ToCA top ten list

[Boeing]

I'm European and I'm dogpiling on the AToC. Not because I hate the AToC or America or American riders (some American riders can be very entertaining, although I prefer climbers and dislike defensive riders who build their gains in the TT, which rules out a lot of Anglophone riders as they often come from track backgrounds) - in the women's péloton, Mara Abbott is one of my absolute favourites.

What I'm dogpiling on is the hype. The hype may be necessary to try to sell it to people in the US, but it's absolutely preposterous and rings false at every turn. The race isn't part of the Historic calendar, which is one thing it will never be able to manage, but the hype seems to suggest that the race thinks it can bypass the whole 'building a history' thing. It thinks that by shouting loudly people will fail to notice the lack of a challenging parcours, and the depth of the péloton is like BMC - a strong veneer but ultimately lacking in top level talent beyond that top tier. If you have no history, the best way to make yourself taken seriously is by having a seriously challenging parcours - the kind that makes riders say "I want to have that on my palmarès. That race will show that I can do it at the top level". Instead they've gone for the 'don't offer it but say you did' approach.

It's not about the negative approach to cycling outside of Europe either. I'm not a fan of the globalisation of cycling mainly because it is forcing teams to race in races that are of no interest to their riders or sponsors at awkward times - QuickStep were worried that, if they had any injuries, they couldn't race the Giro, California and Belgium - and they should be allowed to race their home Tour, yes? Same goes for the new ProTour events in Canada, which will clash with the Vuelta, but also Britain and potentially Missouri too - and those three races will only really appeal to the same group of PT teams. This means more stresses placed on riders, and more required financially of sponsors, to which I say - can the sport really afford to put more stresses on its sponsors, when even absolute top teams like Saxo Bank and Caisse d'Epargne are looking at potential dissolution next year?

No, I like a lot of races outside of Europe. It's nice to see people who I don't normally get to see. The Vuelta a Colombia, for example, is one of the highlights of the season for me.

I tend to agree with you on the hype.

But you are all over the map with regards to the other stuff. What does the womens peloton have to do with all this??? What I think you are trying to say with the other stuff is it is less Romantic than European Racing. Less romantic to you. OK cool in some ways I agree but let's not try to quantify a laundry list of what you like and dislike with dogmatic statements and assumptions such as "Team Dissolution potential" Sport stressing sponsors" and putting words in teams mouths.... You might be right, it is less romantic is many respects but just say that regardless of its subjectivity. I am not sure what "hype" has to do with stretching teams thin and forcing teams to make tough decisions, or climbers vs defensive riders???? and how TOC is responsible for Corporate sponsors decision making and whatever else you are trying to say is a reach

I am a socal native. and I agree that the Hype is just over the top. My grandpappy had a saying that rings true to me in may aspects in life. "Son if you gotta tell us you are drunk all the damn time you probably aint" From the start this group has told us how great they are and in my mind it is unearned arrogance...

I don't really like the way this race has been in your face from day one telling us it is comparable to a Grand Tour and attracts the best racers, has the best terrain.... A bunch of venture capitalists who put industry ahead of the glory of the sport IMHO Just put on a good race and let time tell us what it is and isn't. If it was the best and most competitive race then Levi wouldn't have won them all

Now for my dogmatic statement to follow my own assumptions: It is more a Trek and Specialized and Road ID commercial than a race. in some respects.

 

[flicker]

Thanks flicker...that is great to hear. I really hope Boom has a great career on the road...I like his style. I am jealous that you are getting to meet and ride with them. Do you think they are enjoying their time at the ToC? I mean with all the travel, etc.

I think Hennie thinks our weather sucks here, but he has to much class to say that. I mean when we were out in the fun race it was blowing 50 degrees off the ocean. Nasty.

Yeah they are having a blast. My opinion is the Europeans think ToC is a fun race.(Vacation?) I do not know what the accomodations are for pros in Europe are but the riders here at ToC are treated as first class celebrities.

I was at the TT in Palo Alto and Betini and Boonen were warming up... they were all smiles.

I see all these stage races as showcases for the areas an advertisement as you will.

To me it is epic to hear from my sister about top tier racers training up there in Sonoma county around the tour of california. It is good recognition for cycling.

 

[flicker]

Needless to say the ToC in May will not be a vacation for any of the pros this year! I think A.Schleck has an axe to grind.

 

[Boeing]

Needless to say the ToC in May will not be a vacation for any of the pros this year! I think A.Schleck has an axe to grind.

Andy all the way

I only wish Alberto came to town to grind on LA as well.

 

[flicker]

Albertos shivering in his boots, tome del sol en la playa de espana.

 

[tgsgirl]

I tend to agree with you on the hype.
But you are all over the map with regards to the other stuff. What does the womens peloton have to do with all this???

He used Abbot to show that he doesn't have a prejudice against America or American riders just because they're American, as Abbot (an American) is probably his favourite (or one of his favourite) riders.

 

[Boeing]

He used Abbot to show that he doesn't have a prejudice against America or American riders just because they're American, as Abbot (an American) is probably his favourite (or one of his favourite) riders.

Great? I like candy in my mouth.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I tend to agree with you on the hype.

But you are all over the map with regards to the other stuff. What does the womens peloton have to do with all this???

The point I was refuting was the one being mooted, that European cycling fans have it in for anything outside of their little peninsula. Which isn't true, and the fact that Mara Abbott is a rider I like is an example of me not being against Americans or American racing, as was implied by the comment I had been replying to.

What I think you are trying to say with the other stuff is it is less Romantic than European Racing. Less romantic to you. OK cool in some ways I agree but let's not try to quantify a laundry list of what you like and dislike with dogmatic statements and assumptions such as "Team Dissolution potential" Sport stressing sponsors" and putting words in teams mouths....

No, it's not about the romance (though the tradition and history brings that). It's about the UCI strong-arming races onto the ProTour calendar that stretch teams' resources. It's tricky, because if you don't make these races compulsory, then often teams will opt out, just as they do at other races. Euskaltel are presently opting out of the Giro, for example. But if a race is unable to attract a crowd of 50% ProTour teams, why should that race be considered any more important than smaller non-ProTour races with a similar péloton makeup, such as Critérium International or the Vuelta a Castilla y León? At present, the Tour of California has a pretty decent péloton, but the route is still underwhelming. Until the race becomes challenging enough that winning it is a serious plus mark for the palmarès, it won't be seen outside the US as being anywhere near on the level that it claims to be in its marketing. Simple as that really.

You might be right, it is less romantic is many respects but just say that regardless of its subjectivity. I am not sure what "hype" has to do with stretching teams thin and forcing teams to make tough decisions, or climbers vs defensive riders???? and how TOC is responsible for Corporate sponsors decision making and whatever else you are trying to say is a reach

I never said that the AToC was responsible for that, but it is an example of it - the organisers point at the startlist as evidence of the prestige of the race, but I'd rather watch second tier performers giving their all than top tier performers rolling around in the péloton every day (hence why I'll always prefer, say, the Vuelta a Burgos to the Tour Down Under), and very few riders have said that they're targeting this race. And it's a bit misleading to point to the startlist as evidence of the race's prestige when one of the key stars - Cavendish - is on record as stating he doesn't want to be there and would rather be at the Giro. It sends a contradictory message.

Now, as regards cycling in general, I am pining for the romance of it, sure. But that's not just an American thing (though the USPS template certainly hasn't helped). Sky are more responsible than anybody else for that, and they won't be at the Tour of California. Why? Because they'll be at the Giro, and at several races in Europe, which are of lower status than California, and pretty much deservedly so (eg Picardie, Bavaria). Why? Because there's only so many races you can do at one time, and the cost of travelling to California when your A-team is at the Giro and you have a few injuries, makes it a difficult one to assess whether it's worth it. Next year, of course, there won't be a choice in the matter. They've got to go to California.

I don't really like the way this race has been in your face from day one telling us it is comparable to a Grand Tour and attracts the best racers, has the best terrain.... A bunch of venture capitalists who put industry ahead of the glory of the sport IMHO Just put on a good race and let time tell us what it is and isn't. If it was the best and most competitive race then Levi wouldn't have won them all

Now for my dogmatic statement to follow my own assumptions: It is more a Trek and Specialized and Road ID commercial than a race. in some respects.

That's it. If they get what they have here, half ProTour, half Continental péloton, and then they shut the hell up about being a Grand Tour and just get on with providing a good and challenging race, then the prestige will come with that (just look at Eroica for an Old World example). California is already in a strong position with the increase in the number of Anglophone teams and with a couple of sponsors with big interests over there eg Rabobank. A race should grow naturally, the prestige should come from the riders and teams, not from the marketing and the sponsors. And most importantly, don't chump-change the fans on what you're offering them. They're more likely to desert if they think they're being taken for fools.

 

[flicker]

At present, the Tour of California has a pretty decent péloton, but the route is still underwhelming. Until the race becomes challenging enough that winning it is a serious plus mark for the palmarès, it won't be seen outside the US as being anywhere near on the level that it claims to be in its marketing. Simple as that really.

The riders make the race hard. I was at Bonny Doon at Pine Flat summit last year and Levi wasn't soft pedaling. Neither were the dribs and drabs of racers strung out across 40 minutes. A misrable hard day of racing no TV because fog and rain, no copters. Were Botero and Sevilla soft pedalling into Santa Rosa last year?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I don't know, nobody was paying attention this side of the Atlantic. I'm sure the racers were racing hard. But they were racing hard in that horrible day in the Volta ao Algarve that Greipel won by 4" on the uphill sprint, as that photo of him showed. Doesn't make it a prestigious event, or one that riders are going out of their way to make sure they have on their palmarès.

The parcours is still not exciting, and if it's up to the riders to make the race hard, I'd like to hear more people actually actively saying they're interested in making a race of it.

 

[peloton]

The problem that I have with ToC is the new date. It was great as the "big" season opener in February, but now when it's at the same time as my favorite GT, I really couldn't care less about it.
No matter how much people try to hype it up, it will never, ever be on par with the Giro.
Too bad really, I really enjoyed watching it the past three years.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

With this field and this route, the race is on the same level as the Tour of Poland or the ENECO Tour in my opinion. I can't make more of it.
There were a few editions since it started that were interesting, due to it being in february. The move didn't make it better, but worse

 

[flicker]

I don't know, nobody was paying attention this side of the Atlantic. I'm sure the racers were racing hard. But they were racing hard in that horrible day in the Volta ao Algarve that Greipel won by 4" on the uphill sprint, as that photo of him showed. Doesn't make it a prestigious event, or one that riders are going out of their way to make sure they have on their palmarès.

The parcours is still not exciting, and if it's up to the riders to make the race hard, I'd like to hear more people actually actively saying they're interested in making a race of it.

Dang Libertine, you on other side of the pond? What are you doing up so late blogging? Do you work at the controls of a nuclear power plant and blog while slurping an icy cold one?

We are just having fun over here in California in our provincial manner.

We have great courses but they are way out in the middle of nowhere.

They are to far out there for fans to get to. Plus the really high mountains are full of snow. Slushy. Plus we in Califonia do not know jack about cycling.

 

[flicker]

Oh by the way, who are Griepel and Cav. going to be riding for in 2011 Obi-Juan
Kenobi?

 

[jaylew]

That's it. If they get what they have here, half ProTour, half Continental péloton,

Pretty much what they have now:

Quick Step
Rabobank
Columbia
Garmin
Liquigas
Radio Shack
Saxo Bank
Cervélo*
BMC*

vs.

Bissel
Fly V
Jelly Belly
Kelly
Spidertech
Type 1
Maxxis

That's 9 to 7, big teams v. small. Ok, BMC and Cérvelo aren't Pro Tour yet but even if you put BMC with the smaller domestics (which judging by their sans Evans results, we probably should) that's 8 and 8. Cérvelo certainly has a stronger team than several PT teams so they stay.

Agree about the hype, but sadly I think it has something to do with the American mentality. For some reason, as a country we have a tendency to feel like we always have to be the biggest and best.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Dang Libertine, you on other side of the pond? What are you doing up so late blogging? Do you work at the controls of a nuclear power plant and blog while slurping an icy cold one?

We are just having fun over here in California in our provincial manner.

We have great courses but they are way out in the middle of nowhere.

They are to far out there for fans to get to. Plus the really high mountains are full of snow. Slushy. Plus we in Califonia do not know jack about cycling.

Damn man, you should know by now that we like our beer warm and with some kind of taste. Not that I care since I'd rather have a whisky anyway.

I did say you're kind of in a tough place, in that you need to market the race to the people and to the péloton, and in order to create the race the organisers are trying to claim they're making, they have to make it challenging, but that entails moving off the beaten track away from the easily accessible areas. Which makes it harder to market the race to the people. But as has been said before, this race is turning out more an extended advert than anything else. Which is both a shame as it could be so much more, and perhaps in the future will, and because it is so indicative of what happens when ad men get hold of the sport, and of course because, like in Britain, the sport isn't entrenched in the culture, fewer concessions to tradition are obligatory, and so the corporate side of it is more evident than in most other races.

 

[flicker]

Damn man, you should know by now that we like our beer warm and with some kind of taste. Not that I care since I'd rather have a whisky anyway.

I did say you're kind of in a tough place, in that you need to market the race to the people and to the péloton, and in order to create the race the organisers are trying to claim they're making, they have to make it challenging, but that entails moving off the beaten track away from the easily accessible areas. Which makes it harder to market the race to the people. But as has been said before, this race is turning out more an extended advert than anything else. Which is both a shame as it could be so much more, and perhaps in the future will, and because it is so indicative of what happens when ad men get hold of the sport, and of course because, like in Britain, the sport isn't entrenched in the culture, fewer concessions to tradition are obligatory, and so the corporate side of it is more evident than in most other races.

I do not know what is real in cycling, sport nor world politics anymore.

I do not but a large proportion of Americans live a culture of malls, strip malls, work, freeway, ticky tacky suburban housing tracks, i-phones, chinese junk,text messaging. Kalifornia as Arnold says, Welcome.

The above is why I appreciate European culture, things more refined than myself, art, culture European sports.

Someway somehow I hope we as a culture in America come around, including our cyclesport. I see the Americans on our club rides. I cannot teach them they already know to much about cycling with their 5k bikes.

Best thing I think is to get a bunch of kids going on aluminum bikes with shimano105 and let them go have some fun. The bikes will teach them.

I agree with you about the Amgen by the way. Sorry about the teasing. Flicker

 

[karlboss]

With this field and this route, the race is on the same level as the Tour of Poland or the ENECO Tour in my opinion. I can't make more of it.
There were a few editions since it started that were interesting, due to it being in february. The move didn't make it better, but worse

i think its more about that riders than the route, if it wasn't then the Giro would hold more prestige than the tour.

Poland

1. BALLAN Alessandro LAM 28h46'13" 240
2. MORENO FERNANDEZ Daniel GCE 10" 180
3. BOASSON HAGEN Edvald THR 11" 145
4. WEENING Pieter RAB 12" 132
5. REDA Francesco QST 16" 120
6. RUTKIEWICZ Marek DHL 16" 108
7. SZMYD Sylwester LIQ 16" 96
8. MARCATO Marco VAC 23" 85
9. LASTRAS GARCIA Pablo GCE 26" 74
10. GAVAZZI Francesco

California

1. LEIPHEIMER Levi AST 31h28'21" 160
2. ZABRISKIE David GRM 36" 120
3. ROGERS Michael THR 45" 98
4. VOIGT Jens SAX 01'10" 88
5. LÖFKVIST Thomas THR 01'29" 80
6. NIBALI Vincenzo LIQ 01'37" 72
7. ARMSTRONG Lance AST 01'46" 64
8. GESINK Robert RAB 01'54" 56
9. DANIELSON Tom GRM 02'24" 48
10. RUBIERA VIGIL Jose Luis

I'd have to give that to California.

Let's be real, this isn't the 2nd or 4th biggest race of the year. It is the biggest english speaking race and in the USA, so gets plenty of english speaking media attention. I consider there are 3 strong teams ready to race, being the 3 american teams. All the others would like to pick up a stage but don't really care. (Saxo is strong, but i don't think they care) Most names are here for racing miles and if they get a result great, but who really tapers for this and makes it a season goal? The organisers wanted names so tried for the biggest race that wasn't the Giro as Tour prep. I think they've got it.

The course will fail to deliver great racing. It's set up for ITT and defend...maybe next year. The feedback out of this year will be intereting.

In terms of what it rates alongside...Vuelta a Castilla y Leon, Settimana Coppi e Bartali, I don't know somewhere there.

 

[dolophonic]

The problem that I have with ToC is the new date. It was great as the "big" season opener in February, but now when it's at the same time as my favorite GT, I really couldn't care less about it.
No matter how much people try to hype it up, it will never, ever be on par with the Giro.
Too bad really, I really enjoyed watching it the past three years.

+1 .. There are no Dolomites in the TOC... fogettaboutit.

 

[issoisso]

Let's be real, this isn't the 2nd or 4th biggest race of the year. It is the biggest english speaking race

Tour Down Under

 

[karlboss]

Tour Down Under

On a par. Depends on how you measure it, to back me up lets go with exposure, I'll give you UCI points.

 

[issoisso]

On a par. Depends on how you measure it, to back me up lets go with exposure, I'll give you UCI points.

I was thinking of a better field

As for exposure, the TDU is on TV here. California isn't.

 

[karlboss]

I was thinking of a better field

As for exposure, the TDU is on TV here. California isn't.

I live in Australia and can get the ToC live but not TDU...what does that say?

 

[issoisso]

I live in Australia and can get the ToC live but not TDU...what does that say?

That australian TV doesn't make much sense?

 

[karlboss]

That australian TV doesn't make much sense?

Amongst other things.

Better field? How are you basing it? I think we need some sort of cycling quotient basis.