Thor confirms BMC! Better for Cadel?

[Damiano Machiavelli]

JV, if you happen to read this... how would you fix the transfer system? It seems to me this kind of stuff is unavoidable unless you only allow transfers after the end of the season, which would have some significant drawbacks.

Giving points to teams instead of riders would be a start. A 50/50 split between a rider and his team would be nice, maybe even 60/40 in favor of the team.

 

[hrotha]

Giving points to teams instead of riders would be a start. A 50/50 split between a rider and his team would be nice, maybe even 60/40 in favor of the team.

I don't see how that'd help. Sure, it would make having Hushovd start the Vuelta easier, but it wouldn't fix the issue where one rider is more interested in helping his future teammates rather than his current team.

 

[AussieGoddess]

Cadel on twitter:

"Checking the news..... I so want Thor #godofthunder on our Tour team next year.... Why do people say otherwise?"

Just repeating this ....

I do think Cadel's comments were taken well out of perspective. One of the major problems at BMC this year has been their lack of results other than Cadel. Yes - when he is racing its all about him ... but what about getting some results in the races he isnt in?

Thats what getting Thor (and Gilbert) is about, and I dont think that will interfere too much with Cadel.

 

[Anonymous]

Giving points to teams instead of riders would be a start. A 50/50 split between a rider and his team would be nice, maybe even 60/40 in favor of the team.

without going off topic too much, that would worsen the situation. riders would have even less reason to score points for their current team, and more likely to want to earn points for their future team.

Im not sure what the solution is, transfers during the season but they are under contract, transfer windows only at seasons end, but that would cause team ranking confusion and riders would still be in discussion during the season.

Only thing I can think of is allowing riders to talk with teams throughout the whole final year of their contract, but agents and teams being regulated so that full transparancy was effect and all transfer dealings were public. but that would have downsides.

Dont really know what the solution would be and would be fascinated to hear JV's ideas.

 

[Wallace]

Apparently it requires your rivals to crash out, be off form, get injured, be tired from a previous grand tour, or not be invited to the race. Evans' knowledge of what it take to win does not come from getting lucky one year and actually winning. It comes from racing the Tour for many years at a high level.

All of which was kind of my point: the idea that Cadel knows how to win the Tour is somewhat buttressed by his, you know, having won the Tour.

As for rivals crashing out--I'd say that a) none of the guys who crashed out would have been serious rivals anyway (Bottle? Wiggo? Kloden? No) and b) Cadel's not crashing was the result of strategy. Remember all the flack BMC got for spending so much energy in the first week keeping Cadel up at the head of the race? It's no accident he wasn't caught in any pile-ups. That's strategy. The only crash that seriously affected the out-come of the race was the one where AC banged up his knee--and we don't know how much that affected the race, because we don't know how exhausted Contador was--although the injury certainly took more out of him.

And as for his rivals being exhausted--that's a matter of long-term strategy. AC over-estimated both his and his team's strength. Cadel peaked for the Tour. While I'll admit that it is nice to see a racer like AC who seems to want to win multiple GTs and lots of smaller races every year, Cadel's sense of what he is capable of and how to achieve it may be a bit less thrilling to watch, but it's hard to argue with the results.

And Menchov for the Tour overall? Are you serious?

 

[auscyclefan94]

I love some posters on here. Before the tour they were like "He has no chance". He passed every single test even when very few of the so called 'experts thought he could. Now that he has won and beaten Andy Schleck who was the main challeneger o AC in the past few years and those same knockers are saying he got lucky...Idiots! Now those same haters are looking to find some sort of thing to criticise him for.

Awwww! How do you like them apples?

 

[jobiwan]

I love some posters on here. Before the tour they were like "He has no chance". He passed every single test even when very few of the so called 'experts thought he could. Now that he has won and beaten Andy Schleck who was the main challeneger o AC in the past few years and those same knockers are saying he got lucky...Idiots! Now those same haters are looking to find some sort of thing to criticise him for.

Awwww! How do you like them apples?

For goodness sakes, he DID get lucky!!!

He got lucky that Menchov didn't get an invite.
He got lucky that Contador wanted to do the Giro.
He got lucky that Contador and Sanchez lost time to crashes.
He got lucky that Wiggins, Van Den Broeck, Kloden, Horner, Vino, etc. all crashed out.
He got lucky that Gesink and Basso were severely affected by crashes.
He got lucky that he DIDN'T crash.
He got lucky that the only other men left standing couldn't time trial if their life depended on it.

In other words, he got lucky!! You have to have luck to win the Tour, you can't just have skill.

But even with all that, he still came out a deserved winner. No one is denying that!!!! But to slam posters who correctly note that he had more than a fair bit of luck and question their intelligence is just childish and ignoring the facts.

(It is however true that the Cadel comments about Thor probably read too much into it, however, myself included. )

 

[cineteq]

For goodness sakes, he DID get lucky!!!

He got lucky that Menchov didn't get an invite.
He got lucky that Contador wanted to do the Giro.
He got lucky that Contador and Sanchez lost time to crashes.
He got lucky that Wiggins, Van Den Broeck, Kloden, Horner, Vino, etc. all crashed out.
He got lucky that Gesink and Basso were severely affected by crashes.
He got lucky that he DIDN'T crash.
He got lucky that the only other men left standing couldn't time trial if their life depended on it.

In other words, he got lucky!! You have to have luck to win the Tour, you can't just have skill.

But even with all that, he still came out a deserved winner. No one is denying that!!!! But to slam posters who correctly note that he had more than a fair bit of luck and question their intelligence is just childish and ignoring the facts.

(It is however true that the Cadel comments about Thor probably read too much into it, however, myself included. )

Actually, if all the contenders would have been healthy his final gap would have been bigger. Think about it, he would have have more help from the other guys when Andy took time on him...the only X factor would have been Contador for obvious reasons.

PS: On top of that, you're are hater fanboy

 

[auscyclefan94]

For goodness sakes, he DID get lucky!!!

He got lucky that Menchov didn't get an invite.
He got lucky that Contador wanted to do the Giro.
He got lucky that Contador and Sanchez lost time to crashes.
He got lucky that Wiggins, Van Den Broeck, Kloden, Horner, Vino, etc. all crashed out.
He got lucky that Gesink and Basso were severely affected by crashes.
He got lucky that he DIDN'T crash.
He got lucky that the only other men left standing couldn't time trial if their life depended on it.

In other words, he got lucky!! You have to have luck to win the Tour, you can't just have skill.

But even with all that, he still came out a deserved winner. No one is denying that!!!! But to slam posters who correctly note that he had more than a fair bit of luck and question their intelligence is just childish and ignoring the facts.

(It is however true that the Cadel comments about Thor probably read too much into it, however, myself included. )

Typical Hater....

Look in the mirror!!!!

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

The only crash that seriously affected the out-come of the race was the one where AC banged up his knee..

What? Kloden, Bottle, VDB2, Brajkovic, Horner, Wiggins, Gesink, Contador, Vino, Sanchez (I probably left out two or three) were all affected by crashes. Basso crashed during training. Wiggins, Bottle, and Kloden are all riders like Evans. They cannot attack in the mountains, but they can hang with the last group, waiting for a time trial. Normally I would not rate Wiggins chances as anything more than a joke, but the ASO's new course designs make it possible for a crap rider like him to actually win the big one. Both Bottle and Kloden have as much experience racing for the podium of GTs as Evans does. Bottle is actually a better climber than Evans. Until Evans' Tour win, Bottle had a much better stage racing record. Menchov was not invited, but he is also an Evans-like rider. Any one of those guys, Kloden, Bottle, Wiggins, and Menchov, would have had as good a chance as Evans of winning if they would have made it through the first week.

The other riders who crashed out or were affected by crashes would have actually raced in the mountains, varying the pace with sharp attacks, which has always been Evans' weakness in the mountains. The pace in the mountains was so lame that Voeckler, who expected to lose yellow on the first mountain stage, nearly held on through all the mountain stages. We were left with two Schlecks sporting questionable form who did not do much. What this Tour showed is that the Schlecks are not as good as people thought they were. If they are slightly off form then their climbing is almost pedestrian by GC contender standards.

I said it before. Evans is the Australian George Hincapie. Both riders could only win their career-long objective if all the stars aligned. Hincapie maybe got one chance. His Trek crapped out on him. Incredibly, Evans got three chances. The first two came when all the contenders from the first half of the 00s disappeared, leaving the second rate riders like himself. He could not seal the deal. The third time he got incredibly lucky and made good. It is not Evans fault that nearly everyone else fell by the wayside, but we do not need to look at this through a delusional and jingoistic lens like certain aussies who would have you believe that Evans is one of the greats.

Riders get lucky and win races that they really should not win all the time. It is one of the charms of bike racing. Hincapie keeps trying to win P-R or Flanders despite the fact that even when he is in top form there will still be four or five riders stronger than he is. There is always the chance (or at least there used to be) that crashes could take a stronger man or two out and the race could unfold in such a way to allow him to win. It was a real possibility, not a good probability, but a reasonable possibility. It never worked out for Hincapie. Evans lucked out and came up with the win.

 

[jobiwan]

Typical Hater....

Look in the mirror!!!!

Look, Cadel could only beat the riders that were there (and those that didn't crash, weren't fatigued, etc...), and he did that. Chapeau to him, he deserves the Tour.

But to say that he had no luck whatsoever in winning the Tour is beyond reason.
And to call anyone who says otherwise a hater (when in fact they were very happy for Cadel) is ridiculous.

But hey, that's fine. But when you wonder why so many are "bashing" Cadel, YOU might want to look in the mirror.

 

[dlwssonic]

What? Kloden, Bottle, VDB2, Brajkovic, Horner, Wiggins, Gesink, Contador, Vino, Sanchez (I probably left out two or three) were all affected by crashes. Basso crashed during training. Wiggins, Bottle, and Kloden are all riders like Evans. They cannot attack in the mountains, but they can hang with the last group, waiting for a time trial. Normally I would not rate Wiggins chances as anything more than a joke, but the ASO's new course designs make it possible for a crap rider like him to actually win the big one. Both Bottle and Kloden have as much experience racing for the podium of GTs as Evans does. Bottle is actually a better climber than Evans. Until Evans' Tour win, Bottle had a much better stage racing record. Menchov was not invited, but he is also an Evans-like rider. Any one of those guys, Kloden, Bottle, Wiggins, and Menchov, would have had as good a chance as Evans of winning if they would have made it through the first week.

The other riders who crashed out or were affected by crashes would have actually raced in the mountains, varying the pace with sharp attacks, which has always been Evans' weakness in the mountains. The pace in the mountains was so lame that Voeckler, who expected to lose yellow on the first mountain stage, nearly held on through all the mountain stages. We were left with two Schlecks sporting questionable form who did not do much. What this Tour showed is that the Schlecks are not as good as people thought they were. If they are slightly off form then their climbing is almost pedestrian by GC contender standards.

I said it before. Evans is the Australian George Hincapie. Both riders could only win their career-long objective if all the stars aligned. Hincapie maybe got one chance. His Trek crapped out on him. Incredibly, Evans got three chances. The first two came when all the contenders from the first half of the 00s disappeared, leaving the second rate riders like himself. He could not seal the deal. The third time he got incredibly lucky and made good. It is not Evans fault that nearly everyone else fell by the wayside, but we do not need to look at this through a delusional and jingoistic lens like certain aussies who would have you believe that Evans is one of the greats.

Riders get lucky and win races that they really should not win all the time. It is one of the charms of bike racing. Hincapie keeps trying to win P-R or Flanders despite the fact that even when he is in top form there will still be four or five riders stronger than he is. There is always the chance (or at least there used to be) that crashes could take a stronger man or two out and the race could unfold in such a way to allow him to win. It was a real possibility, not a good probability, but a reasonable possibility. It never worked out for Hincapie. Evans lucked out and came up with the win.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

Awww. Is that the best you ausholes got?

You do not like reality so all you can do is whinge and call people haters. I think we have learned where Evans gets his whingy attitude from. It appears to be a national defect rather than a personality one.

 

[powderpuff]

Any one of those guys, Kloden, Bottle, and Menchov, would have had as good a chance as Evans of winning if they would have made it through the first week.

You mean like in 2007 and 2008 when they did worse than Cadel, and Cadel had the crash in 2008... get real. They have all had their chances at the TdF.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

without going off topic too much, that would worsen the situation. riders would have even less reason to score points for their current team, and more likely to want to earn points for their future team.

Split the points 50/50 so the rider and his team have an incentive to win. As it stands now, the smart move for the team is to give riders who will be on the team next season a chance to collect points.

Thor would have dropped out part way through the Vuelta anyay.

 

[dlwssonic]

No matter how many times I tell you guys im not aussie you guys wont listen

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

You mean like in 2007 and 2008 when they did worse than Cadel, and Cadel had the crash in 2008... get real. They have all had their chances at the TdF.

All those riders are just like Evans. None of them has the class to sieze the race by the throat and force their way to victory. They all ride defensively and hope the dice fall in their favor. With a slightly difference fall of the dice, Bottle and Kloden could have won the Tour. They each could have won multiple GTs. They never had the luck. Evans eventually did get a lucky roll. Menchov already has two GT wins because he was smart enough, unlike Evans, to target GTs that were favorable to his racing abilities. Menchov dramatically increased his odds by targeting GTs with courses that suited him.

 

[Wallace]

What? Kloden, Bottle, VDB2, Brajkovic, Horner, Wiggins, Gesink, Contador, Vino, Sanchez (I probably left out two or three) were all affected by crashes. Basso crashed during training. Wiggins, Bottle, and Kloden are all riders like Evans. They cannot attack in the mountains, but they can hang with the last group, waiting for a time trial. Normally I would not rate Wiggins chances as anything more than a joke, but the ASO's new course designs make it possible for a crap rider like him to actually win the big one. Both Bottle and Kloden have as much experience racing for the podium of GTs as Evans does. Bottle is actually a better climber than Evans. Until Evans' Tour win, Bottle had a much better stage racing record. Menchov was not invited, but he is also an Evans-like rider. Any one of those guys, Kloden, Bottle, Wiggins, and Menchov, would have had as good a chance as Evans of winning if they would have made it through the first week.

The other riders who crashed out or were affected by crashes would have actually raced in the mountains, varying the pace with sharp attacks, which has always been Evans' weakness in the mountains. The pace in the mountains was so lame that Voeckler, who expected to lose yellow on the first mountain stage, nearly held on through all the mountain stages. We were left with two Schlecks sporting questionable form who did not do much. What this Tour showed is that the Schlecks are not as good as people thought they were. If they are slightly off form then their climbing is almost pedestrian by GC contender standards.

I said it before. Evans is the Australian George Hincapie. Both riders could only win their career-long objective if all the stars aligned. Hincapie maybe got one chance. His Trek crapped out on him. Incredibly, Evans got three chances. The first two came when all the contenders from the first half of the 00s disappeared, leaving the second rate riders like himself. He could not seal the deal. The third time he got incredibly lucky and made good. It is not Evans fault that nearly everyone else fell by the wayside, but we do not need to look at this through a delusional and jingoistic lens like certain aussies who would have you believe that Evans is one of the greats.

Riders get lucky and win races that they really should not win all the time. It is one of the charms of bike racing. Hincapie keeps trying to win P-R or Flanders despite the fact that even when he is in top form there will still be four or five riders stronger than he is. There is always the chance (or at least there used to be) that crashes could take a stronger man or two out and the race could unfold in such a way to allow him to win. It was a real possibility, not a good probability, but a reasonable possibility. It never worked out for Hincapie. Evans lucked out and came up with the win.

My point, which you seem to be working hard to not understand, is that Evans didn't crash because he used his team to keep him out of trouble. He used his team (the whole "cycling is a team sport" thing--remember?). His not crashing had nothing to do with luck. Again, and for the last time: Cadel's victory was the result of very intelligent racing with a team build around him. He didn't make any mistakes. You could call that luck, but you'd be wrong.

Also: to repeat an often used phrase hereabouts: did you actually watch the race? Evans was second to no one in the mountains. He conserved his energy, but he covered attack after attack and made a few decisive ones himself. He was very strategic in where he used his energy, but when he did, he always did what was needed for the moment. Bottle, Horner and Kloden wouldn't have been the slightest problem for him, or Menchov. And don't get me started with Gesink or Wiggo He certainly handled the Schlecks, and I haven't heard anyone here say that any of those riders are at the level of Andy. The only person who could have beaten Cadel this year would have been a rested, uninjured Contador. We might get to see that next year--and then, for reasons that belong in another part of the forum, we might not.

 

[powderpuff]

All those riders are just like Evans. None of them has the class to sieze the race by the throat and force their way to victory. They all ride defensively and hope the dice fall in their favor. With a slightly difference fall of the dice, Bottle and Kloden could have won the Tour. They each could have won multiple GTs. They never had the luck. Evans eventually did get a lucky roll. Menchov already has two GT wins because he was smart enough, unlike Evans, to target GTs that were favorable to his racing abilities. Menchov dramatically increased his odds by targeting GTs with courses that suited him.

What a load of faecal matter. There was no luck involved in his climb up Galibier or the way he got back after the bike change before ALpe d'Huez. Only luck was for Schleck if they had worked with Cadel on Galibier, AS would not have finished on the podium.

It's not about winning races that are easier to win, it is about having a dream of winning the TdF and pursuing it. He didn't care if he was supposed to win or what would be said if he didn't win but he wanted it.

And guess what he won it... was he favourite this year, no, far from it but he and his team put him in a position to win and when the time came to step up, he did.

Oh and by the way he may just do it again next year., whether you like or not.

 

[jobiwan]

What a load of faecal matter. There was no luck involved in his climb up Galibier or the way he got back after the bike change before ALpe d'Huez. Only luck was for Schleck if they had worked with Cadel on Galibier, AS would not have finished on the podium.

Actually, Cadel was probably lucky he had a mechanical, as Schleck was all alone with Contador, while Evans had a whole field to help him chase. By the time they were together on the Alpe, Schleck didn't have enough to muster an attack. So, Cadel got lucky there.

And guess what he won it... was he favourite this year, no, far from it but he and his team put him in a position to win and when the time came to step up, he did.

That's the point you've been trying to argue. We've been saying that yes he won, but you challenge us when we say he had no luck in doing so. He wasn't the favorite, as you admit, and so to win the Tour required certain things to go his way, like other contenders losing time and crashing out, luckily leaving him the two weakest time trialers to handle, which he did.

Had the crashes taken the Schlecks out and not affected the times of Sanchez and Contador, the result would have probably been different. So, Cadel got lucky there as well.

Oh and by the way he may just do it again next year., whether you like or not.

And if he does, then good for him. But he'll need some more luck and a few more breaks to fall his way, and if he capitalizes again, then Chapeau to him.

He took advantage of a good situation, and he won the Tour. But do you honestly believe that he wins the Tour without the crashes in the first week?

 

[BM1979]

Awww. Is that the best you ausholes got?

You do not like reality so all you can do is whinge and call people haters. I think we have learned where Evans gets his whingy attitude from. It appears to be a national defect rather than a personality one.

You dont like Aussies based on a few , let me guess your one of those ***** Italian Soccer Ultras

 

[powderpuff]

He took advantage of a good situation, and he won the Tour. But do you honestly believe that he wins the Tour without the crashes in the first week?

It's not about if's or buts. At the start of the 3400+ kms they all had the same time, at the end one was ahead... he wins.

 

[jobiwan]

It's not about if's or buts. At the start of the 3400+ kms they all had the same time, at the end one was ahead... he wins.

No one is denying that. Just admit that he had a bit of luck, and we'll move on.

 

[auscyclefan94]

If you really think that Gesink, Horner or JVDB were going to beat him especially with that final time trial then you are kdding yourself.

btw, I reject the claim he didn't have bad luck this year.


Again firstly you lot say he has no chance. Every time he or his team proves you knockers wrong you still say he will crack in the mountains. When it comes down to the tt you lot still say that he won't win. But guess what? He did. It would be nice if you stopped making moronic comments about him and gave a little bit more credit to a champion.

 

[swuzzlebubble]

If you really think that Gesink, Horner or JVDB were going to beat him especially with that final time trial then you are kdding yourself.

btw, I reject the claim he didn't have bad luck this year.


Again firstly you lot say he has no chance. Every time he or his team proves you knockers wrong you still say he will crack in the mountains. When it comes down to the tt you lot still say that he won't win. But guess what? He did. It would be nice if you stopped making moronic comments about him and gave a little bit more credit to a champion.

He wont win seven in a row!