Teams & Riders Tom Dumoulin discussion thread

[Red Rick]

Yes, there'se a tradeoff between those distances but I don't think anyone thinks about losing weight specifically for a change of event, I think it's more a result in change of training then of specifically thinking about losing weight first and then thinking of the training needed to the event.

400m is a border event as it can be disputed by two types of runners: the ones with sprinter builds and the progression is normally from 100 to 200 to 400 as they build endurance (not great change of body weight, I did this progression and was way faster at 400m - and the other two distances - with 75kg then when I had 70) and the one with skinny builds where normally they start in lower distances and go up with age, usually when natural speed and fast twitching fibers start decaying. The training gets you there, if you train for 800m you have to put more long distance intervals (thinking of 1k or more fast repetitions more frequently - as a sprinter the most I do is about 600m at low pace in the preseason with the bulk of the work mostly in the 200m-300m zone) than if you train for 400 and if you do that at the level required you will lose top speed.

In the same event you can have runners with very low endurance for long efforts (I have a PB of 50s in 400m and can't sustain more than 5 to 8 minutes running at a pace around 4'00/km) and with high endurance (I race against guys with the same PB who can do runs of 30 or more minutes at that pace).

Interesting. I take it the 400 is still so short the main differences are still made anaerobically? Aren't the runners with the highest VO2 max like 1500m runners or so?

 

[Ricco']

Interesting. I take it the 400 is still so short the main differences are still made anaerobically? Aren't the runners with the highest VO2 max like 1500m runners or so?

I can't talk with knowledge about the VO2 max part but yes, in the 400m is mostly anaerobically. In the 800m you can still pace it somewhat and try to break it into the first 400m and the 2nd. In the 400m that doesn't happen as the crucial part are the first 200m. You need to do it very close to max speed but at the same time relaxed enough so you don't have a bonk in the end and if you start slow 9 times out of 10 you can't recover on the 2nd half, changing the pace is very difficult and negative splits are very rare (even if you start very controlled and open up the throttle on the 2nd part).

In my case, with a PB of 22.6 in the 200m, if I wanted to go for 50s in the 400m I couldn't go higher than 23.5 in the first 200m. If I was slower than that, it would be instantly a 51s or more run.

 

[Sciatic]

I can't talk with knowledge about the VO2 max part but yes, in the 400m is mostly anaerobically. In the 800m you can still pace it somewhat and try to break it into the first 400m and the 2nd. In the 400m that doesn't happen as the crucial part are the first 200m. You need to do it very close to max speed but at the same time relaxed enough so you don't have a bonk in the end and if you start slow 9 times out of 10 you can't recover on the 2nd half, changing the pace is very difficult and negative splits are very rare (even if you start very controlled and open up the throttle on the 2nd part).

In my case, with a PB of 22.6 in the 200m, if I wanted to go for 50s in the 400m I couldn't go higher than 23.5 in the first 200m. If I was slower than that, it would be instantly a 51s or more run.

22.6! Very cool!

 

[Mayomaniac]

Yes, there'se a tradeoff between those distances but I don't think anyone thinks about losing weight specifically for a change of event, I think it's more a result in change of training then of specifically thinking about losing weight first and then thinking of the training needed to the event.

400m is a border event as it can be disputed by two types of runners: the ones with sprinter builds and the progression is normally from 100 to 200 to 400 as they build endurance (not great change of body weight, I did this progression and was way faster at 400m - and the other two distances - with 75kg then when I had 70) and the one with skinny builds where normally they start in lower distances and go up with age, usually when natural speed and fast twitching fibers start decaying. The training gets you there, if you train for 800m you have to put more long distance intervals (thinking of 1k or more fast repetitions more frequently - as a sprinter the most I do is about 600m at low pace in the preseason with the bulk of the work mostly in the 200m-300m zone) than if you train for 400 and if you do that at the level required you will lose top speed.

In the same event you can have runners with very low endurance for long efforts (I have a PB of 50s in 400m and can't sustain more than 5 to 8 minutes running at a pace around 4'00/km) and with high endurance (I race against guys with the same PB who can do runs of 30 or more minutes at that pace).

I'm a bit of an armchair warrior, but to me it just seems so hard to compare mostly anaerobic efforts to aerobic efforts.
I can only talk about PE class when I got demolished in sprinting, but the longer the distance the more competitive I was, when we did laps around the Football field for 20min I was at my best. 3 of the guys in my class went to the Italian T&F NC (one 300/400m runner, one 1000/1500m runner and a 110m hurdles runner).

 

[hfer07]

I went thru some of the comments, and what folks lack to understand about Tom's mind blowing 10K at 3:15 per K pace, is the fact that Tom has to have running as a regular part of his fitness program in order to produce such outstanding performance given that 1-) running itself is a complete different sport and a quite taxing one for a Pro-Cyclist not accustomed to load bearing sports 2-) to run a 3:15 per K pace requires a whole lot of running buildup & training, equivalent to the ones that professional Runners do.

Congrats to Tom & more power to him might as well switch sports when he's one with cycling

 

[tobydawq]

2-) to run a 3:15 per K pace requires a whole lot of running buildup & training, equivalent to the ones that professional Runners do.

Why even bother typing this? Professional runners run 120-150 kms a week. Since Dumoulin is a pro cyclist, it's quite obvious that he doesn't do that.

Also, why would a 32:30 require the same running buildup as a 27:30?

 

[CyclistAbi]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1460556083865522179

View: https://twitter.com/ADSportwereld/status/1460556083865522179

 

[cantpedal]

I can't talk with knowledge about the VO2 max part but yes, in the 400m is mostly anaerobically. In the 800m you can still pace it somewhat and try to break it into the first 400m and the 2nd. In the 400m that doesn't happen as the crucial part are the first 200m. You need to do it very close to max speed but at the same time relaxed enough so you don't have a bonk in the end and if you start slow 9 times out of 10 you can't recover on the 2nd half, changing the pace is very difficult and negative splits are very rare (even if you start very controlled and open up the throttle on the 2nd part).

In my case, with a PB of 22.6 in the 200m, if I wanted to go for 50s in the 400m I couldn't go higher than 23.5 in the first 200m. If I was slower than that, it would be instantly a 51s or more run.

800 Meters: The Oddest Race

By Phil Latter Photo of David Rudisha and pursuers by Victah Sailer

www.runnersworld.com

At the top levels of the sport the 800 is usuall run with a positive split. there are exceptions

I'm a bit of an armchair warrior, but to me it just seems so hard to compare mostly anaerobic efforts to aerobic efforts.
I can only talk about PE class when I got demolished in sprinting, but the longer the distance the more competitive I was, when we did laps around the Football field for 20min I was at my best. 3 of the guys in my class went to the Italian T&F NC (one 300/400m runner, one 1000/1500m runner and a 110m hurdles runner).

https://www.runnersworld.com/races-places/a20800858/800-meters-the-oddest-race/ The 800 can be a very different challange especially at the higher levels of the sport.

 

[del1962]

The difficulty in comparing 10k to the marathon is you can run a decent 10k on relatively low milage compared to the a marathon, and you really don't want to go to deep in a Marathon as the post Marathon recovery will take a lot out of you. Which is why comparing times is of little use. Now if you are an athlete who is running 100 plus miles a week then you could compare times.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Giro 2022?

 

[Bavarianrider]

Sorry but I fail to see how a 32:20 is impressive for a world class endurance athelete.

 

[Red Rick]

Sorry but I fail to see how a 32:20 is impressive for a world class endurance athelete.

You're forgetting to praise him for getting into a sport where they have longer ITTs than in road cycling nowadays

 

[tobydawq]

Sorry but I fail to see how a 32:20 is impressive for a world class endurance athelete.

Lol.

Do you expect all bike riders to be sub 30 on a 10k?

If he runs regularly, it should of course be possible to get there but running economy is quite an important factor regarding running and I would think that most cyclists don't nurture that aspect too much during the season.

 

[RedheadDane]

Giro 2022?

Depending on the route, he might wanna have a shot at the Vuelta, what with it starting in the Netherlands. Of course, unlike with Vingegaard, it's not the first time he has a shot at starting a GT in his homecountry.

Just a shame the Giro starts in Hungary, rather than Slovenia.

 

[stonerider]

If he runs regularly, it should of course be possible to get there but running economy is quite an important factor regarding running and I would think that most cyclists don't nurture that aspect too much during the season.

His teammate Wout does some run training during the road season...doesn't appear to hurt his cycling too much.

 

[tobydawq]

His teammate Wout does some run training during the road season...doesn't appear to hurt his cycling too much.

Roglic does too (and Tom probably does as well, you can't run 32:30 without any running training at all) but that doesn't really conflict with my point.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Just a shame the Giro starts in Hungary, rather than Slovenia.

They likely have to sort out the logistics first. Starting in Nova Gorica and riding inland would end up being a logistic nightmare. That is to get the peloton to Italy till the next day. Likely better if they go from Goričko to Piran.

Someday.

 

[RedheadDane]

They likely have to sort out the logistics first. Starting in Nova Gorica and riding inland would end up being a logistic nightmare. That is to get the peloton to Italy till the next day. Likely better if they go from Goričko to Piran.

Someday.

If they can start the Giro in the Netherlands, Denmark, Ireland, Israel, and Hungary then they can start the Giro in Slovenia, which is right next to Italy.

 

[Mayomaniac]

If they can start the Giro in the Netherlands, Denmark, Ireland, Israel, and Hungary then they can start the Giro in Slovenia, which is right next to Italy.

 

[RedheadDane]

Two of the biggest, if not the two biggest GT racers of the day are Slovenians. I'd say there's plenty of reason for the Slovenian government - or whoever's in charge of those things - to spit some money into getting a GT start, and the Giro is just the most convinient.

 

[CyclistAbi]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22lISUXgSUw


This one for sure plays a big role. BUT as mentioned likely a phone call or two could sort most of it out. If lets say people on both sides would recognize the opportunity that presents itself. And if it would be known a year upfront. That there will be a Goričko to Piran stage at Giro. What would likely happen is the Slovenian duo would only do Giro that year and the rest of the peloton would go to the Tour. In a way that would be a shame as i would really like to see all the top competitors in the peloton doing a stage in Slovenia. Including Duomulin. Logistic troubles would not exist at all. As the stage would gravitate towards Italy.

P.S. Or maybe if Giro doesn't get it for Tour or Vuelta to go after it.

 

[Red Rick]

Dumoulin to race for GC in a GT in 2022. Article is paywalled tho

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

Dumoulin to race for GC in a GT in 2022. Article is paywalled tho

Interesting. With Tour ruled out for him (for GC) for obvious reasons, the one that suits him best would be Vuelta.
But given that it's very rare that someone targets the Vuelta from the start of the season, I reckon he goes to the Giro for GC with "just" top 10 ambitions and then keeps Vuelta as an option depending how everything else goes (Roglic etc.).

Giro doesn't really suit him but with an expected weak field it could turn out just fine. Outside of Carapaz many touted contenders are so volatile in terms of form during a GT (Landa, Buchmann, Yates, Lopez) he could easily surprise people.

 

[Luthor]

Dumoulin to race for GC in a GT in 2022. Article is paywalled tho

Giro/Vuelta looks plausible. I know Giro has few ITT but a podium definetly looks good.

 

[Red Rick]

Apparently in the paywalled article he says something like "Giro, Tour or both." So likely no Vuelta for Dumo