Tom Danielson

[Enrico Gimondi]

JV said those things before Cannondale was on board. Cannondale isnt going to let the team go away.

 

[MartinGT]

Re:

JV said those things before Cannondale was on board. Cannondale isnt going to let the team go away.

This

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

JV said those things before Cannondale was on board. Cannondale isnt going to let the team go away.

This

NY times, june 2015 article begs to differ;

That team has since evolved into Cannondale-Garmin. Early on, the team implemented a stringent doping policy that remains today. If a rider is caught doping, the whole team will be fired.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/26/sports/cycling/us-cyclists-fight-to-spread-their-message-were-clean.html?_r=2

Will be interesting to see Vaughters action on this.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Re: Re:

Quick, call Impey for some ideas. They must have workshopped a few.

Alex for the win.

Synthetic doping tests are rare by the way, very expensive and thus not done often. I say one and one is...

Not really. They did a CIR test, probably because his initial screen showed a whacky t/e ratio. Cir isn't that expensive and is used pretty often in those situations

They are rare, and expensive, simple as that. Why do you think not every urine sample is tested this way? Because it is as easy as the normal ratio test?

Uh uh.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Anybody seen any reaction form other riders on the Danielson positive? I remember half the peloton tweeting their anger at Di Luca couple years back. All keeping quite now. What a disgrace.

Hope Lance tweets later today

Lane already has https://twitter.com/lancearmstrong/with_replies

nice

I wonder if lance knows what diggers username used to be

 

[D-Queued]

TomsTestosteroneTragedy.org is awaiting your contributions for support to help TomThroughToughone.org.

Fight Tom, fight!

Dave.

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

The thing is that it's not actually possible for him to hold the hand of each rider when they go to the bathroom or tuck them into bed at night.

But crucially, this is as true now as it was everytime he 100% guaranteed everyone in his team was clean. Didn't stop him from saying it and enjoying the good PR boost from it.

 

[mrhender]

Re: Re:

JV said those things before Cannondale was on board. Cannondale isnt going to let the team go away.

This

NY times, june 2015 article begs to differ;

That team has since evolved into Cannondale-Garmin. Early on, the team implemented a stringent doping policy that remains today. If a rider is caught doping, the whole team will be fired.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/26/sports/cycling/us-cyclists-fight-to-spread-their-message-were-clean.html?_r=2

Will be interesting to see Vaughters action on this.

B-sample miracle on the way?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I think its unfair to be criticizing Jonathan Vaughters for this. As a rider he was one of the first to walk away from the institutionalized doping that was going on in the sport and then went on to try to do something constructive about it by starting the Garmin team. If the test result holds up and Danielson is confirmed to have doped, he is the one who should be taking the responsibility after blowing his second chance and taking down the rest of what the team has accomplished with him.

For the moderators can this positive test be moved into its own thread? Having a single thread for a rider like this is somewhat inefficient having to wade through posts from 2009 to find discussion about what is currently going on.

Unfair? JV is the one who made the statements that if they got 1 postiffff test he would fire the team quit the sport or that his sponsors had a 1 test and out clause. Unfair? He should have not made those big bold statements of clean.

Yeah possibly he was a bit ott when he said that. The thing is that it's not actually possible for him to hold the hand of each rider when they go to the bathroom or tuck them into bed at night. Also as far as i'm concerned anyone holding him to account for that statement and beating him across the back with it now is an honest to God a$$hole who probably has zero place being a cycling fan.

You know what? this is a major event for JV's team. They are a USA team, mostly US sponsors, so a home race like this i would have thought that JV's so called internal testing was in place before the ToU and Colorado.

Jv has said countless times he takes full responsibility for the team. Problem with the sport is that when a rider tests positive, they are cast adrift as everyone quickly cuts their ties to them. It makes it look like the rider operated alone, but the reality is they don't.

 

[snccdcno]

Re:

JV said those things before Cannondale was on board. Cannondale isnt going to let the team go away.

Whilst not quite the same as firing the whole team he said in Feb of this year that he personally will be out if any of his riders test positive, it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

JV said those things before Cannondale was on board. Cannondale isnt going to let the team go away.

This

NY times, june 2015 article begs to differ;

That team has since evolved into Cannondale-Garmin. Early on, the team implemented a stringent doping policy that remains today. If a rider is caught doping, the whole team will be fired.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/26/sports/cycling/us-cyclists-fight-to-spread-their-message-were-clean.html?_r=2

Will be interesting to see Vaughters action on this.

B-sample miracle on the way?

Wouldn't suprise me if JV found god with Tygart and a miracle happended......

 

[Enrico Gimondi]

Does JV, Slipstreams Sports or TD have enough pull to make a miracle happen? Seems like this is the perfect scenario for USADA/cycling to make a point. They can say they got a well known cyclist, but in reality JV, Slipstream and TD aren't World Tour contenders.

 

[Merckx index]

They are rare, and expensive, simple as that. Why do you think not every urine sample is tested this way? Because it is as easy as the normal ratio test?

Uh uh.

Correct. I’ll add that as we saw from Floyd’s case, the results are not always clear-cut.

You don’t win a stage race with testosterone alone. Where there is testosterone, there is generally EPO and/or blood transfusion.

Remember, Floyd denied, and I believe continues to deny, that he took synthetic testosterone for the TDF that year. There was speculation that his positive test resulted from testosterone taken prior to the Tour, and introduced to his system during the Tour by blood transfusion. The same explanation that seems most likely for Contador and CB.

Keep in mind that testosterone, like CB, is not a threshold substance. AFAIK, the high T/E ratio that constitutes the initial criterion can result from any detectable amount of testosterone, and the isotope test doesn’t even care about the amount of testosterone.

For the same reason, though, I wouldn’t yet rule out contamination of some supplement. Of all the riders who upon testing positive insisted their innocence, TD strikes me as one of the most credible. Did he really have that much to gain here? He won this race twice before, it’s not that big a deal, anyway, and he’s going to retire soon. I guess you could argue that since he was already sanctioned once, he has a dirty reputation and therefore not much to lose, either. But still doesn’t make much sense, IMO.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

You don’t win a stage race with testosterone alone. Where there is testosterone, there is generally EPO and/or blood transfusion.

Remember, Floyd denied, and I believe continues to deny, that he took synthetic testosterone for the TDF that year. There was speculation that his positive test resulted from testosterone taken prior to the Tour, and introduced to his system during the Tour by blood transfusion. The same explanation that seems most likely for Contador and CB.

Keep in mind that testosterone, like CB, is not a threshold substance. AFAIK, the high T/E ratio that constitutes the initial criterion can result from any detectable amount of testosterone, and the isotope test doesn’t even care about the amount of testosterone.

For the same reason, though, I wouldn’t yet rule out contamination of some supplement. Of all the riders who upon testing positive insisted their innocence, TD strikes me as one of the most credible. Did he really have that much to gain here? He won this race twice before, it’s not that big a deal, anyway, and he’s going to retire soon. I guess you could argue that since he was already sanctioned once, he has a dirty reputation and therefore not much to lose, either. But still doesn’t make much sense, IMO.

Have you read Steve Tilford's post about Tom Danielson. Guy would never had made it to a pro without doping.

http://stevetilford.com/2012/09/06/vaughters-outs-danielson/

If a supplement contamination then Garmin's 'internal testing' should've picked it up!

Doper caught doping, makes perfect sense.

 

[.Froomestrong.]

Failed the IQ test.

No one is going to be surprised about this, at all.

Tommy D may in fact be the dumbest person currently in the peleton. Or was, until today.

If he was glowing from a CIR, "synthetic testosterone" likely means Enanthate, or Cypionate, as these are the two that have the longest half life. Deca also has a long HL, but that is usually announced as "nandrolone" or similar in the PR's.

I personally hope that Cannondale/Slipstream/Garmin stick around.

Tommy D's ex wife has got to be smiling right about now.

And how about the guy who was on the side of the road last year at this very race, screaming at Tommy D?

 

[WildspokeJoe]

Re:

.

For the same reason, though, I wouldn’t yet rule out contamination of some supplement. Of all the riders who upon testing positive insisted their innocence, TD strikes me as one of the most credible. Did he really have that much to gain here? He won this race twice before, it’s not that big a deal, anyway, and he’s going to retire soon. I guess you could argue that since he was already sanctioned once, he has a dirty reputation and therefore not much to lose, either. But still doesn’t make much sense, IMO.

When I read this I thought of the article cyclingnews recently published by Phil Gaimon. He spoke of Tribulus because he had low t. One wonders if TD was taking something like this.

I tend to think he's guilty. I've been disappointed too many times to think otherwise.

 

[Merckx index]

Have you read Steve Tilford's post about Tom Danielson. Guy would never had made it to a pro without doping.

http://stevetilford.com/2012/09/06/vaughters-outs-danielson/

Yes, I read that before. I’m not saying I think TD can be trusted on his word alone. I’m saying I don’t think this race was worth doping for. But who knows. At his age, an eight year suspension is probably no worse than two years.

If a supplement contamination then Garmin's 'internal testing' should've picked it up!

Not necessarily. As I discussed at great length during the Contador case, supplement contamination can be very difficult to detect. In fact, the level of contamination in a supplement sufficient to account for the amount of CB in Contador’s system would have gone undetected by that Netherlands group—I can’t remember their name—that advertised themselves as a way for athletes to guarantee that their supplements were clean. That would almost certainly be possible for testosterone, too.

If a rider is taking a supplement, he doesn't just take it once, he takes a week's worth at least. So internal testing should have picked it up, but i dont really believe JV's 'internal testing' schtick.

That makes the situation worse, not better. The more supplement the athlete is taking, the lower the level of contamination necessary to result in a positive test. Or, since most batches of the supplement may be clean, the smaller the proportion of contaminated supplement necessary to result in a positive test. Also, when you have to test large numbers of supplements, you don't necessarily use the more sensitive and more expensive assays that are increasingly being used on riders.

But it's also very difficult to prove supplement contamination. If the athlete does not have the actual sample of supplement he believes was contaminated, all that can be done is to test other samples. Usually what happens in the best case scenario (for the athlete) is that the PED is detected in one of these samples, maybe not even at a level that could account for the athlete's positive. That may be enough to get a reduced suspension, though the odds clearly don't favor contamination as the explanation.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

For the moderators can this positive test be moved into its own thread? Having a single thread for a rider like this is somewhat inefficient having to wade through posts from 2009 to find discussion about what is currently going on.

There's nothing to "wade" through. The thread so far is only six pages long and all you have to do to get to the latest posts is go to the last page.

As far as I'm concerned six pages is seven pages too long for this rider. Overhyped for almost all of his career and accomplished little of note. Hanging on for grim death and looking at the Tour of Utah as the highlight of his year...puleeze.

This is just another excuse for the Vaughters haters to pile on him, that's all. In the large scheme of things, this latest "bust" is of no consequence whatsoever. Nothing but a sad end to the career of an anonymous rider.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Have you read Steve Tilford's post about Tom Danielson. Guy would never had made it to a pro without doping.

http://stevetilford.com/2012/09/06/vaughters-outs-danielson/

Yes, I read that before. I’m not saying I think TD can be trusted on his word alone. I’m saying I don’t think this race was worth doping for. But who knows. At his age, an eight year suspension is probably no worse than two years.

The ToU is a big race in USA. Where do you think TommieD's granfondo clients will be coming from? This was a big race for him and is a big race for the team it's USA sponsors.

If a supplement contamination then Garmin's 'internal testing' should've picked it up!

Not necessarily. As I discussed at great length during the Contador case, supplement contamination can be very difficult to detect. In fact, the level of contamination in a supplement sufficient to account for the amount of CB in Contador’s system would have gone undetected by that Netherlands group—I can’t remember their name—that advertised themselves as a way for athletes to guarantee that their supplements were clean. That would almost certainly be possible for testosterone, too, unless the testing used CIR, and they very likely would not, because of the expense.

If a rider is taking a supplement, he doesn't just take it once, he takes a week's worth at least. So internal testing should have picked it up, but i dont really believe JV's 'internal testing' schtick.

Also a supplement he is taking, would need to be team Doc approved? So may be there is a paper trail....

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

You don’t win a stage race with testosterone alone. Where there is testosterone, there is generally EPO and/or blood transfusion.

Remember, Floyd denied, and I believe continues to deny, that he took synthetic testosterone for the TDF that year. There was speculation that his positive test resulted from testosterone taken prior to the Tour, and introduced to his system during the Tour by blood transfusion. The same explanation that seems most likely for Contador and CB.

Keep in mind that testosterone, like CB, is not a threshold substance. AFAIK, the high T/E ratio that constitutes the initial criterion can result from any detectable amount of testosterone, and the isotope test doesn’t even care about the amount of testosterone.

For the same reason, though, I wouldn’t yet rule out contamination of some supplement. Of all the riders who upon testing positive insisted their innocence, TD strikes me as one of the most credible. Did he really have that much to gain here? He won this race twice before, it’s not that big a deal, anyway, and he’s going to retire soon. I guess you could argue that since he was already sanctioned once, he has a dirty reputation and therefore not much to lose, either. But still doesn’t make much sense, IMO.

Have you read Steve Tilford's post about Tom Danielson. Guy would never had made it to a pro without doping.

http://stevetilford.com/2012/09/06/vaughters-outs-danielson/

If a supplement contamination then Garmin's 'internal testing' should've picked it up!

Doper caught doping, makes perfect sense.

I read Tilfo's splat back then, but I'll I'll go read it again here in a minute. TD was a really good mountain biker in his early days. I remember this collegiate "kid" being really fast*. So that shows potential. He moved to the road and started doping with his college coach. I think that many/most of the doped pros DID have potential plus the mentality to accept doping. What I mean: as a pro on the dirt I finished in the 30-50s at national races most of the time=not much potential. TD was cracking the top 10=potential. I would never dope. TD was willing to dope to get into the big leagues.
*I suppose he could have already been doping when he first started getting results, but I doubt it.

 

[Enrico Gimondi]

How long does it take to get the B sample results?

 

[.Froomestrong.]

Re: Re:

[quote="Benotti69

If a rider is taking a supplement, he doesn't just take it once, he takes a week's worth at least. So internal testing should have picked it up, but i dont really believe JV's 'internal testing' schtick.

Also a supplement he is taking, would need to be team Doc approved? So may be there is a paper trail....[/quote]

Anything that would show up as supplement contamination would not be classified as "synthetic testosterone".
Further, anything that would be ingested orally would need to have the C17 molecule modified to handle first pass- otherwise it wouldnt work- and as such, would also have a very short half life. The only suitable oral steroid would be either Winstrol or Anavar, both of which clear very rapidly.

Im guessing Test Enanthate or Test Cypionate. Test Prop is a possibility, but less likely.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

Tommy D's A pos is a testament to the fact that the Garmin/Slipstream system to catch his own dopers was nothing more than a clever marketing tool.

Hey JV, you've been outed!

Do you think they test for synthetic testosterone in their internal testing?
I doubt it.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

Tommy D's A pos is a testament to the fact that the Garmin/Slipstream system to catch his own dopers was nothing more than a clever marketing tool.

Hey JV, you've been outed!

Do you think they test for synthetic testosterone in their internal testing?
I doubt it.

At the time that JV was touting his team as 'the clean team' yes I do think they were testing for it.

Maybe not now. It's more than just the slipstream sports philosophy that runs the team.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re:

How long does it take to get the B sample results?

A while.
The rider (or a representative) has the right to attend the test, so there is some logistics to go through if that's occurring.

If they waive the right to attend, then it will go faster, but still likely to be a few weeks.