Todays idiot masters fattie doper

[Oldman]

It seems to me that riders that share your attitudes would be more angry at the dopers if doping messed up the quality of the race and less angry about the effect on the results of the race.

Does doping muck with the character of the race itself? How?

It can, depending on the race. Watching the disparity of performance at a tough stage race in Oregon when a group of riders from California were overachieving on each hilly stage and TT made many wonder WTF! There were more than a few that would refuse to spend the money and travel to an event with that many suspect riders.

 

[MarkvW]

It can, depending on the race. Watching the disparity of performance at a tough stage race in Oregon when a group of riders from California were overachieving on each hilly stage and TT made many wonder WTF! There were more than a few that would refuse to spend the money and travel to an event with that many suspect riders.

Was thinking more about race dynamics, but thanks.

 

[nslckevin]

It can, depending on the race. Watching the disparity of performance at a tough stage race in Oregon when a group of riders from California were overachieving on each hilly stage and TT made many wonder WTF! There were more than a few that would refuse to spend the money and travel to an event with that many suspect riders.

Again with the "guys did really good, therefore they are more likely than not on dope." What do you know about these riders? Do you know how much they train?

I have a team mate who is 56 and still races well in 35+ races. He won the RR and TT in Louisville in 2010, both the TT and RR in 2011 in the Canadian nationals, won the 2011 World TT and was 2nd in the RR. (Probably should have won, but bonked). Sound suspicious? Well, he sold his business some years ago and trains THIRTY PLUS HOURS A WEEK! His short days are FOUR HOURS LONG.

I wonder how many guys who struggle to get in 10 hours a week wonder if he's on dope as they get dropped when the reality is that they are training barely a third of what my team mate does.

Masters racing is not like pro racing for a lot of reasons (obviously), but one think that I suspect most people don't take into account is the different levels of commitment to the sport at the masters level. All of the pro's are training on a very similar level. Go to a masters race and you've got guys doing 5-8 hours a week vs. guys doing 20-30 hours a week. Not to mention the varying quality of their training.

Yes, some of those outlying performance might be due to dope, but some of them are due to a higher level of commitment.

I think that some people go too quickly to "they must be doping".

Kevin Metcalfe

 

[slowoldman]

Again with the "guys did really good, therefore they are more likely than not on dope." What do you know about these riders? Do you know how much they train?

I have a team mate who is 56 and still races well in 35+ races. He won the RR and TT in Louisville in 2010, both the TT and RR in 2011 in the Canadian nationals, won the 2011 World TT and was 2nd in the RR. (Probably should have won, but bonked). Sound suspicious? Well, he sold his business some years ago and trains THIRTY PLUS HOURS A WEEK! His short days are FOUR HOURS LONG.

I wonder how many guys who struggle to get in 10 hours a week wonder if he's on dope as they get dropped when the reality is that they are training barely a third of what my team mate does.

Masters racing is not like pro racing for a lot of reasons (obviously), but one think that I suspect most people don't take into account is the different levels of commitment to the sport at the masters level. All of the pro's are training on a very similar level. Go to a masters race and you've got guys doing 5-8 hours a week vs. guys doing 20-30 hours a week. Not to mention the varying quality of their training.

Yes, some of those outlying performance might be due to dope, but some of them are due to a higher level of commitment.

I think that some people go too quickly to "they must be doping".

Kevin Metcalfe

Sounds like maybe they should have a "pro" masters category. Some get paid to ride too, so maybe they are pros after all.....

 

[nslckevin]

Sounds like maybe they should have a "pro" masters category. Some get paid to ride too, so maybe they are pros after all.....

Master's is age. Category is commitment level. If people don't like racing against guys who are really into racing and training, then maybe they should do Master's 4/5 races to properly reflect their age and commitment levels. It is "racing" after all, not the special olympics.

 

[Oldman]

Again with the "guys did really good, therefore they are more likely than not on dope." What do you know about these riders? Do you know how much they train?
I have a team mate who is 56 and still races well in 35+ races. He won the RR and TT in Louisville in 2010, both the TT and RR in 2011 in the Canadian nationals, won the 2011 World TT and was 2nd in the RR. (Probably should have won, but bonked). Sound suspicious? Well, he sold his business some years ago and trains THIRTY PLUS HOURS A WEEK! His short days are FOUR HOURS LONG.
I wonder how many guys who struggle to get in 10 hours a week wonder if he's on dope as they get dropped when the reality is that they are training barely a third of what my team mate does.

Masters racing is not like pro racing for a lot of reasons (obviously), but one think that I suspect most people don't take into account is the different levels of commitment to the sport at the masters level. All of the pro's are training on a very similar level. Go to a masters race and you've got guys doing 5-8 hours a week vs. guys doing 20-30 hours a week. Not to mention the varying quality of their training.

Yes, some of those outlying performance might be due to dope, but some of them are due to a higher level of commitment.

I think that some people go too quickly to "they must be doping".

Kevin Metcalfe

Dude, don't know where you drew that quote but not from me. I know enough Californians and have raced against them to see a new level.

As for your teammate: sounds like Dave Zimbleman. I've raced against him and know his work ethic and pedigree. He was one of the guys getting burned by minutes. Obviously some of the guys were seriously trained and peaking and are known performers. When friends from Cal note that performances by some of their teammates were unusual I take their speculation seriously. My point was about that effect...that eventually serious riders become less interested in specific events because there is not testing and riders are cheating. I can hold my own with most any Masters field and when someone I respect as a well trained performer becomes disallusioned enough not to race it can have an impact on the event. That's what I was saying.

 

[slowoldman]

Master's is age. Category is commitment level. If people don't like racing against guys who are really into racing and training, then maybe they should do Master's 4/5 races to properly reflect their age and commitment levels. It is "racing" after all, not the special olympics.

Special olympics? Wow, nice comment. I race, I also have a job and family that come first. I train pretty hard, but it is a hobby, I don't take it too seriously. Some of you masters should get a life outside of bike racing, just to let you know it only matters to the other geeks in lycra .

Dude, don't know where you drew that quote but not from me. I know enough Californians and have raced against them to see a new level.

As for your teammate: sounds like Dave Zimbleman. I've raced against him and know his work ethic and pedigree. He was one of the guys getting burned by minutes. Obviously some of the guys were seriously trained and peaking and are known performers. When friends from Cal note that performances by some of their teammates were unusual I take their speculation seriously. My point was about that effect...that eventually serious riders become less interested in specific events because there is not testing and riders are cheating. I can hold my own with most any Masters field and when someone I respect as a well trained performer becomes disallusioned enough not to race it can have an impact on the event. That's what I was saying.

I race in So Cal, I can tell you that there are dopers here, period. Some of them are getting busted. I have been yelled at on training rides for calling people out, and then the person who yelled at me gets busted. Oldman, your friends are right, there is some fishy stuff going on. As I said earlier, this year personal issues have shown me this fun little diversion we participate in on the weekends isn't really that important. I don't lose sleep over these guys anymore. I just pity them.

 

[Oldman]

Special olympics? Wow, nice comment. I race, I also have a job and family that come first. I train pretty hard, but it is a hobby, I don't take it too seriously. Some of you masters should get a life outside of bike racing, just to let you know it only matters to the other geeks in lycra .





I race in So Cal, I can tell you that there are dopers here, period. Some of them are getting busted. I have been yelled at on training rides for calling people out, and then the person who yelled at me gets busted. Oldman, your friends are right, there is some fishy stuff going on. As I said earlier, this year personal issues have shown me this fun little diversion we participate in on the weekends isn't really that important. I don't lose sleep over these guys anymore. I just pity them.

I hear that. Dave Z dedicated a season to his effort and earned his World's jerseys. I could never guess how an amateur's inner dialogue would go if they had to cheat to beat riders like him.

 

[nslckevin]

Dude, don't know where you drew that quote but not from me. I know enough Californians and have raced against them to see a new level.

Not a quote. My impression on what I seem to be hearing a lot of on this board.

As for your teammate: sounds like Dave Zimbleman.

Nope. It's just a search away.

Kevin Metcalfe

 

[nslckevin]

I hear that. Dave Z dedicated a season to his effort and earned his World's jerseys. I could never guess how an amateur's inner dialogue would go if they had to cheat to beat riders like him.

Jersey. Singular. My team mate won the other.

Kevin Metcalfe

 

[Oldman]

Jersey. Singular. My team mate won the other.

Kevin Metcalfe

Dave's one several, counting this year.

 

[Black-Balled]

You guys all crack me up. Do any of you really think that the amounts of Methylhexanamine contained in an over the counter supplement played any real part in his result? Remember this guy just won his age group as amateur Belgian National Road Champion. Which means he actually rides his bike instead of posting about it.

He may be pharmacologically challenged when attempting to commit the banned substance list to memory, but if any of you were stalwart enough to attempt to hold his wheel in a blustering Belgian crosswind, your memories would most likely be of pain. If you'd rather spend your time waxing quixotic and ragging on an almost senior citizen who can most likely drop you at will; well be my guest. Smug is a good look for you.

I'm going for a ride.

Smug is a good look for you.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I have done a bunch of 100 mile trail running races

Y'all ultra-marathoners are crazy. A very impressive sort of crazy though.

 

[pedaling squares]

Master's is age. Category is commitment level. If people don't like racing against guys who are really into racing and training, then maybe they should do Master's 4/5 races to properly reflect their age and commitment levels. It is "racing" after all, not the special olympics.

Wow. Smug d0uchebag comment of the year, Kevin. Check out a Special Olympics event some day and see if you don't learn a whole new meaning of 'commitment'.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Yes, some of those outlying performance might be due to dope, but some of them are due to a higher level of commitment.

I think that some people go too quickly to "they must be doping".

Kevin Metcalfe

Kevin,

You are digging yourself a bigger and bigger hole, convincing no one along the way.

On a personal level, cheating is cheap and easy compared to the amount of work required to do well. On a local level, no one cares enough to do anything about it. USA Cycling is only glad you give them money to fund their search for Wonderboy 2.0. Really. They don't care about participation or having a vaguely even playing field.

I don't know what you are trying to salvage, but it's time to take cycling less seriously. Have fun riding. Enjoy the people you ride along with. But all the rest is just unimportant. Maybe it's time to do some volunteer work?

 

[nslckevin]

Kevin,

You are digging yourself a bigger and bigger hole, convincing no one along the way.

On a personal level, cheating is cheap and easy compared to the amount of work required to do well. On a local level, no one cares enough to do anything about it. USA Cycling is only glad you give them money to fund their search for Wonderboy 2.0. Really. They don't care about participation or having a vaguely even playing field.

I don't know what you are trying to salvage, but it's time to take cycling less seriously. Have fun riding. Enjoy the people you ride along with. But all the rest is just unimportant. Maybe it's time to do some volunteer work?

Not sure if it was clear, but the context of all of my comments in this thread is Masters racing.

Based on some (most?) commenters it appears to be a commonly held belief that many (most?) masters racers who win are on dope. Am I reading that correctly?

BTW, I have LOTS of fun cycling and do volunteer on occasion. Thanks for asking. I had a great 4.5 hour ride in the hills with my friends yesterday on a beautiful Indian Summer day here in the Bay Area.

Kevin Metcalfe

 

[MacRoadie]

Not sure if it was clear, but the context of all of my comments in this thread is Masters racing.

Ok, so what was the context of:

It is "racing" after all, not the special olympics.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Based on some (most?) commenters it appears to be a commonly held belief that many (most?) masters racers who win are on dope. Am I reading that correctly?

BTW, I have LOTS of fun cycling and do volunteer on occasion. Thanks for asking. I had a great 4.5 hour ride in the hills with my friends yesterday on a beautiful Indian Summer day here in the Bay Area.

Kevin Metcalfe

Your unwillingness to yield do not make your rhetoric more valid. You are attempting to win the argument by repeating a non-specific claim. No one but you is making that argument.

The point was always that some Masters are able to hold down jobs and STILL display super-human efforts similar to a full-time athlete. THAT IS THE RESULT OF DOPING.

Re-read that last paragraph carefully. I made a specific claim. Either come up with a specific response or quit.

I don't know what is so important about making your hopelessly moot point stick , but you should think about it. As MacRoadie points out, you've got some issues with competitive cycling as a mature adult. Figure them out and move on.

 

[nslckevin]

Your unwillingness to yield do not make your rhetoric more valid. You are attempting to win the argument by repeating a non-specific claim. No one but you is making that argument.

The point was always that some Masters are able to hold down jobs and STILL display super-human efforts similar to a full-time athlete. THAT IS THE RESULT OF DOPING.

Re-read that last paragraph carefully. I made a specific claim. Either come up with a specific response or quit.

I specifically refute your claim. I hold down a full time job. I broke the US National 40km record for 50-54 this year (50:17). I won the master's national TT by ~1:30. I won the master's national RR solo by 1:28. I do not dope.

Specific enough?

Feel free to peruse my 2010-2011 winter training. http://www.trainingpeaks.com/nslckevin


Kevin Metcalfe

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

The point was always that some Masters are able to hold down jobs and STILL display super-human efforts similar to a full-time athlete. THAT IS THE RESULT OF DOPING.

Re-read that last paragraph carefully. I made a specific claim. Either come up with a specific response or quit.

The power outputs of these masters riders isn't exactly at Pro Tour levels.

Can you be more specific about what you consider super-human? Pretty hard to make a specific response to such an un-specific claim.

 

[MarkvW]

I specifically refute your claim. I hold down a full time job. I broke the US National 40km record for 50-54 this year (50:17). I won the master's national TT by ~1:30. I won the master's national RR solo by 1:28. I do not dope.

Specific enough?

Feel free to peruse my 2010-2011 winter training. http://www.trainingpeaks.com/nslckevin


Kevin Metcalfe

I believe you. FWIW. On the other hand, your significant other ought to write a book about the experience!

 

[Race Radio]

When I was young I never thought that training and racing would not be the sole focus of my life. I looked down on people who were not consumed by it. Things change.

After 10 years of being very focused I dropped everything, didn't ride for 3 years. About 15 years ago I started up again, gradually got back into it, and thankfully rediscovered a love for the sport.

I decided to do some races and was shocked by what I encountered. Beyond the absurdly expensive gear that everyone was buying with money they got from their house refinance the attitude was just a joke. Arrogance does not begin to describe it. I could understand if I was off the back but I was finishing near the front and could handle a bike and read a race far better then most of the field.

Since then I have focused on having as much fun as possible. I spend a lot of time in Europe so do many GF and Sportif's every year. Doing some endurance Mtn bike races. Organized some multi day trips with buddies. Fun stuff with limited attitude and lots of suffering.

What is increasingly clear is the arrogance and entitled attitude of USCF racing is unearned. The fact is they are a minor slice of the sport that is increasingly irrelevant. The growth of the sport is not coming from a few old dudes having a mid life crisis.

 

[Oldman]

When I was young I never thought that training and racing would not be the sole focus of my life. I looked down on people who were not consumed by it. Things change.

After 10 years of being very focused I dropped everything, didn't ride for 3 years. About 15 years ago I started up again, gradually got back into it, and thankfully rediscovered a love for the sport.

I decided to do some races and was shocked by what I encountered. Beyond the absurdly expensive gear that everyone was buying with money they got from their house refinance the attitude was just a joke. Arrogance does not begin to describe it. I could understand if I was off the back but I was finishing near the front and could handle a bike and read a race far better then most of the field.

Since then I have focused on having as much fun as possible. I spend a lot of time in Europe so do many GF and Sportif's every year. Doing some endurance Mtn bike races. Organized some multi day trips with buddies. Fun stuff with limited attitude and lots of suffering.

What is increasingly clear is the arrogance and entitled attitude of USCF racing is unearned. The fact is they are a minor slice of the sport that is increasingly irrelevant. The growth of the sport is not coming from a few old dudes having a mid life crisis.

You wouldn't think that growth came from anywhere but Masters Racing when you consider what investments some guys are making. That's OK, just so they aren't cheating. Kevin is obviously passionate and proud and his racing history reflects that. His personal opinion regarding the willingness of others to take short cuts may be appropriate for his circle, but the growing number of busts and completely suspect performances by amateurs/Masters is the topic.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

The fact is they are a minor slice of the sport that is increasingly irrelevant. The growth of the sport is not coming from a few old dudes having a mid life crisis.

I can't speak for USA, but here in Australia, Masters riders represent the largest number of competitive (road, crit, track racing) and recreation oriented (club, tour and sportive type) cyclists, and have represented the largest segment of growth in the sport here, by far.

The participation rates and numbers have been growing strongly for the past 5 years.

In fact if it were not for the number of masters memberships and the race entries from masters, the State & National cycling federations bodies and many races on the calendar would be marginally, if at all, viable. It's one reason why CA has been trying for years to amalgamate the remaining unaffiliated masters organisations that still exist in some States.

Given the demographics of baby boomers in the USA and Australia wouldn't be all that different, I'd be surprised if the same were not the case in the USA.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I specifically refute your claim. I hold down a full time job. I broke the US National 40km record for 50-54 this year (50:17). I won the master's national TT by ~1:30. I won the master's national RR solo by 1:28. I do not dope.

Specific enough?

Feel free to peruse my 2010-2011 winter training. http://www.trainingpeaks.com/nslckevin


Kevin Metcalfe

Ok, I'll take you at your word. That's one at 50-54 age group. We've got doping positives as mentioned elsewhere. So, in a population of at least two national champions, we've got at least a 50% doping rate. Let's say the next 8 Masters nationals winners in any discipline are really, actually clean, that's still 10% of the population is doped. Winners are but one person. What about the others in the Winner's field? They are all clean and pure of heart? As RaceRadio points out, the Masters athletes on top of the podium at USAC bike racing are not the purest of heart.

The fundamental disagreement may be a matter of faith. You have faith many are clean, others like myself experience far worse behaviour from our fellow Man and are therefore not surprised when someone else finally fails a test.

Good for you for riding clean. I don't want to lose sight of that. But the facts and human nature are working against your belief.