Todays idiot masters fattie doper

[zigmeister]

Running a 200+ pounder off the road then making fun of him when he confronts you about it is sort of like walking into a biker bar and badmouthing Harley Davidson. Don't be surprised by the beat down.

What is interesting is how Howe has modified his story several times. He still contends that it was intentional, but everyday he speaks, a little more instigation, hearsay and drama comes out of his mouth.

Atkins has already said (nobody has denied either) that Howe made several profane comments to Atkins when questioned about getting ridden into the grass. The reply was a smart ***, instigating and profane filled response to Atkins from Howe, who says this is all fine and dandy as part of normal racing. You just makes threats to people and have profane filled screaming matches with guys. I know this stuff happens sometimes, I race myself, been there. But I don't think it is ever OK to make threats.

Then, Atkins says Howe asked him about being ready to take on 5 Kenda Team guys. Hmmmm...right there you could easily take that as a threat. What exactly does that mean? All the big/tough 5'8" 140lbs guys are going to run Atkins into the ditch? Surround him and take him out and crash him? Meet him after the finish and gang jump him? WTF does that insinuate. Atkins simply said..."bring it on".

I find it ironic that Howe who was just as wrong in this entire situation, even if he didn't ride him into the grass, how he fueled the flames, made fun of the guy, threatened to have him and 5 team mates do "take on" Atkins, quickly cries for police and makes claims of "he tried to kill me."

Yet on the other hand, bumping/contact is part of racing, but apparently not when it is him being bumped, or if he is on the bad end of the situation as he was.

Either way, I don't like contact, sometimes it happens, and I've even been threatened after accidental bumping, which almost lead to me going down, then the guy screaming he was going to take me and him into the ditch if I bump him again?!?!

So, I know, been there. People can lose their heads/minds real quick, and when two of the same kind are put together, makes for fireworks.

Good luck with this Howe...I don't see it going anywhere. Every report I read doesn't have one single fact or eye witness as to the actual event that lead to Howe going down. Nobody saw the exact situation that led to it in the stories on two websites that have covered this on the front page.

And now the latest, Howe is threatening civil legal action...wow...unbelievable kid.

 

[BotanyBay]

And now the latest, Howe is threatening civil legal action...wow...unbelievable kid.

Kid, shut up and accept the fact that one of your elders "trained" you. Take your licks and move on in life. You'll be laughed out of court.

 

[hwyrngr]

Kid, shut up and accept the fact that one of your elders "trained" you. Take your licks and move on in life. You'll be laughed out of court.

That MF'er Eddy VanGuyse. Actually one of the niced guys you'd ever meet.

 

[DirtyWorks]

And now the latest, Howe is threatening civil legal action...wow...unbelievable kid.

And Johnson/Weisel and Co. are nowhere to be seen. If this were any other league, word would get back to the athlete that he should tone down the rhetoric and get back to being an athlete. But, it's domestic cycling and USACDF doesn't care. I guess Johnson is too busy getting coffee for Weisel and his UCI buddies the Tour of Dopifornia.

+1 on Eddy VanGuyse. Very nice guy. Way before my time on a bike, so maybe when it was racing for him it was different. But that would surprise me.

 

[BotanyBay]

And Johnson/Weisel and Co. are nowhere to be seen. If this were any other league, word would get back to the athlete that he should tone down the rhetoric and get back to being an athlete. But, it's domestic cycling and USACDF doesn't care. I guess Johnson is too busy getting coffee for Weisel and his UCI buddies the Tour of Dopifornia.

+1 on Eddy VanGuyse. Very nice guy. Way before my time on a bike, so maybe when it was racing for him it was different. But that would surprise me.

I just used the photo for illustrative effect, not as a means to imply VanGuyse was a meanie.

I think the young pro was probably wronged, but these young pros need to understand basic peloton manners and be wary of the fact that they might get "schooled" someday if they don't keep their manners in check.

 

[usedtobefast]

I just used the photo for illustrative effect, not as a means to imply VanGuyse was a meanie.

I think the young pro was probably wronged, but these young pros need to understand basic peloton manners and be wary of the fact that they might get "schooled" someday if they don't keep their manners in check.

i think being a thug, is being a thug. intentionally crashing someone to "school"
them into respecting their elders is just bull sh-t. he may have had a loud mouth but so what? maturity should have said, this is racing, and if i have a problem i can let my legs to the talking...or talk after the race. you endanger everyone with that crap during the race.

 

[BotanyBay]

i think being a thug, is being a thug. intentionally crashing someone to "school"
them into respecting their elders is just bull sh-t. he may have had a loud mouth but so what? maturity should have said, this is racing, and if i have a problem i can let my legs to the talking...or talk after the race. you endanger everyone with that crap during the race.

Pros knock everyone else around with reckless disregard for anyone's safety, so why is a deliberate act so much worse than sheer recklessness? Intent?

I'm not saying the guy should have been deliberately crashed. I'm saying that eventually, with behavior like that, he'll run into the wrong guy having the wrong day. Best to race with better manners.

 

[zigmeister]

Pros knock everyone else around with reckless disregard for anyone's safety, so why is a deliberate act so much worse than sheer recklessness? Intent?

I'm not saying the guy should have been deliberately crashed. I'm saying that eventually, with behavior like that, he'll run into the wrong guy having the wrong day. Best to race with better manners.

Well, purposefully bumping elbows/hips, that is just "racing". When you have "intent" to crash them, no matter how it happened, now you are an apparent criminal, should be arrested, threatened with permanent sanctions and lawsuits.

Prove intent is the issue. Good luck with that.

 

[BotanyBay]

Well, purposefully bumping elbows/hips, that is just "racing". When you have "intent" to crash them, no matter how it happened, now you are an apparent criminal, should be arrested, threatened with permanent sanctions and lawsuits.

Prove intent is the issue. Good luck with that.

Making any contact that intentionally interferes with balance, direction, body motion is also potentially the same thing as intentionally crashing someone. Howe didn't particularly care about the masters racer's safety. He just wanted his line.

I consider the reckless disregard of safety towards a competitor to be the same thing as an intentional crashing of them, as the perpetrator really does not control the outcome. As you said, intent is very hard to prove, and it works in both directions.

 

[usedtobefast]

Pros knock everyone else around with reckless disregard for anyone's safety, so why is a deliberate act so much worse than sheer recklessness? Intent?

I'm not saying the guy should have been deliberately crashed. I'm saying that eventually, with behavior like that, he'll run into the wrong guy having the wrong day. Best to race with better manners.

having raced in some of those events way back when...,sure elbows and stuff happen.
but like you say intent.
pro sports is a rough and tumble world, but ending someones career is not a good outcome.
we see the NFL with the Saints issue recently.
adrenaline and competition don't always make you a "nice" person for sure.

 

[BotanyBay]

having raced in some of those events way back when...,sure elbows and stuff happen.
but like you say intent.
pro sports is a rough and tumble world, but ending someones career is not a good outcome.
we see the NFL with the Saints issue recently.
adrenaline and competition don't always make you a "nice" person for sure.

And what I'm saying is that since intent is so hard to prove, we're really left with "reckless disregard for the safety of others", so in the case of Howe, If I were the cop, I'd just call it "two guys involved in a contact sport, contacting".

I think the masters fattie is no less moral than Howe.

 

[MarkvW]

And what I'm saying is that since intent is so hard to prove, we're really left with "reckless disregard for the safety of others", so in the case of Howe, If I were the cop, I'd just call it "two guys involved in a contact sport, contacting".

I think the masters fattie is no less moral than Howe.

Is this kind of stuff common when old guys race with each other at the lowest levels?

 

[BotanyBay]

Is this kind of stuff common when old guys race with each other at the lowest levels?

No, usually the masters riders hide behind their age instead of racing at their category level (except for when they enter mutliple events in a single day).

 

[Race Radio]

http://cyclismas.com/2012/05/the-el...ons-and-the-potentional-for-criminal-charges/

Doesn't look good for the old guy

 

[spetsa]

http://cyclismas.com/2012/05/the-el...ons-and-the-potentional-for-criminal-charges/

Doesn't look good for the old guy

I am on the fence about criminal charges in this case, unless video clearly shows what really happened, but USAC has got to do somehting and it needs to be serious. Unfortunately I don't put much faith in them doing the right thing. In 20 years of racing, I saw this happen one time. It was in the early 2000's and there were 6 or 7 of us in a break when a prime was callled out for us. There were two teammates and one pulled a pretty shady blocking move to allow his cohort to jump away and take the cash. On the back side of the course where nobody was around, words were exchanged and and the next lap, one rider grabbed the guys bars and crashed him (just like this story). We were all so p*ssed off that we stopped at the finish line and neutralized the race, told the officials what happened and demanded that he was suspended. The race was completely stopped because we refused to get out of the roadway. The USAC officials gave us a lecture about how we were ruining the sponsors race by not racing. The irony of the whole situaton is that this guy is now a teammate of Howes, and I would have to go back and loook at the results, but I believe that he was present.

 

[BotanyBay]

I think this is a mutal combat situation. One assault (Atkins being intentionally shoved to the infield by Howe) followed by another (Atkins showing Howe how to turn his handlebars the wrong way).

We should forget the first assault simply because the guy stayed upright (and Howe might not have been as "angry")?

 

[Cloxxki]

I am on the fence about criminal charges in this case, unless video clearly shows what really happened, but USAC has got to do somehting and it needs to be serious. Unfortunately I don't put much faith in them doing the right thing. In 20 years of racing, I saw this happen one time. It was in the early 2000's and there were 6 or 7 of us in a break when a prime was callled out for us. There were two teammates and one pulled a pretty shady blocking move to allow his cohort to jump away and take the cash. On the back side of the course where nobody was around, words were exchanged and and the next lap, one rider grabbed the guys bars and crashed him (just like this story). We were all so p*ssed off that we stopped at the finish line and neutralized the race, told the officials what happened and demanded that he was suspended. The race was completely stopped because we refused to get out of the roadway. The USAC officials gave us a lecture about how we were ruining the sponsors race by not racing. The irony of the whole situaton is that this guy is now a teammate of Howes, and I would have to go back and loook at the results, but I believe that he was present.

Classic! Please do share the name as it's verifiable anyway?

 

[spetsa]

Classic! Please do share the name as it's verifiable anyway?

After a quick check of the Electric City results, the rider I am refering to was actually not present at that race. I don't want to name him, because he is a good guy and was pretty young and cocky at the time (sound familiar at all?) He did however just recently get 8th place at the Tour De Grove.

 

[131313]

I think this is a mutal combat situation.

I think you're doing everything in your power to defend an action which (if true) is pretty indefensible, based on your own biases.

One assault (Atkins being intentionally shoved to the infield by Howe) followed by another (Atkins showing Howe how to turn his handlebars the wrong way).

We should forget the first assault simply because the guy stayed upright (and Howe might not have been as "angry")?

First, you're believing that Howe caused the first incident intentionally. I've seen no real evidence of that (or any evidence that Howe was intentionally taken down). But even if he was ridden off into the grass intentionally, it still doesn't meet the standard of assault (let's not forget old dude suffered zero consequence, since he cheated and took a free lap). And by all accounts I've read, the old dude was simply trying to move up where he shouldn't have been. That's not assault, that's riding like an self-entitled idiot.

There's a big difference between "not getting out of someone's way so that can move up out of the wind" and grabbing someone's handlebars to intentionally crash him out. IF the evidence supports that's what the guy did, he should go to jail. It's actually not that complicated.

I don't know what happened, I wasn't there. What I do know is that old dude's account of events doesn't come close to matching the video, so I'm inclined to not believe his side of the story. I also think that if it's true, pulling someone down intentionally and breaking his collarbone should result in someone ending up in jail. Like I said in a previous post, there were enough guys there, amateurs and professionals alike, that the true story should come out.

 

[MarkvW]

I think you're doing everything in your power to defend an action which (if true) is pretty indefensible, based on your own biases.



First, you're believing that Howe caused the first incident intentionally. I've seen no real evidence of that (or any evidence that Howe was intentionally taken down). But even if he was ridden off into the grass intentionally, it still doesn't meet the standard of assault (let's not forget old dude suffered zero consequence, since he cheated and took a free lap). And by all accounts I've read, the old dude was simply trying to move up where he shouldn't have been. That's not assault, that's riding like an self-entitled idiot.

There's a big difference between "not getting out of someone's way so that can move up out of the wind" and grabbing someone's handlebars to intentionally crash him out. IF the evidence supports that's what the guy did, he should go to jail. It's actually not that complicated.

I don't know what happened, I wasn't there. What I do know is that old dude's account of events doesn't come close to matching the video, so I'm inclined to not believe his side of the story. I also think that if it's true, pulling someone down intentionally and breaking his collarbone should result in someone ending up in jail. Like I said in a previous post, there were enough guys there, amateurs and professionals alike, that the true story should come out.

Imagine you two guys are on the same jury deciding this case when you both have to find that a crime was committed "beyond a reasonable doubt."

Hope there are decent neutral witnesses!

 

[Elagabalus]

I think you're doing everything in your power to defend an action which (if true) is pretty indefensible, based on your own biases.



First, you're believing that Howe caused the first incident intentionally. I've seen no real evidence of that (or any evidence that Howe was intentionally taken down). But even if he was ridden off into the grass intentionally, it still doesn't meet the standard of assault (let's not forget old dude suffered zero consequence, since he cheated and took a free lap). And by all accounts I've read, the old dude was simply trying to move up where he shouldn't have been. That's not assault, that's riding like an self-entitled idiot.

There's a big difference between "not getting out of someone's way so that can move up out of the wind" and grabbing someone's handlebars to intentionally crash him out. IF the evidence supports that's what the guy did, he should go to jail. It's actually not that complicated.

I don't know what happened, I wasn't there. What I do know is that old dude's account of events doesn't come close to matching the video, so I'm inclined to not believe his side of the story. I also think that if it's true, pulling someone down intentionally and breaking his collarbone should result in someone ending up in jail. Like I said in a previous post, there were enough guys there, amateurs and professionals alike, that the true story should come out.

I guess what rankles is that the latest "It Rider of 2012" is automatically assumed to be wronged simply because.
Well ... that and the sycophancy of the cycling world to want to suck up to any star rider and allow all manner of unacceptable behavior. And let's face if "old dude" fell and broke his collarbone everyone would be saying that he deserved it because he didn't belong there.

And wasn't it nice of Velonews to publish Aktins' race results and standings as if to say "You see! He sucks! So he's definitely in the wrong!" Only later did they mention that he was a former pro. Perhaps, Atkins WAS letting his legs do the talking and if so felt that he had just as much right to be there as any other rider.

Don't get me wrong. If he grabbed someone's handlebars then he should go to jail. On that we can agree.

However, Howe DID change his story. First Atkins grabbed his bars and then later Howe said that he wasn't sure if that is indeed what happened changing his version of the story to more closely match Atkins'. So is the bar grab back on the table?

And on the other hand, Howe said he didn't run Atkins off the road. According to both stories, Atkins asked Howe if he ran him off the road so Atkins, by his own admission, didn't know who actually ran him off the road.

We shall see.

 

[MarkvW]

I guess what rankles is that the latest "It Rider of 2012" is automatically assumed to be wronged simply because.
Well ... that and the sycophancy of the cycling world to want to suck up to any star rider and allow all manner of unacceptable behavior. And let's face if "old dude" fell and broke his collarbone everyone would be saying that he deserved it because he didn't belong there.

And wasn't it nice of Velonews to publish Aktins' race results and standings as if to say "You see! He sucks! So he's definitely in the wrong!" Only later did they mention that he was a former pro. Perhaps, Atkins WAS letting his legs do the talking and if so felt that he had just as much right to be there as any other rider.

Don't get me wrong. If he grabbed someone's handlebars then he should go to jail. On that we can agree.

However, Howe DID change his story. First Atkins grabbed his bars and then later Howe said that he wasn't sure if that is indeed what happened changing his version of the story to more closely match Atkins'. So is the bar grab back on the table?

And on the other hand, Howe said he didn't run Atkins off the road. According to both stories, Atkins asked Howe if he ran him off the road so Atkins, by his own admission, didn't know who actually ran him off the road.

We shall see.

I don't think it's that complicated. If Atkins grabbed Howe's handlebars, Atkins committed a criminal act, in addition to any cycling sanction he may receive.

 

[Race Radio]

I guess what rankles is that the latest "It Rider of 2012" is automatically assumed to be wronged simply because.
Well ... that and the sycophancy of the cycling world to want to suck up to any star rider and allow all manner of unacceptable behavior. And let's face if "old dude" fell and broke his collarbone everyone would be saying that he deserved it because he didn't belong there.

And wasn't it nice of Velonews to publish Aktins' race results and standings as if to say "You see! He sucks! So he's definitely in the wrong!" Only later did they mention that he was a former pro. Perhaps, Atkins WAS letting his legs do the talking and if so felt that he had just as much right to be there as any other rider.

Don't get me wrong. If he grabbed someone's handlebars then he should go to jail. On that we can agree.

However, Howe DID change his story. First Atkins grabbed his bars and then later Howe said that he wasn't sure if that is indeed what happened changing his version of the story to more closely match Atkins'. So is the bar grab back on the table?

And on the other hand, Howe said he didn't run Atkins off the road. According to both stories, Atkins asked Howe if he ran him off the road so Atkins, by his own admission, didn't know who actually ran him off the road.

We shall see.

I have not seen Howe quoted as saying that Atkins grabbed his bars, did I miss this?

What tipped it for me was the video that clearly shows a different story from the one Atkins gave

 

[Elagabalus]

I have not seen Howe quoted as saying that Atkins grabbed his bars, did I miss this?

What tipped it for me was the video that clearly shows a different story from the one Atkins gave

Apparently, he said it on twitter as per the VN article

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...-speed-week-puts-kendas-isaac-howe-out_216880

And then later said that he wasn't sure.

 

[131313]

Imagine you two guys are on the same jury deciding this case when you both have to find that a crime was committed "beyond a reasonable doubt."

Hope there are decent neutral witnesses!

? Where haven't I been neutral? I have no idea what actually happened, which I've only said in pretty much every paragraph I've written. I'm not sure why I need to say it again. What I did say is that Atkins' account doesn't match the videotape (it doesn't, period), which raises some questions for me, and that there are enough witnesses that the truth should come out. I've seen no witness statements, and I wasn't there myself. I DON'T KNOW WHAT HAPPENED!

What I did say is that if he grabbed his handlebars, he should go to jail. Some seem to be characterizing that as "hard racing" or whatever.If he did it, it's assault, plain and simple.

What I do know is that crashes happen all of the time, so I find it hard to believe that this entire thing is completely made up. So, I'm interested to hear what the 10 guys right behind the crash have to say about it, particularly the other amateurs since they can't be accused of "defending the pro".