Teams & Riders Tom Dumoulin discussion thread

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Re: Re:

Leinster said:
del1962 said:
Dumoulin should target TDF and if he did he would be A favourite

That is just my opinion
Fixed that for you. Until he actually wins the Tour, Tom won’t be a number 1 favorite going in to it. He has all the abilities, is the best TT rider and as good as any in the mountains, but there has to be a question about his ruthlessness (with the roles reversed would Froome have waited for Pinot and Reitenbach after Finestre?) and about his team (he’s lost his 2 most consistent domestiques from previous campaigns in Geschke and Ten Dam, and not replaced them with anything much stronger).
If he lines up with Oomen, Roche and Kelderman as domestiques. That would be pretty solid. Soren Kragh Andersen was good in the Tour last year also. They have a few young riders that will hopefully step up too.

Tom also seems to be able to do quite well on his own in the mountains. If he has the legs he can follow and even attack himself. As he has showed.

You cant really ask for more than that. Every team except Sky, are in the same position.
 
Re: Re:

Leinster said:
del1962 said:
Dumoulin should target TDF and if he did he would be A favourite

That is just my opinion
Fixed that for you. Until he actually wins the Tour, Tom won’t be a number 1 favorite going in to it. He has all the abilities, is the best TT rider and as good as any in the mountains, but there has to be a question about his ruthlessness (with the roles reversed would Froome have waited for Pinot and Reitenbach after Finestre?) and about his team (he’s lost his 2 most consistent domestiques from previous campaigns in Geschke and Ten Dam, and not replaced them with anything much stronger).
If Dumoulin led the Tour Kelderman and Oomen would be there too, which is a decent team in the mountains especially if Oomen made another step forward
 
Re: Re:

Salvarani said:
Leinster said:
del1962 said:
Dumoulin should target TDF and if he did he would be A favourite

That is just my opinion
Fixed that for you. Until he actually wins the Tour, Tom won’t be a number 1 favorite going in to it. He has all the abilities, is the best TT rider and as good as any in the mountains, but there has to be a question about his ruthlessness (with the roles reversed would Froome have waited for Pinot and Reitenbach after Finestre?) and about his team (he’s lost his 2 most consistent domestiques from previous campaigns in Geschke and Ten Dam, and not replaced them with anything much stronger).
If he lines up with Oomen, Roche and Kelderman as domestiques. That would be pretty solid. Soren Kragh Andersen was good in the Tour last year also. They have a few young riders that will hopefully step up too.

Tom also seems to be able to do quite well on his own in the mountains. If he has the legs he can follow and even attack himself. As he has showed.

You cant really ask for more than that. Every team except Sky, are in the same position.
Surely you save Kelderman for the TDF - In-form and he could get a top 5 result.
 
Re: Re:

yaco said:
Salvarani said:
Leinster said:
del1962 said:
Dumoulin should target TDF and if he did he would be A favourite

That is just my opinion
Fixed that for you. Until he actually wins the Tour, Tom won’t be a number 1 favorite going in to it. He has all the abilities, is the best TT rider and as good as any in the mountains, but there has to be a question about his ruthlessness (with the roles reversed would Froome have waited for Pinot and Reitenbach after Finestre?) and about his team (he’s lost his 2 most consistent domestiques from previous campaigns in Geschke and Ten Dam, and not replaced them with anything much stronger).
If he lines up with Oomen, Roche and Kelderman as domestiques. That would be pretty solid. Soren Kragh Andersen was good in the Tour last year also. They have a few young riders that will hopefully step up too.

Tom also seems to be able to do quite well on his own in the mountains. If he has the legs he can follow and even attack himself. As he has showed.

You cant really ask for more than that. Every team except Sky, are in the same position.
Surely you save Kelderman for the TDF - In-form and he could get a top 5 result.
Fair, but that was neither here nor there though...

But Im pretty sure only one of Oomen and Kelderman is going with Dumoulin to Giro. With Roche and maybe Soren Kragh Andersen.
 
Re: Re:

Salvarani said:
yaco said:
Salvarani said:
Leinster said:
del1962 said:
Dumoulin should target TDF and if he did he would be A favourite

That is just my opinion
Fixed that for you. Until he actually wins the Tour, Tom won’t be a number 1 favorite going in to it. He has all the abilities, is the best TT rider and as good as any in the mountains, but there has to be a question about his ruthlessness (with the roles reversed would Froome have waited for Pinot and Reitenbach after Finestre?) and about his team (he’s lost his 2 most consistent domestiques from previous campaigns in Geschke and Ten Dam, and not replaced them with anything much stronger).
If he lines up with Oomen, Roche and Kelderman as domestiques. That would be pretty solid. Soren Kragh Andersen was good in the Tour last year also. They have a few young riders that will hopefully step up too.

Tom also seems to be able to do quite well on his own in the mountains. If he has the legs he can follow and even attack himself. As he has showed.

You cant really ask for more than that. Every team except Sky, are in the same position.
Surely you save Kelderman for the TDF - In-form and he could get a top 5 result.
Fair, but that was neither here nor there though...

But Im pretty sure only one of Oomen and Kelderman is going with Dumoulin to Giro. With Roche and maybe Soren Kragh Andersen.
Kelderman should be the obvious choice on this Tour route, though I'd still never expect him to top 5. Oomen was kinda useless last year cause he was always 1 group behind Dumoulin, but if he's better this year, and I see no reason why he wouldn't be, he'd be a tremendous help.
 
Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
Salvarani said:
yaco said:
Salvarani said:
Fixed that for you. Until he actually wins the Tour, Tom won’t be a number 1 favorite going in to it. He has all the abilities, is the best TT rider and as good as any in the mountains, but there has to be a question about his ruthlessness (with the roles reversed would Froome have waited for Pinot and Reitenbach after Finestre?) and about his team (he’s lost his 2 most consistent domestiques from previous campaigns in Geschke and Ten Dam, and not replaced them with anything much stronger).
If he lines up with Oomen, Roche and Kelderman as domestiques. That would be pretty solid. Soren Kragh Andersen was good in the Tour last year also. They have a few young riders that will hopefully step up too.

Tom also seems to be able to do quite well on his own in the mountains. If he has the legs he can follow and even attack himself. As he has showed.

You cant really ask for more than that. Every team except Sky, are in the same position.
Surely you save Kelderman for the TDF - In-form and he could get a top 5 result.
Fair, but that was neither here nor there though...

But Im pretty sure only one of Oomen and Kelderman is going with Dumoulin to Giro. With Roche and maybe Soren Kragh Andersen.
Kelderman should be the obvious choice on this Tour route, though I'd still never expect him to top 5. Oomen was kinda useless last year cause he was always 1 group behind Dumoulin, but if he's better this year, and I see no reason why he wouldn't be, he'd be a tremendous help.[/quote]

I think that is were they messed up last year in Giro. If Oomen emptied himself more to stay with Tom. Instead he would drop off and then ending up not too far behind. In the group behind as you say. Oomen should have rode into red more and stayed longer with Tom (especially on that stage...) and then dropped 10-15 min, if not more, once he dropped off. Saving energy. He ended up 9th in the GC... I dont see that as a good thing lol
 
If anything, Oomen pleasantly surprised me. He was only 23 (?) during the Giro, and he did help when/where he could, and still was able to ride a nice classification for himself. Oomen isn't Bernal. There was one stage where Oomen had to do some useless work, just to be dropped a bit later, where he should have been with Tom (but wasn't because he did too much work already), when Tom had to expand the gap with Froome and close the gap on Yates. If Oomen had been there, he could have helped a great deal. But this was (i think) a teamorder and not Oomen's fault.
 
I think my point is that if you were still able to ride for a good classification yourself after being dropped... you didnt really give your all to stay with your leader for as long as you could etc. If he dropped more time and saved energy, when he dropped. He might have been able to stay there for crucial moments.

It is just a tactic aspect that I think the team should have thought of. Oomen rode great, I think the team could have used him better than what they did is what Im saying.
 
Re:

Salvarani said:
I think my point is that if you were still able to ride for a good classification yourself after being dropped... you didnt really give your all to stay with your leader for as long as you could etc. If he dropped more time and saved energy, when he dropped. He might have been able to stay there for crucial moments.

It is just a tactic aspect that I think the team should have thought of. Oomen rode great, I think the team could have used him better than what they did is what Im saying.
I can understand that. But maybe he couldn't go faster anyway. It's not because you can hang on, that you can also set the pace. Maybe if he finished 30 minutes down on one day, that he could do a bit more the next day, but even that isn't certain. But yes, there were a few instances where they could have used him better.
 
Dumbmoulin...that decision is insane: doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome. Unless he wants Giro win and Tour stages, which no longer is an option considering his achievements. Le Tour is the big prize, why not focus on it? Even if he wins Il Giro, he already won one. Then what? Get his butt kicked in July? Again?

I don't get it. I like TD but at this rate, he'll never win Le Tour. Years go by...ask Ritchie. And yea, the route isn't in his favor. So why not go Vuelta? I don't know.

That Giro-Tour idea is not a good one...my $0.02.
 
We'll see. I'm getting a vibe there's a loooot of strings pulling.



I don't expect Dumoulin to really believe he has anything to win in France after he goes all out for Giro victory.

I think sponsors will force him to ride the Tour if anything.

The same entities that made him race Hammer Series instead of Il Lombardia.
 
Re:

Red Rick said:
He should have unfinished business with La Vuelta, no?

That, and he keeps saying that not winning the Tour wouldn't break his career.
You and I know that it's a big fat lie. It's the big thing, he can win it. Unfinished business, yes, so why not say it? Instead of setting the stage for a TdF podium and excuses. He's the closest thing to Eddy in this era, he can win just about anything, not winning Le Tour...BS.
 
Dumoulin isn't the classic cycling lover. He only started loving it the more he did it, he had no notion of the history of the sport before he really got into it later.

Therefore, he doesn't value TDF like you do Tonton.Bigger change to win Giro -> Giro. It helps that he doesn't like racing in France and loves racing in Italy
 
Re:

Dekker_Tifosi said:
Dumoulin isn't the classic cycling lover. He only started loving it the more he did it, he had no notion of the history of the sport before he really got into it later.

Therefore, he doesn't value TDF like you do Tonton.Bigger change to win Giro -> Giro. It helps that he doesn't like racing in France and loves racing in Italy
Has he ever said anything directly about the Italian fall classics? I think he was planning for them last year before concluding it wasn't worth it cause of an untimely illness, but then this year he skipped them in favour of Hammer Series. Guess that might be the same thing, concluding it's way too much to ask to stretch a bit of form from the Worlds for 2 more weeks...
 
Re:

Dekker_Tifosi said:
Dumoulin isn't the classic cycling lover. He only started loving it the more he did it, he had no notion of the history of the sport before he really got into it later.

Therefore, he doesn't value TDF like you do Tonton.Bigger change to win Giro -> Giro. It helps that he doesn't like racing in France and loves racing in Italy
Well, by now he should have a clue about what a TdF win means, no? It's not like many Dutch riders have won it...and never twice. Maybe I'm completely off, but give me his skill-set, I'll win at least two Tours. Yeah. And that would make him a legend in NL, better than Cruyff...The Man. 'cause if he doesn't know what winning Tours means, his people do. Again, maybe I'm off...you'll have to convince me tho'. Because I see all these orange guys/gals on AdH, I have known a bunch of Dutch folks and still do...are they a minority. You probably know better than I do.
 
If Dumoulin wins the Giro he will be favourite to win the 2020 Tour. His climbing is underrated and with a moderate amount of TT and with Sky presumably broken up, he gets his chance. If Sky do survive then Thomas and Bernal will be his biggest threats in 2020. Mas and Roglic might also be better but Froome I don't see as a winner in 2020 wherever he is riding. Lopez and Yates will possibly be better also but Nibali and Quintana I don't see being a threat. Mid thirties is the crossroads for most GC riders even the talented ones. Quintana just doesn't convince like he did in 2013-2016. He finds it hard now to maintain gaps on his best opposition in the mountains on the hardest stages which just puts more pressure on his TT performance.
 
Re:

Koronin said:
I think in some ways Dumoulin may be as close as we'll see to Indurain. Yes I think Dumoulin can with a Tour and possibly multiple Tours.
...hence the Dumourain references.

@movingtarget, what makes you think that the '20 Tour will be friendly to him, particularly after Sky being gone, Froome being done (although he can Horner his way to glory, I wouldn't be surprised, just dismayed).

Every lost opportunity is that: a lost opportunity. Ask Quintana.
 
Dumoulin gets his max advantage thru TTs. The number of people who have dropped him consistently in the mountains are rare but as long as they are there, they can easily drop him. Froome got 3 min in one stage. Quintana, Froome and Simon Yates have dropped him consistently and gained > 30 s in a single stage. If there are no TTs to offset these losses, he cant win and possibly will finish out of the podium as well. There is the possibility of a bad day as well. If the TDF is targeted, there is no plan B to save the season with the Giro or Vuelta( tiredness factor), or Monuments (Unproven). Consider the riders who have targeted the TDF for a long time but who have not won a single GT, it is a very long list. Also he does not have a team to defend the TDF having already lost 2 GTs. The appearance money would probably be a deciding factor as well.
 
Re:

IndianCyclist said:
Dumoulin gets his max advantage thru TTs. The number of people who have dropped him consistently in the mountains are rare but as long as they are there, they can easily drop him. Froome got 3 min in one stage. Quintana, Froome and Simon Yates have dropped him consistently and gained > 30 s in a single stage. If there are no TTs to offset these losses, he cant win and possibly will finish out of the podium as well. There is the possibility of a bad day as well. If the TDF is targeted, there is no plan B to save the season with the Giro or Vuelta( tiredness factor), or Monuments (Unproven). Consider the riders who have targeted the TDF for a long time but who have not won a single GT, it is a very long list. Also he does not have a team to defend the TDF having already lost 2 GTs. The appearance money would probably be a deciding factor as well.
This is possibly the best explanation I've seen as to why have multiple goals during a season makes sense.
 

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