right mind is Uran a domestique ??? Gee....

Uran isn't capable of finishing top 10 in giro and you think he doesn't deserve to be a domestique for another rider? do you think if he leaves cannondale for any other team, uran would be a leader? he is leader because cannondale is by far the worst wt team in cycling.
fdj is getting better and better as a team but pinot isn't improve as a gt rider. this is my opinion, you cannot agree but what i told is the true and you have to explain why you say that pinot would be a leader in 15 of 17 wt teams (tour's leader?)

 

[Breh]

Uran was 2nd twice. He was 7th this year. So 11 out of 17teams would've been better off with Uran as leader this Giro.

The nonsense you are spouting here is far from the truth.

kthxbai

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Mental strenght is what separates a super domestique from a leader. pinot doesn't have it and he is very limited ( he has a good time trial among gc guys and that's it. i don't hate pinot but he seems a uran 2 for me.

No, mental strength is often what separates a champion from a challenge... not a leader from a domestique.. Pinot has the level to be a leader in 15 of the 17 WT teams. He might never win a big race or a GT because of this mental issue, true, but let's not talk rubish here. He is not a domestique... And where in your right mind is Uran a domestique ??? Gee....

Uran isn't capable of finishing top 10 in giro and you think he doesn't deserve to be a domestique for another rider? do you think if he leaves cannondale for any other team, uran would be a leader? he is leader because cannondale is by far the worst wt team in cycling.
fdj is getting better and better as a team but pinot isn't improve as a gt rider. this is my opinion, you cannot agree but what i told is the true and you have to explain why you say that pinot would be a leader in 15 of 17 wt teams (tour's leader?)

He just did.

 

[portugal11]

Re: Re:

Mental strenght is what separates a super domestique from a leader. pinot doesn't have it and he is very limited ( he has a good time trial among gc guys and that's it. i don't hate pinot but he seems a uran 2 for me.

No, mental strength is often what separates a champion from a challenge... not a leader from a domestique.. Pinot has the level to be a leader in 15 of the 17 WT teams. He might never win a big race or a GT because of this mental issue, true, but let's not talk rubish here. He is not a domestique... And where in your right mind is Uran a domestique ??? Gee....

Uran isn't capable of finishing top 10 in giro and you think he doesn't deserve to be a domestique for another rider? do you think if he leaves cannondale for any other team, uran would be a leader? he is leader because cannondale is by far the worst wt team in cycling.
fdj is getting better and better as a team but pinot isn't improve as a gt rider. this is my opinion, you cannot agree but what i told is the true and you have to explain why you say that pinot would be a leader in 15 of 17 wt teams (tour's leader?)

He just did.

He did two years ago. I'm talking now (i was a little harsh. let's reformulate, nowadays uran isn't capable of finishing top5 in giro)

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Mental strenght is what separates a super domestique from a leader. pinot doesn't have it and he is very limited ( he has a good time trial among gc guys and that's it. i don't hate pinot but he seems a uran 2 for me.

No, mental strength is often what separates a champion from a challenge... not a leader from a domestique.. Pinot has the level to be a leader in 15 of the 17 WT teams. He might never win a big race or a GT because of this mental issue, true, but let's not talk rubish here. He is not a domestique... And where in your right mind is Uran a domestique ??? Gee....

Uran isn't capable of finishing top 10 in giro and you think he doesn't deserve to be a domestique for another rider? do you think if he leaves cannondale for any other team, uran would be a leader? he is leader because cannondale is by far the worst wt team in cycling.
fdj is getting better and better as a team but pinot isn't improve as a gt rider. this is my opinion, you cannot agree but what i told is the true and you have to explain why you say that pinot would be a leader in 15 of 17 wt teams (tour's leader?)

He just did.

He did two years ago. I'm talking now (i was a little harsh. let's reformulate, nowadays uran isn't capable of finishing top5 in giro)

No, he literally finished in top-10 this year.

 

[portugal11]

Re: Re:

Mental strenght is what separates a super domestique from a leader. pinot doesn't have it and he is very limited ( he has a good time trial among gc guys and that's it. i don't hate pinot but he seems a uran 2 for me.

No, mental strength is often what separates a champion from a challenge... not a leader from a domestique.. Pinot has the level to be a leader in 15 of the 17 WT teams. He might never win a big race or a GT because of this mental issue, true, but let's not talk rubish here. He is not a domestique... And where in your right mind is Uran a domestique ??? Gee....

Uran isn't capable of finishing top 10 in giro and you think he doesn't deserve to be a domestique for another rider? do you think if he leaves cannondale for any other team, uran would be a leader? he is leader because cannondale is by far the worst wt team in cycling.
fdj is getting better and better as a team but pinot isn't improve as a gt rider. this is my opinion, you cannot agree but what i told is the true and you have to explain why you say that pinot would be a leader in 15 of 17 wt teams (tour's leader?)

He just did.

He did two years ago. I'm talking now (i was a little harsh. let's reformulate, nowadays uran isn't capable of finishing top5 in giro)

No, he literally finished in top-10 this year.[/quote]
Did you see my last phrase? my point here is that uran cannot perform in a decent level (for a gt leader) to deserve leadership in a gt. pinot is the same for me. I was refering his podium two years ago

 

[HelloDolly]

I have never heard such rubbish in my life about Pinot (and Uran)

Do you think that a man that had a major phobia with descending and overcame this in one year is weak ? Or a man who went from having a mediocre TT to a top TT among GC rider sin one year is weak ? . It sems no rider can have a bad run of luck without being written off...Pinot is one of the best climbers in the peloton in GTs and has one of the better TTs...You'd swear on here that if a rider does not win a GT they are weak , past it or somehow second rate ...Its almost as if every rider should ride for Froome, Quintana or Contador .....

As for Uran ...he has lost his way but he has class ...again a rider with ability to podium in the Giro

 

[SafeBet]

By his reasoning, there should be at least a dozen WT teams composed entirely of domestiques.

 

[portugal11]

Re:

By his reasoning, there should be at least a dozen WT teams composed entirely of domestiques.

No but they could go as stage hunters and not riding for a useless top10 (as I stated before i think uran and pinot won't finish top5 at giro 2017)

 

[Tonton]

Re:

I have never heard such rubbish in my life about Pinot (and Uran)

Do you think that a man that had a major phobia with descending and overcame this in one year is weak ? Or a man who went from having a mediocre TT to a top TT among GC rider sin one year is weak ? . It sems no rider can have a bad run of luck without being written off...Pinot is one of the best climbers in the peloton in GTs and has one of the better TTs...You'd swear on here that if a rider does not win a GT they are weak , past it or somehow second rate ...Its almost as if every rider should ride for Froome, Quintana or Contador .....

As for Uran ...he has lost his way but he has class ...again a rider with ability to podium in the Giro

I couldn't agree with you more. Of course, I'm biased. But I'm not a blind fanboy either. First of all, you can't be a pro cyclist if you don't have a strong mental. You don't go through all the training that these guys go through if you're not as tough as nails. You don't finish a GT if you are weak. Let alone fight for stages or a podium. We're talking about cycling here: not curling.

Thibaut proved something at the '15 TdF that many seem to overlook: he lost any chance of a high finish before the race really began. He took a beating on social media. In this very forum, many wrote that he should DNF and prepare for the Vuelta. Instead, he hung in there, overcame the Mende desillusion, fell down the Col d'Allos when the stage win was within his grasp. and he kept fighting. And he triumphed atop l'AdH. That's not being weak in my book.

Tibopino had a great spring in '16. I will repeat, and check Strava if you'd like: he's was a 19K guy since '12: this year, he showed up at the Dauphine with 14,000 plus kilometers in his legs. And it was at the Dauphine that he first showed signs of weakness. He beat Bardet for a stage on pure guts. So it's not like his poor TdF form came out of nowhere. The mental thing as an explanation is really simplistic IMO. The facts contradict this hypothesis.

Not to say that Tibopino is the toughest of the toughests: he's no Badger, of course. And speaking about Hinault, when he abandoned the '80 TdF, that's what many called him: weak. Really ?

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

.

First of all, you can't be a pro cyclist if you don't have a strong mental

Andy Schleck begs to differ

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

.

First of all, you can't be a pro cyclist if you don't have a strong mental

Andy Schleck begs to differ

. I though about him while writing my piece. But seriously, Andy may not have been (perceived) as tough as others, but he was plenty tough enough. You don't put up a display like Zoncolan '07 (the best AS IMO) if you are not very, very, very tough.

 

[portugal11]

Re: Re:

I have never heard such rubbish in my life about Pinot (and Uran)

Do you think that a man that had a major phobia with descending and overcame this in one year is weak ? Or a man who went from having a mediocre TT to a top TT among GC rider sin one year is weak ? . It sems no rider can have a bad run of luck without being written off...Pinot is one of the best climbers in the peloton in GTs and has one of the better TTs...You'd swear on here that if a rider does not win a GT they are weak , past it or somehow second rate ...Its almost as if every rider should ride for Froome, Quintana or Contador .....

As for Uran ...he has lost his way but he has class ...again a rider with ability to podium in the Giro

I couldn't agree with you more. Of course, I'm biased. But I'm not a blind fanboy either. First of all, you can't be a pro cyclist if you don't have a strong mental. You don't go through all the training that these guys go through if you're not as tough as nails. You don't finish a GT if you are weak. Let alone fight for stages or a podium. We're talking about cycling here: not curling.

Thibaut proved something at the '15 TdF that many seem to overlook: he lost any chance of a high finish before the race really began. He took a beating on social media. In this very forum, many wrote that he should DNF and prepare for the Vuelta. Instead, he hung in there, overcame the Mende desillusion, fell down the Col d'Allos when the stage win was within his grasp. and he kept fighting. And he triumphed atop l'AdH. That's not being weak in my book.

Tibopino had a great spring in '16. I will repeat, and check Strava if you'd like: he's was a 19K guy since '12: this year, he showed up at the Dauphine with 14,000 plus kilometers in his legs. And it was at the Dauphine that he first showed signs of weakness. He beat Bardet for a stage on pure guts. So it's not like his poor TdF form came out of nowhere. The mental thing as an explanation is really simplistic IMO. The facts contradict this hypothesis.

Not to say that Tibopino is the toughest of the toughests: he's no Badger, of course. And speaking about Hinault, when he abandoned the '80 TdF, that's what many called him: weak. Really ?

I continue to beleive that he ruined his chances in both tours (2015 and 2016) because he can't handle the pressure. in 2015, he was very strong in suisse and he went for le tour as a past third place. this year he was really strong in some one week races and french media was only talking about him like in 2015 and he didn't handle the pressure. maybe this year, he could go to il giro under the radio and perform on a very strong level

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

I continue to beleive that he ruined his chances in both tours (2015 and 2016) because he can't handle the pressure. in 2015, he was very strong in suisse and he went for le tour as a past third place. this year he was really strong in some one week races and french media was only talking about him like in 2015 and he didn't handle the pressure. maybe this year, he could go to il giro under the radio and perform on a very strong level

Yes, I hope he rides the Giro in his spring of '16 form. Having said that, although I disagree with you, it is a fact that pressure can get to Pinot. As much as I think that the cause in '16 was burnout/sickness, his rough start of the '15 TdF certainly had to do with pressure, to a large extend. Bad luck stroke too (more on bad luck in the next paragraph). To his credit, he overcame adversity.

I don't see how Tibopino is different from other riders, including some renown for being among the toughest. Pinot's mind has to be in the right place for top-performance. At this level, you can't have negative thoughts, wonder what can go wrong. That's when bad things happen. Like Nibali falling in descents (TdF and WRRC), Contador falling early in GTs. Bad luck? Yes, maybe. Thinking too much instead of focusing on the task at hand? Surely.

I believe in Thibaut Pinot. 2017 will obviously be a career-defining year for him.

 

[May0maniac]

Riding the Giro instead of the Tour will take a ton of pressure (and more important, the big French media hype) away from him and hard mountain stages and bad weather seem to suit him very well, just like the fact that there will be 2 mid length ITTs.
He's not a brilliant descender, but he has overcome his fear and was fine in 2015 Lombardia, I don't think that someone like Kruijswijk is much better and Zakarin is probably even worse.
On paper Pinot in his spring of 2016 form should be able to finish in the top 5 and fight for a podium spot.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

.

First of all, you can't be a pro cyclist if you don't have a strong mental

Andy Schleck begs to differ

. I though about him while writing my piece. But seriously, Andy may not have been (perceived) as tough as others, but he was plenty tough enough. You don't put up a display like Zoncolan '07 (the best AS IMO) if you are not very, very, very tough.

I don't really remember what was so special about that, except for insane climbing times. Andy Schleck had climbing legs in spades. That has little to do with mental fortitude. I loved bashing him, mostly because I loved it when he was actually going for it.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

.

First of all, you can't be a pro cyclist if you don't have a strong mental

Andy Schleck begs to differ

. I though about him while writing my piece. But seriously, Andy may not have been (perceived) as tough as others, but he was plenty tough enough. You don't put up a display like Zoncolan '07 (the best AS IMO) if you are not very, very, very tough.

I don't really remember what was so special about that, except for insane climbing times. Andy Schleck had climbing legs in spades. That has little to do with mental fortitude. I loved bashing him, mostly because I loved it when he was actually going for it.

Little to do with mental fortitude? I sooo disagree. Talent, genetics are not enough: you have to be able to suffer, push the limits of pain, you have to be very tough to submit your body to that kind of a beating. His Zoncolan behind the two Saunier-Duval, alone, hanging on, to me that shows a fighter.

Regardless, Tibopino will be back with a vengeance. That's my (not so) bold prediction for 2017.

 

[HelloDolly]

In fact talking about mental fortitiude and toughness in cycling is very biased on here ...Some of the more mediocre riders can have it in spades but it is not recognised as they don't have the top talent to win except occasionally ...lets say Thomas de Gednt as an example

I also by the way thought Ryder Hesejedal was mentally tough as not built like a climber and hung in there ...Mental fortitude comes in many guises...

Its easy to be a top climber if you are born with the attributes and have the geographical upbriging of say Quintana

I also think Geraint Thomas is a vey tough rider ...in fact tougher than Froome
Contador is a tough cookie and so was Cadel Evans

 

[Red Rick]

I really, really disagree that being able to go deep and endure physical pain is the same thing as mental fortitude. They're 2 entirely different things.

 

[kingjr]

Re:

I really, really disagree that being able to go deep and endure physical pain is the same thing as mental fortitude. They're 2 entirely different things.

Take Ullrich and Armstrong for example, I highly doubt that during a race their ability to endure pain was any different. But one was a prime example of mental fortitude, the other not so much.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re:

I really, really disagree that being able to go deep and endure physical pain is the same thing as mental fortitude. They're 2 entirely different things.

You are entitled to your opinion but being able to go deep is a mental thing as all pain is in the brain and to be able to endure pain is a very strong mental requirement of fortitude

However it was not my point...the riders I pointed to are able to continue when it would be easier to give up ...to beleive in themsleve when against the odds

What else is mental fortitude

Armstrong as an example is wrong ...he was a bully full of EPO ...see very little fortitude in this.... in fact his need for control and willingness to cheat shows lack of mental fortitude ...As I said mental fortitude is not about wininng as the bias on here would suggest, In fact Simeoni had more mental fortitude than Armstrong . he stood against everyone else whne it would ahve been easier to fall in line and when he could have kept his job. That is mental fortitude

Froome has come out of his shell some what in 2016 but he only has done so by being surrounded by the strongest team and attacking from 2km previously and realising his comparative abilty ...hardly the great test of mental fortitue. But I do think he has fortitude mostly from his application to be Kenya's olympic representative.

As I said people are mixing up mental strength with the abilty to win ..
Mental strnegth is the ability to overcome even/especially when the odds are against you

The Badger had it in droves , Stephen Roche at the 1987 Giro, Contador in 2009 ...Cadel Evans for most of his career ...these are all winners but there are others who didnt win like these and have it also as they rode and believed in themselves and hung in there without that ability and achieved results

 

[portugal11]

Re: Re:

I really, really disagree that being able to go deep and endure physical pain is the same thing as mental fortitude. They're 2 entirely different things.

You are entitled to your opinion but being able to go deep is a mental thing as all pain is in the brain and to be able to endure pain is a very strong mental requirement of fortitude

However it was not my point...the riders I pointed to are able to continue when it would be easier to give up ...to beleive in themsleve when against the odds

What else is mental fortitude

Armstrong as an example is wrong ...he was a bully full of EPO ...see very little fortitude in this.... in fact his need for control and willingness to cheat shows lack of mental fortitude ...As I said mental fortitude is not about wininng as the bias on here would suggest, In fact Simeoni had more mental fortitude than Armstrong . he stood against everyone else whne it would ahve been easier to fall in line and when he could have kept his job. That is mental fortitude

Froome has come out of his shell some what in 2016 but he only has done so by being surrounded by the strongest team and attacking from 2km previously and realising his comparative abilty ...hardly the great test of mental fortitue. But I do think he has fortitude mostly from his application to be Kenya's olympic representative.

As I said people are mixing up mental strength with the abilty to win ..
Mental strnegth is the ability to overcome even/especially when the odds are against you

The Badger had it in droves , Stephen Roche at the 1987 Giro, Contador in 2009 ...Cadel Evans for most of his career ...these are all winners but there are others who didnt win like these and have it also as they rode and believed in themselves and hung in there without that ability and achieved results

Cadel evans never had a strong mentality, he lost a lot of gt's because of this

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

.

First of all, you can't be a pro cyclist if you don't have a strong mental

Andy Schleck begs to differ

. I though about him while writing my piece. But seriously, Andy may not have been (perceived) as tough as others, but he was plenty tough enough. You don't put up a display like Zoncolan '07 (the best AS IMO) if you are not very, very, very tough.

Andy was tough when he wanted to be. Otherwise, during the periods that aren't the month of July and the Ardennes week (and that initial appearance early in his career at the Giro), he could care less.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

I really, really disagree that being able to go deep and endure physical pain is the same thing as mental fortitude. They're 2 entirely different things.

You are entitled to your opinion but being able to go deep is a mental thing as all pain is in the brain and to be able to endure pain is a very strong mental requirement of fortitude

However it was not my point...the riders I pointed to are able to continue when it would be easier to give up ...to beleive in themsleve when against the odds

What else is mental fortitude

Armstrong as an example is wrong ...he was a bully full of EPO ...see very little fortitude in this.... in fact his need for control and willingness to cheat shows lack of mental fortitude ...As I said mental fortitude is not about wininng as the bias on here would suggest, In fact Simeoni had more mental fortitude than Armstrong . he stood against everyone else whne it would ahve been easier to fall in line and when he could have kept his job. That is mental fortitude

Froome has come out of his shell some what in 2016 but he only has done so by being surrounded by the strongest team and attacking from 2km previously and realising his comparative abilty ...hardly the great test of mental fortitue. But I do think he has fortitude mostly from his application to be Kenya's olympic representative.

As I said people are mixing up mental strength with the abilty to win ..
Mental strnegth is the ability to overcome even/especially when the odds are against you

The Badger had it in droves , Stephen Roche at the 1987 Giro, Contador in 2009 ...Cadel Evans for most of his career ...these are all winners but there are others who didnt win like these and have it also as they rode and believed in themselves and hung in there without that ability and achieved results

Cadel evans never had a strong mentality, he lost a lot of gt's because of this

Evans was tough enough, just eccentric, quirky and often overmatched individually and team-wise.