Todays idiot masters fattie doper

[oldcrank]

I said in my post that subtle doesn't work in the clinic and you've proven me right.

I agree that it was unethical and wrong.

I also repeat that it was not against the IOC rules at that time. That doesn't mean it was right or that it was not unethical. But it wasn't against the rules.

I'm wasting my breath but what I'm about to write does not mean that I equate the 1984 blood doping with what I'm about to say.

Having said that many people felt that Lemond winning the Tour in '89 with aero bars was cheap and unethical. Lots of teams probably felt the same way about the US Olympic team and their disk wheels and "funny bikes" in the '84 Olympics too. Neither was against the rules, but there was talk about it not being fair. Francesco Moser taking the hour record with his disk wheels, etc.

Of course pushing the limits on equipment is nothing like infusing the blood of a realtive. I condemn the what they did, but it wasn't against the rules at that time.

What I thought was particularly cheap, but perhaps not unethical,
was Éddy B's totally ridiculously and over the top delaying tactics
at the start of all the track races making the opponents wait on
their bikes while Éddy B would do an exaggerated mime routine
that always ended with him on his hands and knees closely
examining the track under the back wheel of his riders bikes.
Too bad he never checked Dave Grylls' toe strap in the team
pursuit, but that apparently wasn't part of his mime routine.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I also repeat that it was not against the IOC rules at that time. That doesn't mean it was right or that it was not unethical. But it wasn't against the rules.

That is the hard-stop position that a few use... When they get caught....

Francesco Moser taking the hour record with his disk wheels, etc.

It wasn't the bike. Moser was never tested positive. Here's the quote from Wikipedia One of Ferrari's earliest successes was coaching Francesco Moser Separately at wikipedia: he admitted blood doping to prepare for the attempt, helped by sports doctor Francesco Conconi. Such doping had not been declared illegal at the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

Mr. "it's as safe as orange juice" was best pals with Luigi Cecchini. He matriculated a TdF winner too. Thanks EPO! I recall Chechini and Ferrari show up as authors on Conconi's research.

 

[Catwhoorg]

This might help make the distinction.

The 1984 blood infusions would be described best as being in section D (in most people's opinion), since at the time there wasn't a lot in the way of anti-doping code and it was probably not illegal.

(Snipped a bit)

That's a good diagram.
I have little doubt the modern pro-cyclist is typically doing a whole lot of area D and maybe some G, with a few exceptions.

As an example OOC use of corticosteroids plus stimulants for fat burning.

Would not be allowed IC, but OOC its not against the WADA code.

It wouldn't be 'clean' by a lot of peoples gut check though.

 

[TomasC]

... I recall Chechini and Ferrari show up as authors on Conconi's research.

No wonder, they were his assistants at Ferrara University.

 

[Oldman]

I said in my post that subtle doesn't work in the clinic and you've proven me right.

I agree that it was unethical and wrong.

I also repeat that it was not against the IOC rules at that time. That doesn't mean it was right or that it was not unethical. But it wasn't against the rules.

I'm wasting my breath but what I'm about to write does not mean that I equate the 1984 blood doping with what I'm about to say.

Having said that many people felt that Lemond winning the Tour in '89 with aero bars was cheap and unethical. Lots of teams probably felt the same way about the US Olympic team and their disk wheels and "funny bikes" in the '84 Olympics too. Neither was against the rules, but there was talk about it not being fair. Francesco Moser taking the hour record with his disk wheels, etc.

Of course pushing the limits on equipment is nothing like infusing the blood of a realtive. I condemn the what they did, but it wasn't against the rules at that time.

The difference with Lemond was...everyone else tried the bars out that cared including Fignon. Larry's hubris extended to not even wearing an aero helmet on the final TT so that his fading blonde locks could flow on camera. Forget the aero bars; that decision cost him the race by itself.
Likewise for the '84 Olympics. Everyone could up their game and disk wheels weren't a secret.

 

[TrackCynic]

I said in my post that subtle doesn't work in the clinic and you've proven me right.

I agree that it was unethical and wrong.

I also repeat that it was not against the IOC rules at that time. That doesn't mean it was right or that it was not unethical. But it wasn't against the rules.

I'm wasting my breath but what I'm about to write does not mean that I equate the 1984 blood doping with what I'm about to say.

Having said that many people felt that Lemond winning the Tour in '89 with aero bars was cheap and unethical. Lots of teams probably felt the same way about the US Olympic team and their disk wheels and "funny bikes" in the '84 Olympics too. Neither was against the rules, but there was talk about it not being fair. Francesco Moser taking the hour record with his disk wheels, etc.

Of course pushing the limits on equipment is nothing like infusing the blood of a realtive. I condemn the what they did, but it wasn't against the rules at that time.

There are many paths to the unethical and illegal. When I see 13 yr old juniors with $5000 wheel sets, for instance, I shudder because I worry that they/their parents will be prepared to do almost anything to win. When I see youth development teams aping Pros (in fashion, equipment, behavior, attitude) I also get the chills as we know past Pros are not the best role models in the world - what will they ape next? Cycling is no ways unique in this manner - especially in the US where we emphasize size and power over most everything else for football, baseball and basketball, I'd just rather we didn't go down that path.

 

[DirtyWorks]

There are many paths to the unethical and illegal. When I see 13 yr old juniors with $5000 wheel sets, for instance, I shudder because I worry that they/their parents will be prepared to do almost anything to win.

Compared to $5000 wheels, a coach and doping is pretty cheap. Which only accelerates/eases choosing doping as the next upgrade.

This gets back to how the federation and to some extent the IOC has chosen to structure sport. It invites the doping.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

DirtyWorks

Compared to $5000 wheels, a coach and doping is pretty cheap. Which only accelerates/eases choosing doping as the next upgrade.

Good observation DW.

This gets back to how the federation and to some extent the IOC has chosen to structure sport. It invites the doping.

I am not sure I follow you about how the structure invites the doping. I still think it is fame, money, a pro contract and the misguided perception that everyone else is doping, so therefore I have to as well that drives doping.

The problem is that the IOC promotes the Olympics as the ultimate test as the best indicator as to who is the best athlete in a particular sport. In cycling it is not the Olympics as much, but the ASO/UCI who promotes the TDF and other GTS as the best.

A person who wins a gold medal cycling or the TDF or some other GT or a slew of Classics can earn a huge amount of money especially in endorsements. If you are good and just can't reach the pinnacle or you are good and the others are doping and you need to dope to be competitive, the motivation to dope is ginourmous in order to win the money, get the fame and then the endorsements.

 

[zigmeister]

Compared to $5000 wheels, a coach and doping is pretty cheap. Which only accelerates/eases choosing doping as the next upgrade.

Logic fail.

I bought a new exotic sports car, after a short time, I will take it to the drag strip, put race fuel into it, and try to beat everybody else.

You make an example that because somebody can afford some expensive equipment, that a win-at-all costs disposition must exist, thus, it will be easy to then start to illegally source drugs to put into your kids body without any thought put into it.

Money is relative. You might think $5K wheels are a lot to spend, but to others with greater wealth, it might compare to a set of beat out Mavic box wheels for someone else.

Doesn't mean the guy with the box aluminum wheels isn't, or hasn't considered doping as well.

 

[zigmeister]

I empathize with your point of view. It is important to note that WADA does try to cover off this situation by making substances not specifically covered by the Prohibited List, prohibited as long as they have not been approved by a governmental regulatory health authority. Section SO of the Prohibited List is as follows,

S0. NON-APPROVED SUBSTANCES
Any pharmacological substance which is not addressed by any of the subsequent sections of the List and with no current approval by any governmental regulatory health authority for human therapeutic use (e.g drugs under pre-clinical or clinical development or discontinued, designer drugs, substances approved only for veterinary use) is prohibited at all times.

This isn't true. You can take albuterol. There is nothing listed anywhere in the WADA code that specified taking it requires a TUE, or is covered anywhere.

Yet is is allowed. Same as many things. That phrase is meaningless and arbitrary, completely vague and open to mass interpretation. Drinking water included since it isn't on the list?

 

[RobbieCanuck]

This isn't true. You can take albuterol. There is nothing listed anywhere in the WADA code that specified taking it requires a TUE, or is covered anywhere.

Yet is is allowed. Same as many things. That phrase is meaningless and arbitrary, completely vague and open to mass interpretation. Drinking water included since it isn't on the list?

Take it up with WADA and not me. Don't shoot the messenger. What I quoted from the WADA 2014 Prohibited List is accurate! So don't say what I quoted and the obvious purpose of S0 is not true! You just lost an ally! You might want to rethink how you go about arguing your point of view!

 

[DirtyWorks]

Good observation DW.



I am not sure I follow you about how the structure invites the doping. I still think it is fame, money, a pro contract and the misguided perception that everyone else is doping, so therefore I have to as well that drives doping..

The IOC has a few sports structured for a huge payout for top talent. If you can get close to an elite podium on "pan y agua," it doesn't take lots of money or skill to get an EPO/Test cycle. I know it's a problem in track and field and a huge problem in the U.S. The money below WR breaker is not good at all.

 

[Catwhoorg]

This seems like a good place to comment on this study about over prescribing of testosterone in middle aged men.

If the UK is considered to be over prescribing testosterone patches, gels etc, what does this graphic say about the US ? (beyond advertising sells)

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

There are many paths to the unethical and illegal. When I see 13 yr old juniors with $5000 wheel sets, for instance, I shudder because I worry that they/their parents will be prepared to do almost anything to win. When I see youth development teams aping Pros (in fashion, equipment, behavior, attitude) I also get the chills as we know past Pros are not the best role models in the world - what will they ape next? Cycling is no ways unique in this manner - especially in the US where we emphasize size and power over most everything else for football, baseball and basketball, I'd just rather we didn't go down that path.

You should be worried, when it is more about the reflected glory of the child on the parents. Its in hockey, skiing, cycling, tennis and almost every other sport. As a Canadian, hockey and alpine skiing are the worst, and the parents are working as hard or harder than the kids for success. When the results don't come, they start by throwing more money at it, and then they go to outside coaching, and then it starts. Seen it many many times....Jeanson is a perfect example, but there are so many others out of the public eye.

 

[Oldman]

This seems like a good place to comment on this study about over prescribing of testosterone in middle aged men.

If the UK is considered to be over prescribing testosterone patches, gels etc, what does this graphic say about the US ? (beyond advertising sells)

This is becoming more and more obvious as well. I was shopping at a mall in a generally affluent area and noticed half dozen obviously enhanced muscle-bound dudes. Not together; all were shopping separately and wore the typical muscle-tee. Two of them had the pattern acne on their neck and upper arms...none looked like an athlete other than the weight training. All were over 40. I've noticed this as some sort of fashion statement more and more.

 

[slowoldman]

This seems like a good place to comment on this study about over prescribing of testosterone in middle aged men.

If the UK is considered to be over prescribing testosterone patches, gels etc, what does this graphic say about the US ? (beyond advertising sells)

Must have done that study at a So Cal Masters crit start line........probably 35+ (read thirty five non negative)

 

[D-Queued]

Must have done that study at a So Cal Masters crit start line........probably 35+ (read thirty five non negative)

Only 35 that were non-negative?

Slow day.

Dave.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Only 35 that were non-negative?

Slow day.

Dave.

Maybe there were only 30 riders ...

 

[DirtyWorks]

This seems like a good place to comment on this study about over prescribing of testosterone in middle aged men.

If the UK is considered to be over prescribing testosterone patches, gels etc, what does this graphic say about the US ? (beyond advertising sells)

The sh!t works!!!

 

[Catwhoorg]

The sh!t works!!!

T patches/gels, or direct to consumer advertising of prescriptions drugs (US and Sweden both allow it) ?

Obviously this is a rhetorical question as the answer is both...

 

[slowoldman]

Only 35 that were non-negative?

Slow day.

Dave.

Maybe there were only 30 riders ...

Those of us in So Cal Masters Racing "lovingly" refer to the 35 plus age group as the 35 non negative...... the older group has also been referred to as Pharmafive plus (45+)......just some dark humor.

 

[D-Queued]

Those of us in So Cal Masters Racing "lovingly" refer to the 35 plus age group as the 35 non negative...... the older group has also been referred to as Pharmafive plus (45+)......just some dark humor.

I hadn't heard either, but that is very funny!!

Any code name for the double nickel group?

Dave.

 

[Oldman]

Those of us in So Cal Masters Racing "lovingly" refer to the 35 plus age group as the 35 non negative...... the older group has also been referred to as Pharmafive plus (45+)......just some dark humor.

Last race I did in SanFran had the same profile. As an out-of-towner I got plenty of elbows/hips being in "their" mix. Lot's of attitude there but probably a cross over of Southern/Northern talent. It was fast...
A former NW local was on a SF team and told his guys not to let me out of touch so I didn't get much cooperation on escapades off the front. Wouldn't have mattered as the pace was too high for even a small group to escape without a big team controlling the front.
They were very serious for Masters racers. Not a lot of friendly discussion.

 

[nslckevin]

Last race I did in SanFran had the same profile. As an out-of-towner I got plenty of elbows/hips being in "their" mix. Lot's of attitude there but probably a cross over of Southern/Northern talent. It was fast...
A former NW local was on a SF team and told his guys not to let me out of touch so I didn't get much cooperation on escapades off the front. Wouldn't have mattered as the pace was too high for even a small group to escape without a big team controlling the front.
They were very serious for Masters racers. Not a lot of friendly discussion.

What race? What field?

 

[DirtyWorks]

T patches/gels, or direct to consumer advertising of prescriptions drugs (US and Sweden both allow it) ?

Obviously this is a rhetorical question as the answer is both...

The ads in the U.S. that I have personally seen are of the late, late night variety on local networks. In print there's quite a few well-dressed ads for T/HGH "therapy." There is high demand for "you've got low T." theapy clinics.