Teams & Riders Thibaut Pinot discussion thread

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

.

First of all, you can't be a pro cyclist if you don't have a strong mental

Andy Schleck begs to differ

. I though about him while writing my piece. But seriously, Andy may not have been (perceived) as tough as others, but he was plenty tough enough. You don't put up a display like Zoncolan '07 (the best AS IMO) if you are not very, very, very tough.

Andy was tough when he wanted to be. Otherwise, during the periods that aren't the month of July and the Ardennes week (and that initial appearance early in his career at the Giro), he could care less.

Agree. It's his whining off the bike that has given him the reputation of being mentally weak. On the bike, he was tougher than 99.99% of the rest of us. That is my point: all these guys are tough. Yes, some are tougher than others, and I agree that it can make a difference. Also what makes a difference is confidence. Success brings confidence.

The ability to move on after setbacks is crucial. And I used Nibali uncharacteristic fall in the TdF, and then with the pressure of his main objective, the Olympics. Bertie falling week 1 at two GTs. Two very tough guys...who maybe were thinking too much. Some may say they're mentally weak: I don't.

And yes, the ability to inflict pain to yourself tothis level is a sign of mental toughness. I think we all remember struggling up a climb, refusing to give up. Refusing to stop. Refusing defeat. As brave as we may be, that's nothing compared to what pro cyclists go through. All pro-cyclists. Not just Hinault. All of them. We tend to forget it.

 

[Scarponi]

Re: Re:

I really, really disagree that being able to go deep and endure physical pain is the same thing as mental fortitude. They're 2 entirely different things.

You are entitled to your opinion but being able to go deep is a mental thing as all pain is in the brain and to be able to endure pain is a very strong mental requirement of fortitude

However it was not my point...the riders I pointed to are able to continue when it would be easier to give up ...to beleive in themsleve when against the odds

What else is mental fortitude

Armstrong as an example is wrong ...he was a bully full of EPO ...see very little fortitude in this.... in fact his need for control and willingness to cheat shows lack of mental fortitude ...As I said mental fortitude is not about wininng as the bias on here would suggest, In fact Simeoni had more mental fortitude than Armstrong . he stood against everyone else whne it would ahve been easier to fall in line and when he could have kept his job. That is mental fortitude

Froome has come out of his shell some what in 2016 but he only has done so by being surrounded by the strongest team and attacking from 2km previously and realising his comparative abilty ...hardly the great test of mental fortitue. But I do think he has fortitude mostly from his application to be Kenya's olympic representative.

As I said people are mixing up mental strength with the abilty to win ..
Mental strnegth is the ability to overcome even/especially when the odds are against you

The Badger had it in droves , Stephen Roche at the 1987 Giro, Contador in 2009 ...Cadel Evans for most of his career ...these are all winners but there are others who didnt win like these and have it also as they rode and believed in themselves and hung in there without that ability and achieved results

Cadel evans never had a strong mentality, he lost a lot of gt's because of this

I have never disagreed with a post on this forum more than this one. Cadel was easily the 10th+ best climber in an grand tour he rode in and maybe at absolute peak form sat in 5-8th best, yet his mental fortitude was the reason why he was always 2nd to 4th best, Plenty of better climbers cracked way way way ahead of of a man who was not a natural climber yet somehow became always in the 2nd or 3rd best climber FACT. It may feel like he crac ked against Contadors attacks but only Froome (maybe Quintana now but im talking about Cadels er)a has proven to be better and Cadel in 2011 and other occasional rides ( fleche wallone) to outclimb him.

 

[Breh]

Evans had a terrific TT. Had very little to do with mental strength.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

I really, really disagree that being able to go deep and endure physical pain is the same thing as mental fortitude. They're 2 entirely different things.

Take Ullrich and Armstrong for example, I highly doubt that during a race their ability to endure pain was any different. But one was a prime example of mental fortitude, the other not so much.

Is this opinion based on the fact that Armstrong consistently defeated Ullrich? Armstrong had a team totally devoted to his success. T-Mobile had so many other balls in the air with Zabel going for the green jersey and Vino on his radical attacks, that alone put Ullrich at a disadvantage to Armstrong and his team's single minded approach to the Tour. I never saw Ullrich as lacking "mental fortitude". He like many others before him were simply over matched and defeated by a superior foe.

Using your logic, would that mean that all that finished lower in the gc standings in the Tour year after year were weaker mentally than Ullrich? How would you even be able to make such a determination?

 

[portugal11]

Re: Re:

I really, really disagree that being able to go deep and endure physical pain is the same thing as mental fortitude. They're 2 entirely different things.

You are entitled to your opinion but being able to go deep is a mental thing as all pain is in the brain and to be able to endure pain is a very strong mental requirement of fortitude

However it was not my point...the riders I pointed to are able to continue when it would be easier to give up ...to beleive in themsleve when against the odds

What else is mental fortitude

Armstrong as an example is wrong ...he was a bully full of EPO ...see very little fortitude in this.... in fact his need for control and willingness to cheat shows lack of mental fortitude ...As I said mental fortitude is not about wininng as the bias on here would suggest, In fact Simeoni had more mental fortitude than Armstrong . he stood against everyone else whne it would ahve been easier to fall in line and when he could have kept his job. That is mental fortitude

Froome has come out of his shell some what in 2016 but he only has done so by being surrounded by the strongest team and attacking from 2km previously and realising his comparative abilty ...hardly the great test of mental fortitue. But I do think he has fortitude mostly from his application to be Kenya's olympic representative.

As I said people are mixing up mental strength with the abilty to win ..
Mental strnegth is the ability to overcome even/especially when the odds are against you

The Badger had it in droves , Stephen Roche at the 1987 Giro, Contador in 2009 ...Cadel Evans for most of his career ...these are all winners but there are others who didnt win like these and have it also as they rode and believed in themselves and hung in there without that ability and achieved results

Cadel evans never had a strong mentality, he lost a lot of gt's because of this

I have never disagreed with a post on this forum more than this one. Cadel was easily the 10th+ best climber in an grand tour he rode in and maybe at absolute peak form sat in 5-8th best, yet his mental fortitude was the reason why he was always 2nd to 4th best, Plenty of better climbers cracked way way way ahead of of a man who was not a natural climber yet somehow became always in the 2nd or 3rd best climber FACT. It may feel like he crac ked against Contadors attacks but only Froome (maybe Quintana now but im talking about Cadels er)a has proven to be better and Cadel in 2011 and other occasional rides ( fleche wallone) to outclimb him.

you are underestimating cadel's climbing ability, he is good in constant and long mountains with gradients around 6-9%. when he faced explosive but long climbs with more than 12% like zoncolan, he cracked big time. evans was good in all terrains, and he was capable of gaining time in small climbs, pave, downhill,TT,... that's the reason why evans was always fighting for a podium place or even a victory in a gt.

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

Is this opinion based on the fact that Armstrong consistently defeated Ullrich?

No it is not, so this part is irrelevant:

Armstrong had a team totally devoted to his success. T-Mobile had so many other balls in the air with Zabel going for the green jersey and Vino on his radical attacks, that alone put Ullrich at a disadvantage to Armstrong and his team's single minded approach to the Tour.

I never saw Ullrich as lacking "mental fortitude". He like many others before him were simply over matched and defeated by a superior foe.

He lacked discipline, he wasn't prepared to devote himself to his goal the way Armstrong did. He didn't handle the pressure and attention well that came with his success, while Armstrong relished it. He lacked cleverness and tactical skills.

Using your logic

It's not my logic, it was your logic and you attributed it to me.

So i think its fair to say that we can scratch this part as well

, would that mean that all that finished lower in the gc standings in the Tour year after year were weaker mentally than Ullrich? How would you even be able to make such a determination?

He was a supremely skilled cyclist, in terms of potential maybe one of the greatest in the sports history. I saw him riding in Cologne in 1999 and it was ridiculous, he was so clearly overweight and yet he rode casually in the Peloton on one of the steepest sectors, looking like he was breathing through his nose while the riders around him were labouring out of their saddles, breathing hard. A sight to behold.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

I really, really disagree that being able to go deep and endure physical pain is the same thing as mental fortitude. They're 2 entirely different things.

Take Ullrich and Armstrong for example, I highly doubt that during a race their ability to endure pain was any different. But one was a prime example of mental fortitude, the other not so much.

Exactly. I don't think that enduring pain when you're in great form makes that much of a difference, and there's only so deep you can go before blowing up and screwing your recovery.

 

[Tonton]

One just happened to be the better of the two..."mental fortitude" had nothing to do with this IMO. Yes, I'mthe toughest guy when riding with my 11 year-old: I can break him if I want. But I wonder: who's the toughest? The better guy, or the lesser rider hanging in there, refusing to stop until he drops? There're obviously two (or more) different ways to define "mental strength" here. We're not going anywhere.

Back to the topic, IMO Thibaut Pinot possesses as much mental strength as anyone. When showing up confident and well-prepared, he can challenge the bests, i.e. '16 Romandie. He can be a very good descender. He can do anything. His limitations vs. a Froome for example is not in his head. It's physical/horsepower, team...

 

[HelloDolly]

Foe a definition of mental fortitude watch the film True Grit ....Every one thiks the Marshal has it and the Texas Ranger fights for it and the lead Out Law sems to have it but in hte end its the little gilr who has it above them all

 

[Alexandre B.]

http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme-sur-route/Actualites/Thibaut-pinot-ira-au-tour-d-italie/758776
All done according to his plan.

 

[yaco]

The Giro could be the making of Pinot as a GC rider - The profile with the longer TT's and longer mountain passes suit his characteristics.

 

[sir fly]

Giro will certainly be better with Pinot. And the Tour's perfect for stage hunting, but the way it's usually raced often limits the number of options. I suppose his Giro result should reflect on the Tour.
And I guess this could mean Bardet could have an useful ally in Pinot, instead of a rival. It's not like it mattered in the past, but new roles and a new climate amongst French supporters can be expected.

 

[yaco]

Re:

Giro will certainly be better with Pinot. And the Tour's perfect for stage hunting, but the way it's usually raced often limits the number of options. I suppose his Giro result should reflect on the Tour.
And I guess this could mean Bardet could have an useful ally in Pinot, instead of a rival. It's not like it mattered in the past, but new roles and a new climate amongst French supporters can be expected.

You can never expect two rival French riders to work together.

 

[sir fly]

Re: Re:

Giro will certainly be better with Pinot. And the Tour's perfect for stage hunting, but the way it's usually raced often limits the number of options. I suppose his Giro result should reflect on the Tour.
And I guess this could mean Bardet could have an useful ally in Pinot, instead of a rival. It's not like it mattered in the past, but new roles and a new climate amongst French supporters can be expected.

You can never expect two rival French riders to work together.

Not necessarily to work, more like to find a common interest on occasion.
Different overall ambitions make it more likely.

 

[Simurgh]

Calling it now: He's gonna podium in Italy!

 

[Tonton]

Re:

Calling it now: He's gonna podium in Italy!

You beat me to it .

I'll take this as a Christmas present. And I can't help but think that it was the plan all along. Tibopino must have insisted on this before extending with FDJ. And with Bardet so competitive, racing the Tour for stages and/or KOM is something that the French public will accept without fussing.

Now if he wins the Giro, and I think that he can, the circus will resume, times ten.

 

[portugal11]

Re: Re:

Calling it now: He's gonna podium in Italy!

You beat me to it .

I'll take this as a Christmas present. And I can't help but think that it was the plan all along. Tibopino must have insisted on this before extending with FDJ. And with Bardet so competitive, racing the Tour for stages and/or KOM is something that the French public will accept without fussing.

Now if he wins the Giro, and I think that he can, the circus will resume, times ten.

This hype around pinot is getting worse than the hype around contador. Do you really think that he could win il giro? In my opinion he has zero chances of making top3

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

Calling it now: He's gonna podium in Italy!

You beat me to it .

I'll take this as a Christmas present. And I can't help but think that it was the plan all along. Tibopino must have insisted on this before extending with FDJ. And with Bardet so competitive, racing the Tour for stages and/or KOM is something that the French public will accept without fussing.

Now if he wins the Giro, and I think that he can, the circus will resume, times ten.

This hype around pinot is getting worse than the hype around contador. Do you really think that he could win il giro? In my opinion he has zero chances of making top3

Zero chance? He made top 3 at the Tour de France, but it's impossible for him to podium the Giro? I don't see the logic behind that statement, as all the top riders have at least some chance, however small or large.

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

Calling it now: He's gonna podium in Italy!

You beat me to it .

I'll take this as a Christmas present. And I can't help but think that it was the plan all along. Tibopino must have insisted on this before extending with FDJ. And with Bardet so competitive, racing the Tour for stages and/or KOM is something that the French public will accept without fussing.

Now if he wins the Giro, and I think that he can, the circus will resume, times ten.

This hype around pinot is getting worse than the hype around contador. Do you really think that he could win il giro? In my opinion he has zero chances of making top3

He's had some bad luck in the Tour the past two years (not so good form, and mechanicals). Perhaps that's all your focused on. He has most definitely shown that he is capable of podiuming the Giro. He will have to come with great form and consistency. The Giro is gonna be awesome this year.

 

[SafeBet]

Best news in a while. Can't wait for May!

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

He has most definitely shown that he is capable of podiuming the Giro. He will have to come with great form and consistency. The Giro is gonna be awesome this year.

For the great form and consistency, his '16 blueprint is pretty good. His form improved from Algarve, to TA, to Romandie, (races with world-class opposition); he could have "podiumed" last Giro...easy.

Yes, when it's all said and done, I may (and hope I will) give this Giro more than my usual 8. The Italian feud will dominate the media, with all the drama, and I could see a non-Italian win it. Dumoulin still is a little weak and some mountain stages will be too much for him. No Froome, no Quintana; it will help. Bertie? The door is closing on his chances for another TdF, he won't race the Giro.

And by the way, portugal11, the hype around Contador is completely understandable. Multiple GT winner, dominated the post-Lance '05 era, and a great attacking style. Up a climb, I play Phil and Paul in my head, and it's always Contador or Pinot...and a little Pantani and Virenque, actually .

Pinot has a tatoo, that reads "solo la vittoria e bella". I like his chances.

 

[Alexandre B.]

His race program according to Le Monde:

Grand Prix Cycliste la Marseillaise (29/01)
Volta a la Comunitat Valenciana (01/02 - 05/02)
Volta ao Algarve em Bicicleta (15/02 - 19/02)
Strade Bianche (04/03)
Tirreno-Adriatico (08/03 - 14/03)
Tour of the Alps (17/04 - 21/04)
Giro d'Italia (06/05 - 28/05)

 

[Tonton]

From the horse's mouth, interview on the FDJ website published today:

Comme chaque année, je vais reprendre dans La Marseillaise puis enchaîner le Tour de la Communauté de Valence et le Tour Algarve en février. En mars, Tirreno-Adriatico sera un objectif puis je vais activer ma préparation au Giro, partir en stage et disputer le Tour du Trentin, qui me tente depuis longtemps, avant le Giro.

Strada Bianche? That would be awesome!

 

[yaco]

Interesting the very next day AG2R announce Bardet's calendar 2017. French rivalry at work !

 

[SafeBet]

Strade Bianche looks rather odd on his calendar but we'll see. What's his experience on sterrato?