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Re:
He time trialed EXACTLY how realists, like me, who don't over hype a riders capacity, expected him to.
Did he time trial as his fanboys have persuaded others in this thread over the past 3 years?
No. But he was roughly where he should have been...right around Quintana.
Neither of whom are 'bad' time trialists, despite what the masses who can't read a stage to save themselves think.
He won the sprint I thought he would. Raced really well. Corrected his massive faults that were exposed in 2016...he has grown a lot and has a lot to celebrate.
But let's not get ahead of ourselves here. He is top 5 GT material. A lot needs to happen for him to make the podium though. A lot.
I still think Bardet is more aggressive and relentless as a GC rider.
Time trialed as people expected and maybe he'd have won...sheesh. That's just ridiculous. That's called being a fanboy. He is not Froome, nor is he Kirienka. He'd have had to time trial at the level Kirienka did and ride GC just to have won. That's not going to happen. He's solid, but he's not that darn good.
Great ride from him. He did REALLY WELL.
Valv.Piti said:
He time trialed EXACTLY how realists, like me, who don't over hype a riders capacity, expected him to.
Did he time trial as his fanboys have persuaded others in this thread over the past 3 years?
No. But he was roughly where he should have been...right around Quintana.
Neither of whom are 'bad' time trialists, despite what the masses who can't read a stage to save themselves think.
He won the sprint I thought he would. Raced really well. Corrected his massive faults that were exposed in 2016...he has grown a lot and has a lot to celebrate.
But let's not get ahead of ourselves here. He is top 5 GT material. A lot needs to happen for him to make the podium though. A lot.
I still think Bardet is more aggressive and relentless as a GC rider.
Time trialed as people expected and maybe he'd have won...sheesh. That's just ridiculous. That's called being a fanboy. He is not Froome, nor is he Kirienka. He'd have had to time trial at the level Kirienka did and ride GC just to have won. That's not going to happen. He's solid, but he's not that darn good.
Great ride from him. He did REALLY WELL.
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Tonton said:TIBOPINO - GIRO 2017 RECAP
Thibaut himself stated his objectives: a podium and a stage. If he fell short of his first goal with a 4th place finish, Tibopino's time difference to the GC winner (1'17") is the smallest achieved by a French rider since Jalabert won the '95 Vuelta. Pinot did win a stage; and he did it with panache, defending, attacking, and ultimately dominating the opposition.
For pundits and casual fans, there were question-marks leading up to the Giro: despite big successes in one-week races, a podium in Lombardy, a brilliant ride at La Strade Bianche, was the '14 TdF a fluke? His podium (beating Valverde, TJVG, and Bardet) was overshadowed, in the minds of many, by the abandons of Froome, Quintana, and Contador. Was he a true GT contender? Could he be competitive for three weeks? Would he fold when the going gets tough? How about his descending skills?
The Good: Thibaut showed great fighting spirit, overcame adversity by limiting his losses when he had bad days, he refused to go away. Tibopino never gave up the fight. Overall he showed consistency over three weeks. He was very smart, timing perfectly his attacks. Add to this wonderful climbing and excellent sprinting.
The Bad: Pinot has not performed well against the clock. That's why he didn't get the podium. As Valv.Piti put it, the disaster on stage 16 enabled Thibaut to get some rope and he took advantage of it, regaining a minute on stage 18. But that was an obvious disappointment.
The Ugly: rest day management. At the Montefalco ITT, Reichenbach and Ludvigsson finished 94th and 98th. Tibopino lost 2'42" to Dumourain. On the Stelvio stage, only Pinot and Seb were within 30 minutes of the stage winner. That's a big time team failure.
As a conclusion, for me who began the Thibaut Pinot thread, fanboy and proud of it, it was a validation: what I knew all along, following Tibopino for years. I knew he had it in him, and he can do even better. It wasn't the greatest Pinot. But I won't bother with "what ifs". I'm very happy. A lot of knowledgeable members on this forum have given Il Grandissimo his props, including portugal11, and that's no small feat. Hats of to you portugal11: you're good sport.
This is only the beginning folks, Il Cappo di Tutti Coppi (like Fausto) hasn't even turned 27. Watch out.
More Rioja wine tonight. A reserva from Remirez de Ganuza...life is beautiful
I must have missed the "DOMINATION" part.
This is why you're a fanboy. When Thibaut Pinot actually DOES dominate, we should all be very afraid.
Haven't seen it yet though...
I won't hold my breath. He's a good rider though. Your vocabulary selection of appropriate verbs needs revamping. No, that's not a blood doping joke or a pun on Verbier on my behalf.
Dominate...thanks for the laughs!
PS: when talking your boy up, please don't state that beating Tejay van Garderen is a big deal. It's not. Tejay rarely fires on all cylinders. Beating him is to be assumed. Naturally, your boy couldn't fire last year either...I know, I know. But he did eventually re-fire. Good for him, just don't insult him with branding him next to Tejay. So include Valverde and Bardet but OMIT TJVG.
Excellent sprinting?
I mean, I called it kilometres before the line dude. It was an obvious conclusion Thibaut was going to win the stage. Was it 'excellent?'
He just held off Zakarin and has more dense muscle mass than all the other riders there...he was naturally the rider to assume would win. NOTE:
In the Dauphine during 2016, he sucked Bardet's wheel to the line and did no work to ensure he'd have more lactate power to win the sprint. Smart sprinting...not excellent. Excellent is when he does the work and still thumps everyone else for a stage win. I knew then, come the Tour, who to expect to be up there...Bardet. Of coruse this thread at the time was claiming the opposite. Pinot actually had some obvious faults on the road that were apparent in the Dauphine last year (he didn't go on after their breakaway stage and keep up with the GC boys, Bardet however DID)...what is EXCELLENT is that he's remedied them and used his ability and wits to win a stage and finish 4th.
That's clever riding. That shows he is learning. TJVG on the other hand, has not learned much since 2014. Pinot has...just a free tip, don't compare a rider you really like to someone who is criticized heavily for under performing...it looks bad.
Performing excellently in a sprint would be Sagan...or Valverde in a classic. They either win or come second. Every time. Good sprinting by him, but he simply did what he's done before, hence I thought he'd replicate it. I guessed correctly! I thought this stuff was REALLY obvious during the stage. Go check the race thread...I called it. I even said, wait Pinot, wait and then go.
So good sprinting, but it's not EXCELLENT. It's playing your cards at the right time. I'll agree that was very good timing on his part, both climbing and sprinting. He used his rivals hesitation without faulting. Now that's what is great about Pinot during this Giro. But he needs a little bit more to be a consistent podium finisher in GT's.
His true level at ITT is about Nibali's one. If he had done the same TT than Nibali, I wouldn't say anything, but here he failed.
Last year he won 3 TTs, whose one in WT and the NC, about 1 min above every others riders. This year he made two good TTs in Ruta del Sol and Tirreno. Yesterday, for the first time since 2014, he finished a TT without being in the top 20.
So I think it's quite evident he didn't perform at his best, I don't know what the reason is, maybe he lost a bit of level in the TTs to be better in the mountains... But it's pretty sure he is able to do better.
Last year he won 3 TTs, whose one in WT and the NC, about 1 min above every others riders. This year he made two good TTs in Ruta del Sol and Tirreno. Yesterday, for the first time since 2014, he finished a TT without being in the top 20.
So I think it's quite evident he didn't perform at his best, I don't know what the reason is, maybe he lost a bit of level in the TTs to be better in the mountains... But it's pretty sure he is able to do better.
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Re:
Think about this for perspective then.
I went through the first time trial and looked at times. Then went back to the 2014 Tour for confirmation.
He has NEVER time trialed at the same level of Nibali in a grand tour. Nibali is always reasonably ahead of him. Nibali can top 10 in a time trial whilst riding GT, in both the first and second time trials. When has Pinot done this?
Ignoring riders like Wiggins, Froome and now Dumoulin, that's a HUGE trump card. You can beat others in the climbs and get anywhere up to a minute, perhaps a bit more, on them in the time trial.
Pinot has always been, roughly around the other GC riders. That's perfectly fine. It's very good. It's not outstanding though.
So after his stage win, I had a bit of a historical comparison.
My thinking, was that should Nibali have been where Nairo was on GC relative to Tom Dumoulin, THEN we'd have had a very close GC race on our hands, barring Dumoulin not making a mistake or mechanical.
Tom, actually was really good, but believable. He looked fatigued and relative to others had dropped from the first ride. Nairo improved BTW. By a lot. His gap to Nibali was on par with the distance and gap they had in the first time trial. The difference is, had Nairo finished with Nibali's time into Milan, he'd have lost the Maglia Rosa for a second.
So my assumptions, based on the first time trial and historical norms they all exhibit were fairly accurate. The issue was how much fatigue Tom Dumoulin took in. He showed he does drop...that's a good thing! Makes his performance look more credible IMO.
But Pinot...this thread dozens of pages and years back started claiming Pinot had improved as a time trialist.
When? A stage race last year where he finished second overall? That's great. Porte's won time trials in stage races and won the outright convincingly. Yet in grand tour's I am not claiming he will put in a killer time trial and deliver. Why? Because I've never seen him actually do it.
Even better...time checks at the tour last year showed he was third, on par with Froome. By the end, he'd dropped over 90 seconds! He was right near Quintana. That's historic comparison. You compare riders at the same relative fatigue levels in specific races that show that accumulated level of fatigue.
Yes Pinot has some good chrono's in shorter races. So does Nairo. But at the end of a GT, he's around all the other GT boys. He did what I expected him to. 9 seconds faster first time trial and 4 seconds slower second time trial to Nairo...which leaves both riders as good against the clock, but they need to be a bit better, around Nibali's level, if not higher to really be dangerous and truly complementary to their climbing pedigree and attacking nature.
That type of racing would have really scared Dumoulin...and he was scared. You could see it in his reactions. He did over power them all though...eventually. And it made a great race.
And no...I don't think Nairo or Pinot will just up and improve their time trialing like that. Porte is a different kettle of fish. He use to be a really good time trialist and he weighs the same as Quintana or a few kg more. WATCH him this Tour and see if he really has regained his old capacity...because if he has, he could foresee to win the Tour.
NOTE: Surely I am not the ONLY person who thought before the Milan stage that if Nibali had the time gap to Dumoulin that Quintana possessed and was wearing the maglis rosa, that he'd have been able to possibly hold onto it? His time on the stage shows he would have been VERY close. He was 54 seconds slower than Tom who started 53 seconds behind Quintana.
My bad...this forum had folk claiming Nibali AND Quintana were going to lose their podium places. Irrational emotion versus common sense is prevailing around here. That's normal though!
Pinot FWIW did not fail. Not at all. He performed admirably. You've under talked his capacity whilst Tonton, who is a nice fellow and a big fan of Pinot, has slightly over talked his accolades. The truth is found in the middle. That French man and his team have a lot to cheer for. A stage win and 4th is a huge achievement. For crying out loud, the Criterium International PLUS French national champion doesn't mean he can time trial at the end of 3 weeks in a grand tour.
Michael Rogers was a 3x WORLD CHAMPION before the BioPassport. He never won a time trial in a grand tour or performed to an excetpional level. This is like the Aussies (I am Australia BTW) who big note Aussie time trialers. Yes many are good...but keep it in perspective. Pinot is not Sylvain Chavanel. The comparison with Porte is apt. Until EITHER actually gets the first and second time splits warranting a top end GT time trial, it's all just talk dude.
Wait and see them do it. Don't expect it to just magically appear. That's fanboy hype. The CI is 3 stages bro. 3 stages. Keep it real please!
I threw this in for comparison: 2016 Tour de Romandie. ITT he was 2 seconds faster than Dumoulin, and 9 ahead of BOTH Froome and Quintana.
Good performance but note, his form took a major nose dive after this race. That's still, not beating Froome or Dumoulin at the Tour in the ITT. It's also only 15km...
Again, perspective please. You can't compare apples and oranges. The stages and parours are exactly that. Look at the riders in the specific races with their accumulated race loads and relative fatigue to each other in THAT race. Pinot has never actually under perfomed in a single time trial during a GT!
People have simply mistaken one or two shorter performances in races where his GT rivals were not in stellar huge form and assumed, he's near them here, thus he will be in the Tour. Based on the 2016 Romandie ITT we could all expect Nairo Quintana to time trial like Chris Froome come the Tour, can we not?
Not a chance. Such assumption is ignorant and fanboy behaviour. Not one Quintana fan did so. So why are Pinot's fans demanding so much?
It's called being delusional.
He's ridden really darn well. Heck, if people treated it this way, they'd avoid getting upset when he doesn't perform!!
manolo57 said:
Think about this for perspective then.
I went through the first time trial and looked at times. Then went back to the 2014 Tour for confirmation.
He has NEVER time trialed at the same level of Nibali in a grand tour. Nibali is always reasonably ahead of him. Nibali can top 10 in a time trial whilst riding GT, in both the first and second time trials. When has Pinot done this?
Ignoring riders like Wiggins, Froome and now Dumoulin, that's a HUGE trump card. You can beat others in the climbs and get anywhere up to a minute, perhaps a bit more, on them in the time trial.
Pinot has always been, roughly around the other GC riders. That's perfectly fine. It's very good. It's not outstanding though.
So after his stage win, I had a bit of a historical comparison.
My thinking, was that should Nibali have been where Nairo was on GC relative to Tom Dumoulin, THEN we'd have had a very close GC race on our hands, barring Dumoulin not making a mistake or mechanical.
Tom, actually was really good, but believable. He looked fatigued and relative to others had dropped from the first ride. Nairo improved BTW. By a lot. His gap to Nibali was on par with the distance and gap they had in the first time trial. The difference is, had Nairo finished with Nibali's time into Milan, he'd have lost the Maglia Rosa for a second.
So my assumptions, based on the first time trial and historical norms they all exhibit were fairly accurate. The issue was how much fatigue Tom Dumoulin took in. He showed he does drop...that's a good thing! Makes his performance look more credible IMO.
But Pinot...this thread dozens of pages and years back started claiming Pinot had improved as a time trialist.
When? A stage race last year where he finished second overall? That's great. Porte's won time trials in stage races and won the outright convincingly. Yet in grand tour's I am not claiming he will put in a killer time trial and deliver. Why? Because I've never seen him actually do it.
Even better...time checks at the tour last year showed he was third, on par with Froome. By the end, he'd dropped over 90 seconds! He was right near Quintana. That's historic comparison. You compare riders at the same relative fatigue levels in specific races that show that accumulated level of fatigue.
Yes Pinot has some good chrono's in shorter races. So does Nairo. But at the end of a GT, he's around all the other GT boys. He did what I expected him to. 9 seconds faster first time trial and 4 seconds slower second time trial to Nairo...which leaves both riders as good against the clock, but they need to be a bit better, around Nibali's level, if not higher to really be dangerous and truly complementary to their climbing pedigree and attacking nature.
That type of racing would have really scared Dumoulin...and he was scared. You could see it in his reactions. He did over power them all though...eventually. And it made a great race.
And no...I don't think Nairo or Pinot will just up and improve their time trialing like that. Porte is a different kettle of fish. He use to be a really good time trialist and he weighs the same as Quintana or a few kg more. WATCH him this Tour and see if he really has regained his old capacity...because if he has, he could foresee to win the Tour.
NOTE: Surely I am not the ONLY person who thought before the Milan stage that if Nibali had the time gap to Dumoulin that Quintana possessed and was wearing the maglis rosa, that he'd have been able to possibly hold onto it? His time on the stage shows he would have been VERY close. He was 54 seconds slower than Tom who started 53 seconds behind Quintana.
My bad...this forum had folk claiming Nibali AND Quintana were going to lose their podium places. Irrational emotion versus common sense is prevailing around here. That's normal though!
Pinot FWIW did not fail. Not at all. He performed admirably. You've under talked his capacity whilst Tonton, who is a nice fellow and a big fan of Pinot, has slightly over talked his accolades. The truth is found in the middle. That French man and his team have a lot to cheer for. A stage win and 4th is a huge achievement. For crying out loud, the Criterium International PLUS French national champion doesn't mean he can time trial at the end of 3 weeks in a grand tour.
Michael Rogers was a 3x WORLD CHAMPION before the BioPassport. He never won a time trial in a grand tour or performed to an excetpional level. This is like the Aussies (I am Australia BTW) who big note Aussie time trialers. Yes many are good...but keep it in perspective. Pinot is not Sylvain Chavanel. The comparison with Porte is apt. Until EITHER actually gets the first and second time splits warranting a top end GT time trial, it's all just talk dude.
Wait and see them do it. Don't expect it to just magically appear. That's fanboy hype. The CI is 3 stages bro. 3 stages. Keep it real please!
I threw this in for comparison: 2016 Tour de Romandie. ITT he was 2 seconds faster than Dumoulin, and 9 ahead of BOTH Froome and Quintana.
Good performance but note, his form took a major nose dive after this race. That's still, not beating Froome or Dumoulin at the Tour in the ITT. It's also only 15km...
Again, perspective please. You can't compare apples and oranges. The stages and parours are exactly that. Look at the riders in the specific races with their accumulated race loads and relative fatigue to each other in THAT race. Pinot has never actually under perfomed in a single time trial during a GT!
People have simply mistaken one or two shorter performances in races where his GT rivals were not in stellar huge form and assumed, he's near them here, thus he will be in the Tour. Based on the 2016 Romandie ITT we could all expect Nairo Quintana to time trial like Chris Froome come the Tour, can we not?
Not a chance. Such assumption is ignorant and fanboy behaviour. Not one Quintana fan did so. So why are Pinot's fans demanding so much?
It's called being delusional.
He's ridden really darn well. Heck, if people treated it this way, they'd avoid getting upset when he doesn't perform!!
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Galic Ho, the domination part began stage 20 when he bridged Quintana and Nibali. After that, he was the boss. Driving to the last km, Pinot did the most work. Him winning was a foregone conclusion, yes, not because of his muscle mass: Tibopinoe was the strongest on the day.
Please don't rewrite history about the '16 Dauphine. It's Bardet who attacked him while Thibaut was taking a turn. Pinot was willing to work with Bardet. In the end Bardet got nothing, due to his greed or his stupidity. Thank you very much .
I absolutely do not pretend to be completely objective. By the was read my posts in the final ITT threads, I broke it down. I didn't expect to see him on the podium. Fact. But yes, with Tibopino so close, many can't help to want a little more. You want the cherry and the icing. But as I also stated: as it is, it's a big cake, a great cake, and it is sweet.
Trust me, I'm not done being the herald for Il Grandissimo. And I will use all the verbs that I want to, all the verbs that I know. I will on occasions get carried away . I have fun participating in the forums. Again, I don't pretend to be completely objective. He's my homie, and I'm proud of him. I cheer for Thibaut. And I'm not a fair weather fan...
Too bad that the '16 Dauphine "alternative reality" takes away much of your credibility. Sorry. You make some very good points though...
Please don't rewrite history about the '16 Dauphine. It's Bardet who attacked him while Thibaut was taking a turn. Pinot was willing to work with Bardet. In the end Bardet got nothing, due to his greed or his stupidity. Thank you very much
.I absolutely do not pretend to be completely objective. By the was read my posts in the final ITT threads, I broke it down. I didn't expect to see him on the podium. Fact. But yes, with Tibopino so close, many can't help to want a little more. You want the cherry and the icing. But as I also stated: as it is, it's a big cake, a great cake, and it is sweet.
Trust me, I'm not done being the herald for Il Grandissimo. And I will use all the verbs that I want to, all the verbs that I know. I will on occasions get carried away
. I have fun participating in the forums. Again, I don't pretend to be completely objective. He's my homie, and I'm proud of him. I cheer for Thibaut. And I'm not a fair weather fan...Too bad that the '16 Dauphine "alternative reality" takes away much of your credibility. Sorry. You make some very good points though...
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While I don't agree with the full extent of Galic Ho's post, I do agree that Pinot's time trial abilities has been rather hyped for a long time. Yes, he perfomed below his best against the clock, but I don't think he was ever going to beat Nibali in a GT time trial, anyway, like a lot of people had predicted. He also got a free minute on the top 3 in the stage to Ortisei and still he didn't manage a podium. To me, his best day in this Giro came on Blockhaus.
In any case, much like Valverde's Giro last year, I think he can take comfort in a stage win and a good performance. He was never really close to winning it.
In any case, much like Valverde's Giro last year, I think he can take comfort in a stage win and a good performance. He was never really close to winning it.
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Tonton said:Galic Ho, the domination part began stage 20 when he bridged Quintana and Nibali. After that, he was the boss. Driving to the last km, Pinot did the most work. Him winning was a foregone conclusion, yes, not because of his muscle mass: Tibopinoe was the strongest on the day.
Please don't rewrite history about the '16 Dauphine. It's Bardet who attacked him while Thibaut was taking a turn. Pinot was willing to work with Bardet. In the end Bardet got nothing, due to his greed or his stupidity. Thank you very much
I absolutely do not pretend to be completely objective. By the was read my posts in the final ITT threads, I broke it down. I didn't expect to see him on the podium. Fact. But yes, with Tibopino so close, many can't help to want a little more. You want the cherry and the icing. But as I also stated: as it is, it's a big cake, a great cake, and it is sweet.
Trust me, I'm not done being the herald for Il Grandissimo. And I will use all the verbs that I want to, all the verbs that I know. I will on occasions get carried away
Too bad that the '16 Dauphine "alternative reality" takes away much of your credibility. Sorry. You make some very good points though...
Spoken like a true fanboy who has gone a bit too far. I provided the video for reference. Ain't nothing wrong with tactically letting a rival lead you out. It worked didn't it?
Example...Gerrans has made a career out of getting those types of wins. Some dislike it...some. But he works his strengths. That's clever racing BTW.
It's this level of behaviour that ignores and refuses to accept a rider bonking on stage 5 of the Tour de France and not accepting that it happens, it does suck, but it can also be rectified. It's that type of support that has a certain BMC rider choking big time...over hyping someone rather than dealing with them rationally.
The Aussie version is Caleb Ewan. Wins stages in the Tour Down Under and suddenly he is a sprinting super star!
How did his Giro go against Quickstep and Gavira? The dust settled and we're brought back to reality. But this did not stop many, and I mean almost every second Aussie journalist on our cycling tv station over hyping the poor kid.
I am strongly against pressuring riders with unrealistic expectations BTW, irrespective of who they are. Don't hate the rider...I dislike the over hyped fantasy many fall victim to. They do read social media and get a skewed perspective of what they can really do because of it.
You saw Bardet not working. I saw Bardet doing the same amount of work and then Pinot choosing to not share the last few turns. So why did Pinot sit on his wheel, for the entire last kilometre, claim the stage win and THEN fail to have the stamina to go with Porte, Contador, Froome, Dan Martin AND Bardet the next day?
Because he lacked stamina. So why would I expect him to have it in the Tour?
I didn't. Note, Aru was even worse in that Dauphine. He actually got slightly better but still struggled.
It's not bashing Pinot, but when he did actually pop in the Tour, I was not shocked. I'd seen prior evidence he'd been at his peak earlier in the season. He peaked early and probably got sick...it happens dude.
Note, I'm not French and not a huge fan of Bardet or Pinot. Odds are I'll ignore the bias a Frenchman probably won't ignore. Check the stage for yourself. Both are in front at times...this is why I said you're a fanboy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygIqGE7dv1s
Fanboys ignore the faults of their favourite riders. Of course, you could prove this by stating what your opinion is of Bardet! Perhaps you dislike him. But, it's just another reminder, that when I suspect a rider is struggling and doesn't look as good as others say and he does falter, like I presumed he would...well, my instincts are more accurate with cycling. This prevents me from getting upset. Along with the fact I just like racing. Froome wins...yay. Sagan wins. Yay. Porte wins...Yay. It doesn't bother me. Nibali wins yay. Nibali holds onto a car and gets evicted from the race...LOL and lots of laughs. But I don't hate him for doing it. Or get angry over it.
The last time I was annoyed in a race was...Quintana last years Tour. But if Valverde rides for him, then that's enough in my book.
Here you go. My memory was spot on...yours? From 26 mins onward please have a long hard look, please drop the fanboy fantasy and look really hard. Pinot is paced by Bardet. That gives him the ADVANTAGE. You're a mod and some what of a seasoned cycling fan. I expect people with that prominence on here to KNOW by now, what the difference is. That's playing the tactical card strongly, but is also slightly lazy. If you don't like that, too bad. He did it. They also shared the previous load about 50/50...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygIqGE7dv1s
But then again, I didn't get upset last Tour with Pinot's performance. This stage here is exactly WHY I claimed in the stage 19 thread Pinot should sit back, recuperate a bit, and get a stage win, rather than miss out on it and finish a likely 4th. Go for what you can get.
There is nothing wrong with that either. Unless one has over invested themselves emotionally in a riders performances and has to exaggerate their performance.
PS: I do like how he rides. If he attacked a bit more like Bardet was last year, I thought it would benefit him well. Did he? Isn't that exactly what he did in this Giro? I wonder where the idea came to him...nah, he'd never find inspiration from Bardet now would he?
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Re: Re:
Too many p's in there: il capo di tutti i capi sounds better.Tonton said:Mafia Godfather: cappo di tutti cappi...SafeBet said:Now that the Giro is over I've got one question for you Tonton: what should "Il cappo di tutti Coppi" mean? Because it surely doesn't mean a thing in italian
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I have watched that Dauphine stage many times. Pinot was working with Bardet until Bardet attacked him. Fact. Go back to the threads in this forum: I'm not the only one who saw it. Listen to what the announcers said, i.e. Jalabert. A guy who knows a thing or two about cycling...
I'm a fanboy, yes. Do I get carried away? Yes. Many pull one way, I pull the other way. Go back a few pages on this thread: one bad day, and many write Thibaut off. At this level, if you're not 100%, and you can't be 100% all the time (unless you're Valverde), you have bad days.
I don't dislike Bardet. I prefer Pinot, but I won't bash Bardet (or any other rider) to make Pinot look better. I don't think that Tibopino is attacking more because he secretly wants to be Romain...c'mon man . When you're not very explosive, unless you are very strong, attacking isn't that easy at this level. He's a diesel. Correction: a turbo diesel .
I'm a fanboy, yes. Do I get carried away? Yes. Many pull one way, I pull the other way. Go back a few pages on this thread: one bad day, and many write Thibaut off. At this level, if you're not 100%, and you can't be 100% all the time (unless you're Valverde), you have bad days.
I don't dislike Bardet. I prefer Pinot, but I won't bash Bardet (or any other rider) to make Pinot look better. I don't think that Tibopino is attacking more because he secretly wants to be Romain...c'mon man
. When you're not very explosive, unless you are very strong, attacking isn't that easy at this level. He's a diesel. Correction: a turbo diesel .
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Re: Re:
I stand corrected then. Thank you!SafeBet said:Too many p's in there: il capo di tutti i capi sounds better.Tonton said:Mafia Godfather: cappo di tutti cappi...SafeBet said:Now that the Giro is over I've got one question for you Tonton: what should "Il cappo di tutti Coppi" mean? Because it surely doesn't mean a thing in italian
- Aug 12, 2009
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Tonton said:I have watched that Dauphine stage many times. Pinot was working with Bardet until Bardet attacked him. Fact. Go back to the threads in this forum: I'm not the only one who saw it. Listen to what the announcers said, i.e. Jalabert. A guy who knows a thing or two about cycling...
I'm a fanboy, yes. Do I get carried away? Yes. Many pull one way, I pull the other way. Go back a few pages on this thread: one bad day, and many write Thibaut off. At this level, if you're not 100%, and you can't be 100% all the time (unless you're Valverde), you have bad days.
I don't dislike Bardet. I prefer Pinot, but I won't bash Bardet (or any other rider) to make Pinot look better. I don't think that Tibopino is attacking more because he secretly wants to be Romain...c'mon man
Jaja has some very, very funny opinions on cyclists these days.
I take half of what he says with a grain of salt.
As for writing Pinot off, I am not saying I did.
I expected him to finish 4th and Zakarin to finish 5th. For them, IMO, that's a great achievement PLUS both win a stage.
The favourable comparison, would be the breakaway in last years Tour where Orica had 3 riders in a group containing 7 riders.
Peter Sagan and Greg van Avermaet were in that group. Orica allowed Peter Sagan to do a lot of the work.
I'm Australian, not a hater of Orica, but I'm not a fanboy either. Definitely a Sagan fan and Valverde fan...buy Orica don't grate me, nor do I dislike the team.
However if asked "did I like how they beat Peter Sagan" on that day, my response is a no.
They let him do around 50% of the work, and it took all 3 Orica riders to beat him into second.
The next day is the tell. Peter Sagan won the next day. I believe that was his 3rd or 4th stage at the time.
Orica had their stage win and did well.
But I won't forget it took 3 of them in a group of 7 just to beat Peter Sagan, who did a huge volume of the work and he then found the capacity to win even more stages afterwards. It pales into comparison when looked at this way.
Orica and Matthews will remember his first stage win at the Tour...I'll remember how they only just beat Peter Sagan.
That's our different perspectives. Don't assume I dislike Pinot. Sheesh, I think people are being really harsh on him, Quintana and many other GC riders top end abilities. They rode really hard and Pinot moving up on stage 20 to help Quintana and Nibali...that was a classy move.
Maybe it's me not watching as many races as people in Europe, but I REALLY don't understand the 'perception' that Pinot is a really strong time trialist.
If anyone here would care to enlighten me how well you expect him to do in relation to the other GC guys, like Contador, Porte, Quintana, Aru, Landa, Bardet, Chaves, Valverde, and of course, Froome + Dumoulin...knock yourselves out.
But to me, he's been steady and consistent at the END OF 3 weeks in that discipline. Not ahead of the GC contenders and in no mans lands between them and the last 2 (Froome and Dumoulin who are completely different riders), but in among them.
He's consistent.
An example of inconsistency is TJVG. Hence why I said, Pinot should never be contrasted with him. It's kind of rude.
My use of Bardet was to illustrate that France had 2nd, 3rd and 6th in 2014. Lots of national patriotism getting strong. You just watch this years Dauphine. If Porte wins or comes second...wait for the Aussie hype train to kick into full blown over drive. It's to be expected should Porte do well. People have that hope...I get that.
What I expected last year, was that Bardet would be more attacking in nature. He'd shown some of that in 2014. To see him, when everyone else literally could not do it, attempt it last July, was great. It is why he finished second. Sky weren't going to allow it though. I was simply suggesting, perhaps Pinot might have noticed that aggression late in last years Tour and considered it for himself. Perhaps he asked himself "why not have a dig?" Then went for it.
Plus, he knows now, it can work. Worked on stage 19 and 20. Plus on Blockhaus, he looked exceptionally strong. IMO, he was very balanced all Giro. Nibali was lower earlier on, went a bit higher then dropped back to Pinot's level. He tends to do that...or be higher overall.
Consider this...I expected Kruisjwijk to be up there in the front runners. Pinot performed better than the guy who dominated the first 2 weeks of last years Giro. That's promising. He just needs to keep doing what he is, planning with their team and being tactically sound and strategic. That will give him some really good results and should keep the French happy.
BTW, don't get me started on Orica and how they've split all their 4 GC riders, Chaves, the 2 Yates boys and Kreuziger. The whole team should have been here at the Giro, not split between 2 grand tours. This Giro is the perfect example of how taking ones opportunities as a racer pays off for guys like Dumoulin, Pinot and Zakarin. All did really well with the races circumstances.
FWIW I think Bardet getting 5th this year in the Tour, would be a great result. The Tour is OVER LOADED this year. Quintana, Valverde, Porte, Bardet, Froome, Contador and Chaves...Froome and Quintana between them ALWAYS take 2 podium places more or less. Guys like Contador and Chaves IMO need to not split their GC squads between big races. They need to throw everything into the ONE race and go for the WIN.
Makes riding the Giro look like the work of a genius. On that note...
- May 17, 2013
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A lot of what you say makes sense, we're not that far apart.
For the ITT hype, a lot of it began when he won the '16 Criterium International ITT (only 10 km) with one of the best times ever recorded - same course since '13. On par with Tom, Froome...then the Romandie ITT win ahead of the same two was the validation. The national title was great beating ITT World's silver medalist Coppel by a huge margin. So yes, Pinot had significantly improved his skills against the clock.
What I wonder is: how much has he worked his ITT over the winter and since the beginning of the season? Thibaut has clearly regressed. I check his rides on Strava, I see a lot of MTB (maybe it explains his improved bike handling), I follow the FDJ website, I can't find anything. And from the horse's mouth, in his interview on rest day before Montefalco, Tibopino pretty much stated what I'm suspecting...
I don't assume that you dislike Pinot as you wrote. I find you fair in your evaluation of his Giro performance.
For the ITT hype, a lot of it began when he won the '16 Criterium International ITT (only 10 km) with one of the best times ever recorded - same course since '13. On par with Tom, Froome...then the Romandie ITT win ahead of the same two was the validation. The national title was great beating ITT World's silver medalist Coppel by a huge margin. So yes, Pinot had significantly improved his skills against the clock.
What I wonder is: how much has he worked his ITT over the winter and since the beginning of the season? Thibaut has clearly regressed. I check his rides on Strava, I see a lot of MTB (maybe it explains his improved bike handling), I follow the FDJ website, I can't find anything. And from the horse's mouth, in his interview on rest day before Montefalco, Tibopino pretty much stated what I'm suspecting...
I don't assume that you dislike Pinot as you wrote. I find you fair in your evaluation of his Giro performance.
Anyway is there any chance that Pinot makes his main target the 2018 Giro, then ride the TDF for stages - Gaudu could debut in the 2018 TDF for experience - Then in 2019 Gaudu could ride GC in the Giro and Pinot has another crack at the TDF - Could see this being beneficial to FDJ in both a racing sense and a sponsorship sense.
- May 17, 2013
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I don't know what FDJ has in mind, what the sponsor is ready to give. This Giro was a success, it was televised in France, and the TV ratings were very strong. I think that the sponsor will crush the numbers and realize that the return on investment was there.
Marc Madiot will develop David Gaudu, not rush him. That's the right thing to do, although the greed in me would want him to be in next Giro with Pinot and Reichenbach. Morabito is not getting any younger.
What will the Giro course be? What will the TdF look like? Who will be participating? I think that it will factor in the decision. The one question mark short term: what will the FDJ lineup look like for this upcoming Tour? I hope that Madiot doesn't get greedy and think GC for Tibopino. The plan is to go for stages and surround Demare. It should remain that way.
For all the discussions that took place here, I don't think that Thibaut will tank in Germany. He probably wants yellow jersey and win atop la PDBF. Then, although the route goes through on his home ground in Franche Comte, he must lose a good 15 minutes before the Grand Colombier, Mont du Chat stage 9. For us Franc-Comtois, winning this would be bigger than a rainbow jersey.
I'm getting ahead of myself. Again . Fan boy .
Marc Madiot will develop David Gaudu, not rush him. That's the right thing to do, although the greed in me would want him to be in next Giro with Pinot and Reichenbach. Morabito is not getting any younger.
What will the Giro course be? What will the TdF look like? Who will be participating? I think that it will factor in the decision. The one question mark short term: what will the FDJ lineup look like for this upcoming Tour? I hope that Madiot doesn't get greedy and think GC for Tibopino. The plan is to go for stages and surround Demare. It should remain that way.
For all the discussions that took place here, I don't think that Thibaut will tank in Germany. He probably wants yellow jersey and win atop la PDBF. Then, although the route goes through on his home ground in Franche Comte, he must lose a good 15 minutes before the Grand Colombier, Mont du Chat stage 9. For us Franc-Comtois, winning this would be bigger than a rainbow jersey.
I'm getting ahead of myself. Again
. Fan boy .- Aug 5, 2009
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Re:
Not every rider can be an Evans or a Uran and really improve their TT. Oddly Uran's GC riding went downhill fast after a season of much improved TTs. Most of the time the good stay good and the mediocre don't improve much. Some prefer to get in the wind tunnel and fiddle with equipment and position and sometimes that can be a disaster as well. Some riders like Andy I think just thought if they won the race it would be in the mountains and extra work on the TT wasn't going to improve his times much. Just think what a good TT coach could have done with someone like Pozzovivo. He rode a really good Giro but his TT is just ugly to watch. His knees stick out and he isn't even in a good position. I think some riders find it too difficult to hold such positions for the duration of a TT Compare he and Schleck to Dumoulin and Froome just aerodynamically. Quintana seems to have improved his position in TTs but he never looks really comfortable on a TT bike. I really thought Pinot had a shot at the podium but his TTs were not what I expected. He actually looked pretty nervous before the final TT.
Brullnux said:
Not every rider can be an Evans or a Uran and really improve their TT. Oddly Uran's GC riding went downhill fast after a season of much improved TTs. Most of the time the good stay good and the mediocre don't improve much. Some prefer to get in the wind tunnel and fiddle with equipment and position and sometimes that can be a disaster as well. Some riders like Andy I think just thought if they won the race it would be in the mountains and extra work on the TT wasn't going to improve his times much. Just think what a good TT coach could have done with someone like Pozzovivo. He rode a really good Giro but his TT is just ugly to watch. His knees stick out and he isn't even in a good position. I think some riders find it too difficult to hold such positions for the duration of a TT Compare he and Schleck to Dumoulin and Froome just aerodynamically. Quintana seems to have improved his position in TTs but he never looks really comfortable on a TT bike. I really thought Pinot had a shot at the podium but his TTs were not what I expected. He actually looked pretty nervous before the final TT.
- May 17, 2013
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Velonews published the article "5 takeaways" from the Giro.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjQ4P3t5pjUAhVGlVQKHWV5CmwQFggtMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.velonews.com%2F2017%2F05%2Fgiro-ditalia%2Fgreatest-giro-ever-five-takeaways-italy_439531&usg=AFQjCNFM_4KcOVlOzbOpOwMdFKkLlGwxtw&sig2=UWO5pWXqmUZaYwmuN6vM0A
So it may be that Pinot's training was all about climbing, and true he was more explosive on single climbs, Etna, Blockhaus, earlier this year on the Murito losing to Sagan. It seems to me that Tibopino, like Quitana in his bid to win, under-estimated Dumourain. So did we, looking back at pre-Giro predictions, or the 2017 predictions thread. It was alot of Quintana, Nibali, Cruchweak (I give up spelling his name ), a little Zakarin...
In the interview, Thibaut states that all the climbing training left him with less power as a "rouleur". It makes sense, more sense than an ITT specialist not losing his ITT skills AND becoming a world-class climber...
No one took BM Tom seriously. I was warning before the Giro: take him out, don't let him hang in there in the GC, turn him into a stage hunter, or he'll kill you.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjQ4P3t5pjUAhVGlVQKHWV5CmwQFggtMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.velonews.com%2F2017%2F05%2Fgiro-ditalia%2Fgreatest-giro-ever-five-takeaways-italy_439531&usg=AFQjCNFM_4KcOVlOzbOpOwMdFKkLlGwxtw&sig2=UWO5pWXqmUZaYwmuN6vM0A
So it may be that Pinot's training was all about climbing, and true he was more explosive on single climbs, Etna, Blockhaus, earlier this year on the Murito losing to Sagan. It seems to me that Tibopino, like Quitana in his bid to win, under-estimated Dumourain. So did we, looking back at pre-Giro predictions, or the 2017 predictions thread. It was alot of Quintana, Nibali, Cruchweak (I give up spelling his name
), a little Zakarin...In the interview, Thibaut states that all the climbing training left him with less power as a "rouleur". It makes sense, more sense than an ITT specialist not losing his ITT skills AND becoming a world-class climber...
No one took BM Tom seriously. I was warning before the Giro: take him out, don't let him hang in there in the GC, turn him into a stage hunter, or he'll kill you.
- Aug 5, 2009
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Tonton said:Velonews published the article "5 takeaways" from the Giro.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjQ4P3t5pjUAhVGlVQKHWV5CmwQFggtMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.velonews.com%2F2017%2F05%2Fgiro-ditalia%2Fgreatest-giro-ever-five-takeaways-italy_439531&usg=AFQjCNFM_4KcOVlOzbOpOwMdFKkLlGwxtw&sig2=UWO5pWXqmUZaYwmuN6vM0A
So it may be that Pinot's training was all about climbing, and true he was more explosive on single climbs, Etna, Blockhaus, earlier this year on the Murito losing to Sagan. It seems to me that Tibopino, like Quitana in his bid to win, under-estimated Dumourain. So did we, looking back at pre-Giro predictions, or the 2017 predictions thread. It was alot of Quintana, Nibali, Cruchweak (I give up spelling his name
In the interview, Thibaut states that all the climbing training left him with less power as a "rouleur". It makes sense, more sense than an ITT specialist not losing his ITT skills AND becoming a world-class climber...
No one took BM Tom seriously. I was warning before the Giro: take him out, don't let him hang in there in the GC, turn him into a stage hunter, or he'll kill you.
By the time Dumoulin does the Tour lessons will have been learned. How Indurain like, Dumoulin can become is the question. As for Pinot what he says sounds right. It's hard to get the balance right in GTs. Usually it's only the winner of the race that is just as strong in TTs and climbing or so much better in one discipline like Dumoulin that he can balance his time losses in the mountains.
- May 17, 2013
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Very true on the Dumoulin part: now the opposition knows. What I'm curious is to see what they will do. Sky is used to take the advantage and then control. What happens when Dumoulin is 1'30" ahead of Froome in a typical '90s design (with ITT stage 8 or so)?
For Tibopino, yes I agree: Millar thinks that he can win a GT and so do I. Fine-tuning is an art: building on this year's experience, FDJ can set themselves up for a great Giro next year. Figure out the formula on rest day. French teams are used to the Tour lame stage. This was a long ITT and the Stelvio stage. Big miscalculation, or lack thereof. In '18 I would put Gaudu in there with Reichenbach, Molard will be stronger (and has the same bike settings as Thibaut),
I would give it one more Giro before an all-out attack on the TdF. TV ratings have been better than expected, thank you l'Equipe TV. The sponsor is happy.
For Tibopino, yes I agree: Millar thinks that he can win a GT and so do I. Fine-tuning is an art: building on this year's experience, FDJ can set themselves up for a great Giro next year. Figure out the formula on rest day. French teams are used to the Tour lame stage. This was a long ITT and the Stelvio stage. Big miscalculation, or lack thereof. In '18 I would put Gaudu in there with Reichenbach, Molard will be stronger (and has the same bike settings as Thibaut),
I would give it one more Giro before an all-out attack on the TdF. TV ratings have been better than expected, thank you l'Equipe TV. The sponsor is happy.
- May 19, 2014
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Imo, he should ride the Giro and the Vuelta next year and only transition to the Tour when he has a GT in the bag. And the same goes to Bardet.
French media puts such an amount of pressure on every french rider who shows a bit of talent to ride for the GC that they end up doing nothing.
French media puts such an amount of pressure on every french rider who shows a bit of talent to ride for the GC that they end up doing nothing.
- May 17, 2013
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Re:
.
French media sucks, building the hype, and the masses follow. And there's a nasty thing about (not exclusive to) the French: they will destroy you the second that you don't win. Hinault DNF at the '80 TdF: no b**ls. The same BH who had just won a LBL for the ages. A race that we still talk about.
Or the feuds like Anquetil-Poulidor. How great was it that we (the French) had two great champions? Now it's Bardet and Pinot. For Pete's sake, the Germans were surrounding Paris in 1870 and we were busy fighting each other.
And that's what Iike about the Dutch: call it what you want, but Jungels and Bauke helping was huge. Dumoulin won the Giro for all the Dutch, including Bob and Mollema. They understood it. Good for the Dutch. In the meantime we get Bardet and Pinot in Mende playing games, get beat, and Bardet attacking Pinot, losing the stage and probably the Dauphine last year.
The French are stupid: trust me, I'm one of them .
Agree 1000% If the Vuelta is north-west heavy, as it can be, Tibopino will not fry. It can be hot in Spain, in the south, and that would be ugly for him. Actually, had the weather been "usual" in this Giro, some rain and cold, I would argue that the GC would be different. But as I wrote before: IF my aunt had a set of these, she would be my unclelenric said:
. French media sucks, building the hype, and the masses follow. And there's a nasty thing about (not exclusive to) the French: they will destroy you the second that you don't win. Hinault DNF at the '80 TdF: no b**ls. The same BH who had just won a LBL for the ages. A race that we still talk about.
Or the feuds like Anquetil-Poulidor. How great was it that we (the French) had two great champions? Now it's Bardet and Pinot. For Pete's sake, the Germans were surrounding Paris in 1870 and we were busy fighting each other.
And that's what Iike about the Dutch: call it what you want, but Jungels and Bauke helping was huge. Dumoulin won the Giro for all the Dutch, including Bob and Mollema. They understood it. Good for the Dutch. In the meantime we get Bardet and Pinot in Mende playing games, get beat, and Bardet attacking Pinot, losing the stage and probably the Dauphine last year.
The French are stupid: trust me, I'm one of them
.- Aug 5, 2009
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Re: Re:
Media is one eyed everywhere. I doubt that Colombian, Italian or Australian media is any better. It's all about dramatic headlines these days. As for the Dutch helping each other well I don't think the Spanish and anyone else for that matter can not be accused of that. The odd thing is they fight amongst each other in the World Road Championships. The Italians seem to be better riding for one rider at the Worlds.
Anquetil and Poulidor seemed to be class warfare but it was good to see that they made up later. I can understand why the French want a Frenchman to win the Tour more than anything else but the pressure on riders like Rolland when they were young must have been immense. The fact that the French haven't won any of the grand tours for a long time adds even more pressure and it must frustrate them like crazy to see a Canadian, Australian and Dutchman winning one. When Peraud and Pinot made the Tour podium in 2014 the French almost seemed to take it as a win even though Nibali won by 8 minutes ! Stupid is a generic trait, all cultures have this one of course, maybe the French are stupid with more style ?
Tonton said:Agree 1000% If the Vuelta is north-west heavy, as it can be, Tibopino will not fry. It can be hot in Spain, in the south, and that would be ugly for him. Actually, had the weather been "usual" in this Giro, some rain and cold, I would argue that the GC would be different. But as I wrote before: IF my aunt had a set of these, she would be my unclelenric said:
French media sucks, building the hype, and the masses follow. And there's a nasty thing about (not exclusive to) the French: they will destroy you the second that you don't win. Hinault DNF at the '80 TdF: no b**ls. The same BH who had just won a LBL for the ages. A race that we still talk about.
Or the feuds like Anquetil-Poulidor. How great was it that we (the French) had two great champions? Now it's Bardet and Pinot. For Pete's sake, the Germans were surrounding Paris in 1870 and we were busy fighting each other.
And that's what Iike about the Dutch: call it what you want, but Jungels and Bauke helping was huge. Dumoulin won the Giro for all the Dutch, including Bob and Mollema. They understood it. Good for the Dutch. In the meantime we get Bardet and Pinot in Mende playing games, get beat, and Bardet attacking Pinot, losing the stage and probably the Dauphine last year.
The French are stupid: trust me, I'm one of them
Media is one eyed everywhere. I doubt that Colombian, Italian or Australian media is any better. It's all about dramatic headlines these days. As for the Dutch helping each other well I don't think the Spanish and anyone else for that matter can not be accused of that. The odd thing is they fight amongst each other in the World Road Championships. The Italians seem to be better riding for one rider at the Worlds.
Anquetil and Poulidor seemed to be class warfare but it was good to see that they made up later. I can understand why the French want a Frenchman to win the Tour more than anything else but the pressure on riders like Rolland when they were young must have been immense. The fact that the French haven't won any of the grand tours for a long time adds even more pressure and it must frustrate them like crazy to see a Canadian, Australian and Dutchman winning one. When Peraud and Pinot made the Tour podium in 2014 the French almost seemed to take it as a win even though Nibali won by 8 minutes ! Stupid is a generic trait, all cultures have this one of course, maybe the French are stupid with more style ?
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