Thoughts on Astana so far?

[red_flanders]

It's only what the Italian press is saying.

Why are the Italian press focusing on Vino's Tour chances during the Giro, a race where he actually does have a chance at winning the overall? Odd.

Can you pst a link to these stories?

 

[red_flanders]

If there was some confusion I was refering to the Giro.

Oh. Got it.

 

[Wallace]

This has nothing to do with armstrong. Historically, vino has shown himself to be a selfish rider who rarely plays by team plans unless those plans surround him. He can state that he will support contador all he wants, I won't believe it until I see it. If vino sees a chance to put himself in yellow I have no doubt that he will take it. That is who he is.
Nevertheless, I don't think it will matter because he simply isn't as strong a rider as contador.

Actually, what's total BS is the idea that Vinokourov is a "selfish rider." This perception is based on one race: the 2005 Tour, where Vino said before hand that the team leader would be decided on the road--and was not contradicted by the DS. This lead to divisions in the team, and the embarrassment of stage 14. At the time he clearly thought he was a better bet for the overall than Ullrich (he certainly took his preparation more seriously).

Before that Tour, Vino was a loyal and hard-working team rider for Telekom. If you can find a single instance of Vino disobeying team rules, screwing another rider, or of acting "selfishly" against team interests, other than the 2005 Tour, I'll concede you know more about cycling than I do an henceforth defer to your great wisdom. But that won't happen, because all you're doing is repeating a third-hand piece of baseless nonsense.

 

[red_flanders]

Actually, what's total BS is the idea that Vinokourov is a "selfish rider." This perception is based on one race: the 2005 Tour, where Vino said before hand that the team leader would be decided on the road--and was not contradicted by the DS. This lead to divisions in the team, and the embarrassment of stage 14. At the time he clearly thought he was a better bet for the overall than Ullrich (he certainly took his preparation more seriously).

Before that Tour, Vino was a loyal and hard-working team rider for Telekom. If you can find a single instance of Vino disobeying team rules, screwing another rider, or of acting "selfishly" against team interests, other than the 2005 Tour, I'll concede you know more about cycling than I do an henceforth defer to your great wisdom. But that won't happen, because all you're doing is repeating a third-hand piece of baseless nonsense.

Good post. For crying out loud, the guy even followed team orders in the Olympics in 2000.

 

[Potomac]

So now Vino is Mr. Discipline? No thanks. He launches crazy attacks, sometimes it seems brilliant and other times not. That's why he's popular around the world. He's sees a chance and takes it.

 

[offbyone]

Actually, what's total BS is the idea that Vinokourov is a "selfish rider." This perception is based on one race: the 2005 Tour, where Vino said before hand that the team leader would be decided on the road--and was not contradicted by the DS. This lead to divisions in the team, and the embarrassment of stage 14. At the time he clearly thought he was a better bet for the overall than Ullrich (he certainly took his preparation more seriously).

Before that Tour, Vino was a loyal and hard-working team rider for Telekom. If you can find a single instance of Vino disobeying team rules, screwing another rider, or of acting "selfishly" against team interests, other than the 2005 Tour, I'll concede you know more about cycling than I do an henceforth defer to your great wisdom. But that won't happen, because all you're doing is repeating a third-hand piece of baseless nonsense.

First of all, I am not measuring my cycling penis against yours, this isn't a contest buddy, I could really care less how great your cycling acumen is.

Secondly, I guess the obvious answer to your question is 2007. If you don't remember, that is when he could of supported Kloden, but instead he supported himself. This was suppose to be a tour where kloden got a real shot at the jersey. Instead, he forced kloden to be his domestique, kloden of course did the classy thing like he always does. Then Vino blatantly doped his way to getting his entire team kicked out of the tour. He didn't just sacrifice his reputation here, he hurt his whole team including a serious gc contender in kloden. IMO that is about as selfish as it comes.

Vino races with aggression and he is fun to watch because of it. He really shakes up races. But the guy is obviously a selfish and arrogant a$$.

 

[theswordsman]

I believe that Contador and Vino are friends, and that he'll keep his word about helping Alberto win the Tour. He also wants Contador to stay with Astana after this year, so he wouldn't do anything to mess that up.

Even if you don't believe his word, fitness level and peaks come into play. Vino has said he's at his peak fitness for the year for the Giro. If you've watched the race, that's easy to believe. If you're skeptical, he won Giro del Trentino, caught a flight after the tough Friday mountain stage, and nabbed a surprise win at Liege Bastogne Liege against people who targeted that race. He's spent a lot of time this year training at altitude on the climbs of Tenerife. He's going to give the Giro everything he has, especially on the tough mountain stages the last week.

When this race is over, he's got 33 days to rest, recover, and get back on the bike a bit so he can endure another three week event. He won't be doing massive training days on the climbs of the Tour, and he won't be as fit or race ready as he was at the start of the Giro. The whole Sky team is trying to train through the Giro to prepare for the Tour. They know Wiggins can't be at his best for both. Neither can Vino, and his highlighted part of the season ends in a couple of weeks. Riding the Tour for Contador is overtime.

Astana works together this year. They do their parts, and celebrate each other's victories.

 

[offbyone]

I believe that Contador and Vino are friends, and that he'll keep his word about helping Alberto win the Tour. He also wants Contador to stay with Astana after this year, so he wouldn't do anything to mess that up.

Even if you don't believe his word, fitness level and peaks come into play. Vino has said he's at his peak fitness for the year for the Giro. If you've watched the race, that's easy to believe. If you're skeptical, he won Giro del Trentino, caught a flight after the tough Friday mountain stage, and nabbed a surprise win at Liege Bastogne Liege against people who targeted that race. He's spent a lot of time this year training at altitude on the climbs of Tenerife. He's going to give the Giro everything he has, especially on the tough mountain stages the last week.

When this race is over, he's got 33 days to rest, recover, and get back on the bike a bit so he can endure another three week event. He won't be doing massive training days on the climbs of the Tour, and he won't be as fit or race ready as he was at the start of the Giro. The whole Sky team is trying to train through the Giro to prepare for the Tour. They know Wiggins can't be at his best for both. Neither can Vino, and his highlighted part of the season ends in a couple of weeks. Riding the Tour for Contador is overtime.

Astana works together this year. They do their parts, and celebrate each other's victories.

I agree, it is unrealistic for him to place high at the giro and also make a real go at the tour. And if he sticks to his word it will certainly go a long way to help restore his reputation. Not only that as you suggest, helping contador win the tour can only benefit him by putting money in his pockets and help retain the astana sponsorship. I am still not really fond of his personality, but he does amazing things on the bike.

What puzzles me about this is the parallel in evans. I don't understand how he expects to compete in the Tdf while also making a go at the giro. It will surely be interesting to watch how it all pans out. We are truly being treated to a banner year in cycling.

 

[bobs nob]

So now Vino is Mr. Discipline? No thanks. He launches crazy attacks, sometimes it seems brilliant and other times not. That's why he's popular around the world. He's sees a chance and takes it.

I don't know about 'popular around the world', but if he sees an opportunity and when he is feeling good, then he usually goes for it. I will be surprised if he employs the 'maverick' strategy in the tdf. IF AC is healthy, it could be very exciting if it's Astana vs the World, otherwise if teams don't employ a collusive strategy to isolate and attack AC, given the same caveat about health, it could be more of a 3 week coronation.

I don't know if Astana is all that yet. But it's hard to say they haven't exceeded expectations albeit low ones, especially in the cycling media. I think cycling fans are a pretty savvy lot and they believed the team had the potential to do about as they have done so far. I think the biggest disappointment was the Crit Int'l, the outcome was affected by illness.

Where else have they underperformed?

 

[red_flanders]

So now Vino is Mr. Discipline? No thanks. He launches crazy attacks, sometimes it seems brilliant and other times not. That's why he's popular around the world. He's sees a chance and takes it.

He was called "selfish" not undisciplined. You can launch daring, sometimes crazy attacks and not be selfish. Daring, crazy attacks make the sport. I can think of only one instance where he could have been accused of being selfish, and several when I wondered why he was playing along with the team to his own obvious detriment.

 

[Wallace]

First of all, I am not measuring my cycling penis against yours, this isn't a contest buddy, I could really care less how great your cycling acumen is.

Secondly, I guess the obvious answer to your question is 2007. If you don't remember, that is when he could of supported Kloden, but instead he supported himself. This was suppose to be a tour where kloden got a real shot at the jersey. Instead, he forced kloden to be his domestique, kloden of course did the classy thing like he always does. Then Vino blatantly doped his way to getting his entire team kicked out of the tour. He didn't just sacrifice his reputation here, he hurt his whole team including a serious gc contender in kloden. IMO that is about as selfish as it comes.

Vino races with aggression and he is fun to watch because of it. He really shakes up races. But the guy is obviously a selfish and arrogant a$$.

I'm sorry if I plugged into any insecurity you might have about your **** size. That was the farthest thing from my mind. It's okay if you don't know much about cycling--doesn't matter at all to me--but if you're going to make sweeping claims about a rider's career, it doesn't seem out of line to ask you to know something about that rider's career.

As for the 2007 Tour--are you really going to hold "Mr. Freibrug Clinic" Kloden up as a model of cleanliness? Really? The whole Telekom/T-Mobile squad was doped to the eyebrows. If we're going to bring the who was doped and who wasn't thing into the equation, then everything dissolves into meaninglessness. It's obvious that everyone on the team was doped. And are still doping. That's a completely different matter.

And in the 2007 Tour, Kloden was, as he always is, entirely willing to sacrifice his chances for the team leader, who was Vino. I don't know why, but Kloden seems to have no desire at all to win GTs (look at his current place of employment).

 

[karlboss]

Have to agree with wallace.

 

[rxgqgxnyfz]

Vino is as "selfish" as any rider of his level can be.

Just from the top of my head...

This year, he worked hard for Alberto to win Criterium International on the last climbs. Alberto couldn't seal the deal thus flushing all team's work to dump.

Has anyone in the team moaned and pointed fngers? No, all of them and Vino were like: "yeah we worked hard, but there were some difficulties in the end, ah well, that happens".

Or on this very Giro, stage 2 or 3 (don't remember clearly) he was trying to place teammate V. Iglinsky for the final sprint. Iglinsky-junior couldn't make it as we all know, but still.

Does that sound like "selfish" to you?
________
SC REPLAYSS

 

[python]

I'm sorry if I plugged into any insecurity you might have about your **** size. That was the farthest thing from my mind. It's okay if you don't know much about cycling--doesn't matter at all to me--but if you're going to make sweeping claims about a rider's career, it doesn't seem out of line to ask you to know something about that rider's career.

As for the 2007 Tour--are you really going to hold "Mr. Freibrug Clinic" Kloden up as a model of cleanliness? Really? The whole Telekom/T-Mobile squad was doped to the eyebrows. If we're going to bring the who was doped and who wasn't thing into the equation, then everything dissolves into meaninglessness. It's obvious that everyone on the team was doped. And are still doping. That's a completely different matter.

And in the 2007 Tour, Kloden was, as he always is, entirely willing to sacrifice his chances for the team leader, who was Vino. I don't know why, but Kloden seems to have no desire at all to win GTs (look at his current place of employment).

+1

beautiful schooling.

 

[markene2]

For those refering to him beeing a selfish rider at the 2005 tdf are wrong. There was 3 leaders at the Tour, Kloden, Ulle and Vino. They said that before the race. Vino lost a massive amount of time at the first mountain stage. And the stages after he went in breakaways. I dont see that as selfish rider.

At the 2007 tour he was the leader, he was capable of wining if he did not crash. He won the Vuelta the year before, Kloden was a domestique, but somthing i agree on is this. After he lost so much time in the mountains they could have riden for Kash, he was well placed in the GC.

It will be interesting to see how he would do in this Giro, i think a podium place is ideal. I highly doubt that he will win, but a podium place is absoulutly possible. And he said about the tour this year. That if it does not intefer with Contador he would try to win a stage. The rest of the time he would help Contador to win a stage.

Sorry for my poor english!

 

[offbyone]

I'm sorry if I plugged into any insecurity you might have about your **** size. That was the farthest thing from my mind. It's okay if you don't know much about cycling--doesn't matter at all to me--but if you're going to make sweeping claims about a rider's career, it doesn't seem out of line to ask you to know something about that rider's career.

As for the 2007 Tour--are you really going to hold "Mr. Freibrug Clinic" Kloden up as a model of cleanliness? Really? The whole Telekom/T-Mobile squad was doped to the eyebrows. If we're going to bring the who was doped and who wasn't thing into the equation, then everything dissolves into meaninglessness. It's obvious that everyone on the team was doped. And are still doping. That's a completely different matter.

And in the 2007 Tour, Kloden was, as he always is, entirely willing to sacrifice his chances for the team leader, who was Vino. I don't know why, but Kloden seems to have no desire at all to win GTs (look at his current place of employment).

I like to stick with doping cases where a conviction occurred. Surely I wouldn't be surprised if every professional rider in the peloton doped at some point in their career, but it is pointless making allegations without convictions. Even if kloden was doping with the telekom squad, that was supposably in the past at this point. Nevertheless, Vino took it to a whole new level during the 2007 tour. He tainted that tour and hurt his teammates.

Anyways, I stand by my opinion that vino is a selfish rider, I have seen enough of him to firmly establish this view. But you have a right to your own opinion So I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

[Race Radio]

I like to stick with doping cases where a conviction occurred. Surely I wouldn't be surprised if every professional rider in the peloton doped at some point in their career, but it is pointless making allegations without convictions. Even if kloden was doping with the telekom squad, that was supposably in the past at this point. Nevertheless, Vino took it to a whole new level during the 2007 tour. He tainted that tour and hurt his teammates.

Anyways, I stand by my opinion that vino is a selfish rider, I have seen enough of him to firmly establish this view. But you have a right to your own opinion So I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

You should read the Fribourg report. It is clear that Kloden doped. It is also clear that when he and Vino moved to Astana they brought with them Andreas Blum, one of the doctors that administered the Telekom doping program. Of course this was just for vitamins and aspirin.

 

[Glockers]

time will tell but vino, max iglinsky (valentin is not a par) fofonov and gryvko (if he’s recovered from the giro) would qualify for most tour teams. gryvko is not a kazakh but dyachenko could fit. my guess is that berto would want at least 4 spaniards and the number of kazakh would be up to their performance.

i bet that max, vino and fofo along with pereiro de la fuente and noval already know they are in.

Friendly wager on Davis being on the team?

 

[Von Mises]

You should read the Fribourg report. It is clear that Kloden doped.

No, it is not clear. There is nothing against Klöden. No DNA. No blood bags. No positive test. There is just one story by Sinkewitz, the story what he changed several times.
Larger point - The Clinic is for rumours.

 

[Race Radio]

No, it is not clear. There is nothing against Klöden. No DNA. No blood bags. No positive test. There is just one story by Sinkewitz, the story what he changed several times.
Larger point - The Clinic is for rumours.

That is incorrect, Kloden's name is all over the report and it does not depend on only Sinkewitz
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,621414,00.html

The commission assumes that it was not just Sinkewitz, who later confessed, but also Kessler and Klöden who received transfusions of their own, previously stored blood on that July 2. ....

The commission members also cite as evidence of blood doping the samples Heinrich had analyzed a week later during his short trip to Freiburg. All of these samples contained extremely low levels of reticulocytes, which suggests a "high probability of earlier manipulation..... four of the seven blood samples could be traced to T-Mobile cyclists.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No, it is not clear. There is nothing against Klöden. No DNA. No blood bags. No positive test. There is just one story by Sinkewitz, the story what he changed several times.

Sinkerwitz story stopped changing when he was threathened with perjury.

Strange how rather than clear his good name Kloden opted to pay a €25,000 fine.

Larger point - The Clinic is for rumours.

And often those rumours are confirmed - as Levi Leipheimer would (rather not) agree.

 

[Von Mises]

QUOTE=Race Radio;209185]That is incorrect, Kloden's name is all over the report and it does not depend on only Sinkewitz
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,621414,00.html[/QUOTE]

No, it is not incorrect. It does depend on Sinkewitz . He is only one (or his words) who makes direct link to Köden.

And why do you write: "All of these samples contained extremely low levels of reticulocytes, which suggests a "high probability of earlier manipulation..... four of the seven blood samples could be traced to T-Mobile cyclists."

And why do you exclude this paragraph: "Of the seven samples, only four bore riders' names, one of Sinkewitz and three of unnamed riders, but these did not belong to Klöden or Kessler."
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2009/freiburg_report_may09


I am not arguing here that Köden did not dope (I assume he did), but there is no need to poison every thread with doping talks – Clinic is for this. Secondly, phrases like „it is clear“ are too irrefutable, especially when things are not so clear at all.

 

[Race Radio]

It was clear enough for Kloden to pay 25,000 Euros to make it go away. The report itself says they assume Kolden was one of the riders.

 

[BroDeal]

It was clear enough for Kloden to pay 25,000 Euros to make it go away. The report itself says they assume Kolden was one of the riders.

Don't forget his shipment of vitamins insured for 2000 DM. Those must have been some amazingly expensive vitamins.

 

[alberto.legstrong]

WTF...we have veered into a ditch

A) Is Kloden riding for Astana this year? If not, why is this thread now about Kloden? Start a new thread for Shack or Kloden. Or just STFU.

B) This belongs in the clinic. Or just STFU.

C)Are Vino's teammates doing as much ast hey can to support him at the giro?

D) Can Astana help Vino get to the podium?