Todays idiot masters fattie doper

[BotanyBay]

I wouldn't be too quick to discount those results. Many of those riders getting the "easy" jerseys are World Champions as well. It is not untypical to see more local representation when the venue is not near a major city.

You don't know it, but you just solidified my point. My, what a coincidence that they are also "World masters champions"

Sorta like that odd coincidence that our female soccer players usually win the world cup AND the olympics. Because in Europe (and elsewhere throught the globe) the ladies typically bow-out of the whole "sporting thing".

 

[Bertie]

You don't know it, but you just solidified my point. My, what a coincidence that they are also "World masters champions"




If your point here is that Masters in other countries are less interested in it than the US, it is not the case. In fact I would say it is the opposite for most European Masters, (especially the Italians, Australians).

Don't confuse my point though with agreeing that the jerseys at Worlds and US are softer than they should be. But the few US that have won at World Masters are pretty damn fast and it is hard to imagine they would be off the podium in any amateur race.

A finger in the air assessment would be that World Masters has fields about 4 or 5 times stronger in depth than US Masters (male 35-55 assessment).

What I'd like to see (no hope) in US and Worlds is less categories by age and proper qualification. Maybe just 5 riders allowed from each state, and 5 from each country as designated by the State and USAC. Then we'd have proper champs for Masters, you wear your state or country jersey, and any positive dope test results in the whole team disqualification. Of course pipe dream only because of funding.

 

[nslckevin]

I agree, it is a total joke. It is no suprise to me that racers test positive at Master's Nats at a higher rate than any other race. The idiots who would dope would probably also brag about their stars and stripes jerseys which were won by racing against 25 people. This year's races were more like the Northwest Championships. A quick look shows that our resident national champion here on the forum won his RR and ITT by beating exactly four riders from East of the Rocky Mountains and one from East of the Mississippi River. Not your fault, but not too impressive. It has been this way for quite some time. Nobody cares about your jerseys other than you. Do they give every entrant a medal or a certificate stating that they participated? Wouldn't suprise me if that is why half of the people go.

I had conversations with my team mates about the lack of guys from east of Texas before nationals. I don't know if it was economy, time of year, difficulty getting to Bend, or if the east coast guys are just pussies , but yeah, it was a disappointing turnout from the east coast guys. I figured, that hell I and a LOT of Nor Cal guys went to freaking Louisville three years in a row, why couldn't they come to an actual nice place?

In the end, you race the guys who show up and that's all you can do.

Kevin

 

[Oldman]

You don't know it, but you just solidified my point. My, what a coincidence that they are also "World masters champions"




If your point here is that Masters in other countries are less interested in it than the US, it is not the case. In fact I would say it is the opposite for most European Masters, (especially the Italians, Australians).

Don't confuse my point though with agreeing that the jerseys at Worlds and US are softer than they should be. But the few US that have won at World Masters are pretty damn fast and it is hard to imagine they would be off the podium in any amateur race.

A finger in the air assessment would be that World Masters has fields about 4 or 5 times stronger in depth than US Masters (male 35-55 assessment).

What I'd like to see (no hope) in US and Worlds is less categories by age and proper qualification. Maybe just 5 riders allowed from each state, and 5 from each country as designated by the State and USAC. Then we'd have proper champs for Masters, you wear your state or country jersey, and any positive dope test results in the whole team disqualification. Of course pipe dream only because of funding.

That used to be the qualification basis for all amateurs and it seemed to work. Cat 1 riders were legitimate because they had to gain points in events of proper distance and against qualified opposition. That's a good idea but the promoters almost always are marginally to negatively profitable. If they don't get local $upport via tourism venues they can't make it work. USACycling charges a cartload for officials and "certification".

 

[BotanyBay]

I agree, it is a total joke. It is no suprise to me that racers test positive at Master's Nats at a higher rate than any other race. The idiots who would dope would probably also brag about their stars and stripes jerseys which were won by racing against 25 people. This year's races were more like the Northwest Championships. A quick look shows that our resident national champion here on the forum won his RR and ITT by beating exactly four riders from East of the Rocky Mountains and one from East of the Mississippi River. Not your fault, but not too impressive. It has been this way for quite some time. Nobody cares about your jerseys other than you. Do they give every entrant a medal or a certificate stating that they participated? Wouldn't suprise me if that is why half of the people go.

Jack Byrnes:

"I didn't know they made 9th place ribbons, Focker"

 

[BotanyBay]

Fact is folks, the whole "masters championship" thing is inherently farcical and very baby-boomerish. They had their chance. They had their time.

If you didn't get to go to prom because you were either too scared (or too nerdy) to ask Sally, society doesn't owe you another opportunity.

I have an idea. Masters pro boxing. Do you think George Foreman would be supportive?

 

[spetsa]

I had conversations with my team mates about the lack of guys from east of Texas before nationals. I don't know if it was economy, time of year, difficulty getting to Bend, or if the east coast guys are just pussies , but yeah, it was a disappointing turnout from the east coast guys. I figured, that hell I and a LOT of Nor Cal guys went to freaking Louisville three years in a row, why couldn't they come to an actual nice place?

In the end, you race the guys who show up and that's all you can do.

Kevin

First, we are not pussies. I hope that was an attempt at humor. Second, the attendence at Masters Nats will continue to go down hill if the races are continually scheduled around labor day weekend. Kids are back in school, summer is over etc... racing bikes is not life for most of those who race masters. Thirdly, most people who do race masters week in and week out, DO NOT GIVE A CRAP ABOUT MASTERS NATIONALS. The strongest guys in the midwest, across most of the age categories didn't even go to Louisville when it was 3 hours away. They have better things to do with themselves than go anyplace other than their hometown and race 3 times in a 6 day period. Especially when you have to be there a couple days in advance of your first race. Again...IT MEANS NOTHING AND THEY DON"T CARE!

 

[Irish2009]

Dont agree BotonyBay, many of the riders i've meet at Masters Worlds are riders who came to the sport late, well past thier prime,or from other sports. It's brilliant to be a world champ (you can only beat those who turn up) but in saying that I do think the whole thing needs a revamp (4 riders, 3 medals is a no no).

 

[MarkvW]

Fact is folks, the whole "masters championship" thing is inherently farcical and very baby-boomerish. They had their chance. They had their time.

If you didn't get to go to prom because you were either too scared (or too nerdy) to ask Sally, society doesn't owe you another opportunity.

I have an idea. Masters pro boxing. Do you think George Foreman would be supportive?

Society doesn't OWE you another opportunity, but if you've got the cash to spend on racing, society will help you spend it! Hey, the old dudes are having fun! The kids have their whole lives ahead of them! Society doesn't owe those kids any opportunity. Let 'em go to the prom, or something!

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Limited time for road closure.

Reduced mileage for all events.

Too MANY masters events, and they cut into race mileage or event availability.

Then put up you hand to propose a change to the technical regulations instead of whining about it. Do you actually get involved in the running of the sport to effect positive change, or just lob hand grenades from the sidelines?

In my State we have to have the extra age groups because the fields would be too large otherwise for safety.

Eliminated events that always used to be there.

Which events have been eliminated because of masters?

IMO, most races events are not viable without them.

 

[BotanyBay]

Which events have been eliminated because of masters?

IMO, most races events are not viable without them.

I'm not talking about entire events. I'm talking about 14 year olds that didn't have to race against 18 year olds (back in the day). Now they must. And the 55-year-old gets his choice of... Cat4, 35+, 45+ and 55+.

 

[BotanyBay]

Dont agree BotonyBay, many of the riders i've meet at Masters Worlds are riders who came to the sport late, well past thier prime,or from other sports. It's brilliant to be a world champ (you can only beat those who turn up) but in saying that I do think the whole thing needs a revamp (4 riders, 3 medals is a no no).

Why not "Masters Pro Football" and Masters Pro Baseball? I was busy going to college and chasing skirts back in the day. I want another chance!

 

[BigChain]

Fact is folks, the whole "masters championship" thing is inherently farcical and very baby-boomerish. They had their chance. They had their time.

If you didn't get to go to prom because you were either too scared (or too nerdy) to ask Sally, society doesn't owe you another opportunity.

I have an idea. Masters pro boxing. Do you think George Foreman would be supportive?

You sound very much like you have a chip on your shoulder about something. I read somewhere that you said you were TDF standard in the good old days. Well good on you. I have spent 30 years building a business, which involved huge amounts of travel. So my chance to race has only started now. Why shouldn't I race Masters? I do club racing as well as Masters and I enjoy both. The standards are basically the same, the only difference is that with Masters you get to race with guys whose testosterone has run out. I enjoy racing against teenagers too, but I don't have much chance beating them in a sprint. I race to have fun, club or Masters level.

I certainly agree that the races are too short. A 30 minute +1 lap crit is too short. Club races tend to be longer, up to 1 hour which is much better.

Road racing is much more difficult because of the issues getting approval by council, road authorities, police etc. The Amy Gillett Gran Fondo in September in Lorne was a fantastic event raced over 110km. It would be great to have more of these types of races. More are coming, but it will take some time yet.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I'm not talking about entire events. I'm talking about 14 year olds that didn't have to race against 18 year olds (back in the day). Now they must. And the 55-year-old gets his choice of... Cat4, 35+, 45+ and 55+.

Hmmm. Here the U13s, U15s, U17s & U19s are separate categories. Different gearing restrictions as well.

Still don't see how the masters have screwed the juniors - you'll have to really provide some sound reasoning or evidence for this assertion. I suspect the fact that Dad (and Mum) might train/race is helping more juniors into the sport, not less.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Why not "Masters Pro Football" and Masters Pro Baseball? I was busy going to college and chasing skirts back in the day. I want another chance!

Their are masters age categories in most sports. Soccer & Rugby are examples. Athletics, volleyball, cricket, equestrian, rowing, squash, tennis, golf and so on it goes. Or would you rather everyone sat on their arses and got fat and unhealthy.

You have another chance. There is nothing stopping you from going back to college if you really wanted to.

 

[MarkvW]

Their are masters age categories in most sports. Soccer & Rugby are examples. Athletics, volleyball, cricket, equestrian, rowing, squash, tennis, golf and so on it goes. Or would you rather everyone sat on their arses and got fat and unhealthy.

You have another chance. There is nothing stopping you from going back to college if you really wanted to.

I think he advocates using revenue derived from masters riders to support juniors. That's a debatable and reasonable position. In support of that position, instead of arguing "help the children," he argues "masters suck." There are better ways of persuading masters that development of juniors is a worthy use of their dues . . .

 

[Anonymous]

another one
http://t.co/whvXzggM

 

[BigChain]

I think he advocates using revenue derived from masters riders to support juniors. That's a debatable and reasonable position. In support of that position, instead of arguing "help the children," he argues "masters suck." There are better ways of persuading masters that development of juniors is a worthy use of their dues . . .

There is also a certain amount of "selfishness" in participating in a sport like cycling where winter road races are 1-2 hours drive away. This takes the whole day. It's hard working long hours in business or your job, having a young family and then saying to your wife you are going to ****** off for the whole of Saturday to a RR in whoop whoop.

I suspect than my scenario is similar to a lot of other Masters. I have always wanted to race, but for the sorts of reasons I suggest above I didn't. However now my kids are 18 and 20 and my wife takes an entirely different view. I don't have carte blanche to race anywhere anytime. However if I am out riding / racing with my kids then that is acceptable since I am doing something with them as well as giving them the opportunity.

I find it really enjoyable to be out competing with my kids. It is a great thing to be able to do something like this together. I don't care whether they beat me, although there is alwasy some good old fashioned stirring. They ride with my small group of cycling mates and we have a good mix of teenagers, a few 35 year olds and 50+.

The fact that I now race Masters means that I am actually encouraging my kids to participate as well and this is supportive of Junior Cycling, Masters Cycling, Club Racing and Cycling in general.

So why shouldn't I also be able to race at Masters Level against my own age group if and when I like? It is not harming the sport. It is helping it grow and evolve.

And the competition at National Masters level is seriously good.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I think he advocates using revenue derived from masters riders to support juniors. That's a debatable and reasonable position. In support of that position, instead of arguing "help the children," he argues "masters suck." There are better ways of persuading masters that development of juniors is a worthy use of their dues . . .

The vast bulk of funds from licenses and race entry already comes from masters, and hence masters are already subsidising the other financially non-viable race categories. And I bet quite a few of the sponsors are also masters riders as well.

Name one masters rider that thinks helping juniors develop is unworthy of support?

 

[BigChain]

The vast bulk of funds from licenses and race entry already comes from masters, and hence masters are already subsidising the other financially non-viable race categories. And I bet quite a few of the sponsors are also masters riders as well.

Name one masters rider that thinks helping juniors develop is unworthy of support?

That's a really good point. My company is currently in the process of funding a National Level racing team in Australia for 2012. The aim of the team is to mentor and provide a career path for junior cyclists, with the obvious ultimate aim of them eventually achieving pro level status.

However my sponsorship dollars are not aimed at juniors. They are aimed clearly at Masters cyclists between 40-60, where there is growing participation and many Masters in this age group have high disposable income.

I also firmly believe that the type of Masters racing in Australia is going to change / evolve from what it is now, although there are many constraints. Masters cyclists who never had the opportunity to race 20-30 years ago want to do so now because they are able to and they are still competitively minded. There will be a lot better races coming. Better races than 30 minute + 1 lap crits. It's going to happen.

 

[Martin318is]

I also firmly believe that the type of Masters racing in Australia is going to change / evolve from what it is now, although there are many constraints. Masters cyclists who never had the opportunity to race 20-30 years ago want to do so now because they are able to and they are still competitively minded. There will be a lot better races coming. Better races than 30 minute + 1 lap crits. It's going to happen.

Who is doing 30min crits? I haven't entered a crit less than 55mins + 3laps in years. During the winter there is plenty of good masters road racing in Victoria too.

Rather than say, "Its going to happen" I'd suggest that its already on the way

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I should add that I am a member of one of the first dedicated/sponsored masters teams in Australia. While it's more common in the USA, it's relatively new here where clubs are the main stay but often don't race all that effectively as teams.

We also sponsor a junior in the process:

http://www.turbostudio.com.au/team.html

We've just added two new riders to our roster as well.

Our shortest races are about an hour. Local enduros are 2hrs + a lap or so.

 

[rgmerk]

Taking the fun out of it

If Masters want to race against each other, I can't see why anybody could reasonably have an objection. I've enjoyed doing a couple of vets races, but it's good to race against kids on the way up too (though they don't generally last long before getting promoted out of my grade...).

And teams are fine too, given that they can actually result in more interesting racing.

But too much money (be it sponsorship or otherwise) in Masters races would bother me. How would you feel about - for instance - former pros as hired domestiques dragging rich teammate/employers to results they could never otherwise achieve?

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

But too much money (be it sponsorship or otherwise) in Masters races would bother me. How would you feel about - for instance - former pros as hired domestiques dragging rich teammate/employers to results they could never otherwise achieve?

Actually this is exactly what happens in many European sportive type events.

In fact sometimes when there is a rider limit per team, they enter several teams for the purpose of aiding one or two riders.

 

[rgmerk]

Actually this is exactly what happens in many European sportive type events.

In fact sometimes when there is a rider limit per team, they enter several teams for the purpose of aiding one or two riders.

You're kidding me. What possible satisfaction could one possibly get from being, effectively, motorpaced?

Sorry this is offtopic for the clinic, but that's just...weird.