Teams & Riders Tom Dumoulin discussion thread

[JosephK]

Wow. I just got finished watching today's stage (19) on a recording. The way Tom looked at the start of the final climb, I thought he would lose three minutes for sure. I am amazed he limited the damage to around a minute to the other top GC contenders. Now it's a great Giro, with half a dozen guys within 90 seconds of the pink jersey, and the top three guys look at least as tired as the next three. I thought Quintana was going to ride off with it today -- good show by him, but not a death blow. Everyone is drained.

 

[woodburn]

Re: Re:

It's quite funny how Dumoulin seems to be getting in Nibali's and Quintana's heads. Movistar are already admitting that Quintana wasn't attempting the double ! Nibali's performance so far was about what I expected but Quintana has shocked me with his performance. To me he seemed to give up quite easily yesterday. I think it's about time that cycling discussed a salary cap. Yes it's not perfect and smart teams can still dominate as has been seen in other sports but I think it would be good especially for grand tours. Movistar so far have been the strongest team but their tactics and performance for the most part have been ineffective. They are nowhere near as good as the Astana team from a few seasons ago. If they had put Valverde in the race in the form he has been in with Quintana that would have made it much tougher for Dumoulin. But obviously they expected Quintana to ride away from everyone in the mountains especially in the final week. Anyway Nibali and Quintana have two more stages to turn it around and I'm not convinced they will. And Pinot is not out of podium contention either.

It seems to be just the opposite. It's Dumoulin who is complaining about the tactics of his rivals. He foolishly expects them to have a similar strategy and tactics when he is the one wearing the leader's jersey and as such his team should be in command of the race. Nibali and Quintana's only chance at victory is to wear Dumoulin out in the mountains. If that means making he and his team chase every threatening attacker then that is something that he should anticipate happening. The weight of the jersey is effecting him, at least in the moments immediately following the previous stage and his adrenaline combined with the stress resulted in his regretable statements to the media.

I still think Dumoulin comes out of this race a better rider win or lose. If he loses he has to admit that he has made some errors, if he wins then I think there is another GT talent on the scene which will be good for the sport but I don't think Froome is getting nervous just yet. Either Dumoulin has deliberately been running his mouth off to get to his rivals or it's the result of stress. Probably the latter considering the fact that he apologized. Geschke did very well yesterday for Dumoulin but no doubt that his team needs some additions for the mountains. Losing Kelderman didn't help. Pinot could be the real danger in the next stage because he looks the freshest rider on GC and if he draws out other riders and Dumoulin gets isolated again it's game set and match for Dumoulin unless he can recover on the descents. It will be interesting to see how much risk will be taken and how much attacking will happen. Dumoulin himself could pinch some more time at the end of the stage if he has the legs. I hope by now he has learned about positioning in the bunch when riding for GC. It's hard to see this not being an aggressive stage which isn't good news for Dumoulin because Zakarin and Pinot are hungry for the podium and not far away on time. So he has four riders to watch not two. And if he has a very hard stage trying to control attacks will his TT be blunted the next day ? It has happened plenty of times before when a good TT rider has had a mediocre final TT simply due to fatigue. This is not the stage he wanted at this time in the race and it could be chaotic and hard to control without a strong team.

The thing in Tom's favor is he is no longer in pink and doesn't have the responsibility of chasing every break. Other teams with leaders in contention will be riding to protect their chances. If Nibali goes up the road, others will chase. Same if Pinot attacks. The lone problem would be if he gets dropped all of the other four. Then he is only his own like the previous two mountain stages he lost major time.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

It's quite funny how Dumoulin seems to be getting in Nibali's and Quintana's heads. Movistar are already admitting that Quintana wasn't attempting the double ! Nibali's performance so far was about what I expected but Quintana has shocked me with his performance. To me he seemed to give up quite easily yesterday. I think it's about time that cycling discussed a salary cap. Yes it's not perfect and smart teams can still dominate as has been seen in other sports but I think it would be good especially for grand tours. Movistar so far have been the strongest team but their tactics and performance for the most part have been ineffective. They are nowhere near as good as the Astana team from a few seasons ago. If they had put Valverde in the race in the form he has been in with Quintana that would have made it much tougher for Dumoulin. But obviously they expected Quintana to ride away from everyone in the mountains especially in the final week. Anyway Nibali and Quintana have two more stages to turn it around and I'm not convinced they will. And Pinot is not out of podium contention either.

It seems to be just the opposite. It's Dumoulin who is complaining about the tactics of his rivals. He foolishly expects them to have a similar strategy and tactics when he is the one wearing the leader's jersey and as such his team should be in command of the race. Nibali and Quintana's only chance at victory is to wear Dumoulin out in the mountains. If that means making he and his team chase every threatening attacker then that is something that he should anticipate happening. The weight of the jersey is effecting him, at least in the moments immediately following the previous stage and his adrenaline combined with the stress resulted in his regretable statements to the media.

I still think Dumoulin comes out of this race a better rider win or lose. If he loses he has to admit that he has made some errors, if he wins then I think there is another GT talent on the scene which will be good for the sport but I don't think Froome is getting nervous just yet. Either Dumoulin has deliberately been running his mouth off to get to his rivals or it's the result of stress. Probably the latter considering the fact that he apologized. Geschke did very well yesterday for Dumoulin but no doubt that his team needs some additions for the mountains. Losing Kelderman didn't help. Pinot could be the real danger in the next stage because he looks the freshest rider on GC and if he draws out other riders and Dumoulin gets isolated again it's game set and match for Dumoulin unless he can recover on the descents. It will be interesting to see how much risk will be taken and how much attacking will happen. Dumoulin himself could pinch some more time at the end of the stage if he has the legs. I hope by now he has learned about positioning in the bunch when riding for GC. It's hard to see this not being an aggressive stage which isn't good news for Dumoulin because Zakarin and Pinot are hungry for the podium and not far away on time. So he has four riders to watch not two. And if he has a very hard stage trying to control attacks will his TT be blunted the next day ? It has happened plenty of times before when a good TT rider has had a mediocre final TT simply due to fatigue. This is not the stage he wanted at this time in the race and it could be chaotic and hard to control without a strong team.

The thing in Tom's favor is he is no longer in pink and doesn't have the responsibility of chasing every break. Other teams with leaders in contention will be riding to protect their chances. If Nibali goes up the road, others will chase. Same if Pinot attacks. The lone problem would be if he gets dropped all of the other four. Then he is only his own like the previous two mountain stages he lost major time.

Easier for the team but he still has to react to the attacks. It's all about how he recovers from yesterday but there are many tired bodies especially when you look at how the last climb was raced yesterday. The opportunity was there for Nibali and Quintana to kill off Dumoulin but they couldn't do it. They may not get the same opportunity if Dumoulin has his legs back.

 

[cellardoor]

Win or lose, I hope Tom at least ends up on the podium. It will be annoying if people start saying he basically hasn't improved since 2015 etc. I'm rooting for him to hold on today, but it's going to be hard.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

Win or lose, I hope Tom at least ends up on the podium. It will be annoying if people start saying he basically hasn't improved since 2015 etc. I'm rooting for him to hold on today, but it's going to be hard.

Without the toilet break he would have started today's stage as the main favorite to finish in pink in Milano, regardless of the bad day yesterday. So, he stepped up big time as a GT contender, he is a force to be reckoned with on all types of parcours and I have no doubt he will win a grand tour. In fact, I think that if he will not get dropped before Fonza he can win this. Obviously I hope not because I support another rider but chapeau Tom and good luck.

 

[Red Rick]

Apparently, Dumoulin is set to extend his contract until 2021.

RIP good team dream

https://www.telesport.nl/artikel/100362/wielersport/dumoulin-blijft-sunweb-trouw

 

[cellardoor]

Re:

Apparently, Dumoulin is set to extend his contract until 2021.

RIP good team dream

https://www.telesport.nl/artikel/100362/wielersport/dumoulin-blijft-sunweb-trouw

I like the fact that he's sticking with a smaller team that have helped develop him. Hopefully they'll buy in some talent (I can't read the article to see what they say about that). Also, Laurens Ten Dam has been unexpectedly bad in this Giro, I'd expect him to be a lot better normally.

 

[Red Rick]

LTD has been declining for some time. He used be a pretty decent climber and a few years ago he would've been there when the peloton was reduced to 15-20 riders. We also don't know how good Kelderman could've been, but he's so ridiculously prone to crashing out that you don't want to rely too much on him as the last remaining mountain dom. Guys like Geschke are great though, a tough guy who is useful on all sorts of terrains. Preidler and Haga have been little short of useless this Giro, but in reality Movistar have shown how delicate it is to get the right mountain support. Their team is so deep, but even they can have trouble destroying a peloton.

Maybe they can get Matthews to do some domestiquing for Tom, he's not winning anything big anyway.

 

[SafeBet]

His team has been bad, but I wouldn't say other teams have looked particularly good in this Giro. And Sunweb had the burden of the jersey for many days, which shouldn't be underrated. Movistar and Bahrain have been very up and down, FDJ has probably been the most consistent. I don't think teams have been difference makers in this Giro, surely not as much as in previous years.

That being said, he sure needs a couple more strong domestiques for the future. Especially if he's targetting the Tour.

 

[Red Rick]

I think teams have been fairly equal this Giro. Nobody but Dumoulin has been consistenly isolated.

Movistar has faded a bit, have great depth in their climbing squad but lack the top end domestique to shred the field.

Bahrein started out *** but they've come into their own and they probably have the strongest team now. Sivtsov and especially Pelizotti are doing well, and Visconti is always decent. Would've been even better had Moreno not been thrown out.

FDJ has Reichenbach doing well, and they always have a few decent climbers who can make in into the breakaways, same as Katusha.

Pozzo is the only other one who's been alone a lot, but never had to make the race.

It's quite clear which team is the strongest this Giro, and they were taken out of GC contention by the unfortunate love story between a moto and Wilco Kelderman. I imagine they could've either controlled a lot of this Giro for Thomas or created havoc for Landa.

 

[DNP-Old]

Re:

Apparently, Dumoulin is set to extend his contract until 2021.

RIP good team dream

https://www.telesport.nl/artikel/100362/wielersport/dumoulin-blijft-sunweb-trouw

As a Dumoulinfan, I think this is a very bad idea. On the contrary, as a cyclingfan, I couldn't be happier. If that makes sense.

 

[cellardoor]

Re: Re:

Apparently, Dumoulin is set to extend his contract until 2021.

RIP good team dream

https://www.telesport.nl/artikel/100362/wielersport/dumoulin-blijft-sunweb-trouw

As a Dumoulinfan, I think this is a very bad idea. On the contrary, as a cyclingfan, I couldn't be happier. If that makes sense.

Out of interest, what team would you have liked to see him go to? I'd like to see him target the Tour next year, so it would have to be a team that doesn't already have a leader for the Tour. Perhaps Quickstep....but then they have Jungels who's a similar rider.

 

[DNP-Old]

Re: Re:

Apparently, Dumoulin is set to extend his contract until 2021.

RIP good team dream

https://www.telesport.nl/artikel/100362/wielersport/dumoulin-blijft-sunweb-trouw

As a Dumoulinfan, I think this is a very bad idea. On the contrary, as a cyclingfan, I couldn't be happier. If that makes sense.

Out of interest, what team would you have liked to see him go to? I'd like to see him target the Tour next year, so it would have to be a team that doesn't already have a leader for the Tour. Perhaps Quickstep....but then they have Jungels who's a similar rider.

For Dumoulin himself, Sky would be the perfect team. The choo-choo train is exactly his way of riding and he has the timetrial to go along with it. He has, not just the qualities, but also the style to be Froome's heir within Team Sky.

I've read Brailsford is a big fan of his as well. Hence why I think extending his contract is a bad idea. Froome is getting a day older, and Dumoulin is just 26 years old and only getting started in this whole GC program. He'll never get something similar with Sunweb. Never. That's what makes me as a cyclingfan happy, since he won't be able to dominate grand tours with his Sunweb team, like he probably would with Team Sky.

 

[lenric]

Well, at least he's not going to BMC.

 

[Netserk]

Please, Tom, lose less than one minute today (to Nairo).

 

[mavmav]

Building a strong climbing Dutch team is always going to be difficult.

Southern european countries are littered with "guys that can climb". Northern countries aren't. And there is a cultural thing as well. A Dutch guy that can climb will not "sacrifice" his career as a helper. The average Spanish rider will be more humble and will be fine riding as a sherpa his whole career for a decent pay check . So how do you build a GC team without sacrificing the team culture?

Lotto NL had at one stage Mollema, Gesink, Kelderman, Kruijswijk and Ten Dam. That could be an epic train. But in practice that were 4 leaders and a loner. Sky can literally buy allegiance. It's an embarrassment of riches to have monument winners and GC podium riders as robot helpers. Sunweb can't afford to do that.

I think Kelderman could settle in a July helper role for the foreseeable future if he gets a GC chance at Giro or Vuelta as well. And Oomen will happily ride as helper the next 2 to 3 years. Barguil won't. Maybe next year in the tour as a one-time-only deal, but he'll be gone after that.

Does Sunweb bring in 2 or 3 Spanish guys? the Movistar types. Good climbers but nothing spectacular. Will that work within the team?

And maybe Dumoulin will wake some interest from sponsors, and Sunweb can generate a bigger budget. He's a very marketable guy.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Well, Brailsford has also shown interest. The 2021 sunweb deal is not done and dusted yet:

Brailsford interested in Dumoulin?

If the Sunweb contract doesn’t work out, Dumoulin may have another option in Team Sky. Dave Brailsford, principal of Team Sky, has opened speculation that the British team may have its eye on the Dutch rider.

"I've been following Tom for many years and am very impressed. What he showed in this Giro, I have long seen coming,” he said, according to limburger.nl. “This is just a confirmation of what he can do. How he is dealing with pressure is a sign of maturity.”

Brailsford also praised the 26-year-old’s personal behavior, including his blunt speaking. “His directness is absolutely no problem. It's just refreshing that he says what he thinks. The world already has enough politically correct figures. He just has to stay who he is.”

 

[Brullnux]

"The world already has enough politically correct figures"

Is that why brailsford liked Sutton so much. And anyway, I wouldn't say Dumo isn't "PC" or whatever, he just isn't crafted by a PR team, there's a difference.

 

[portugal11]

I would love to see dumoulin in astana.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re: Re:

Kudos to Stephen Roche (on l'Equipe tv) who spotted that Dumoulin was not looking too good already 100 km from the finish.

Nibali, Quintana and co. could have finished him by attacking on Sella Chianzutan when the group only consisted of favourites. But they missed the chance. So they shouldn't complain if they lose to TD. And I am a big fan of Nibali.

Hmm, that could also easily have cost them in the end. It was a hard point in the race with a loooong flat drag without domestique, I think they played it well to wait.

If they had attacked perhaps TD could have been alone in valley spending big energy while all favourites work equally on the flat part so they could have eliminated TD and no one would have lost extra energy compared to the other.

 

[movingtarget]

Re:

Well, at least he's not going to BMC.

BMC wouldn't have done any worse than Sunweb.

 

[Ramira]

Re: Re:

Apparently, Dumoulin is set to extend his contract until 2021.

RIP good team dream

https://www.telesport.nl/artikel/100362/wielersport/dumoulin-blijft-sunweb-trouw

I like the fact that he's sticking with a smaller team that have helped develop him. Hopefully they'll buy in some talent (I can't read the article to see what they say about that). Also, Laurens Ten Dam has been unexpectedly bad in this Giro, I'd expect him to be a lot better normally.

The article says they're going to try and transition from a Sprinter team to a GC team around Dumoulin. So that should make a difference. Much of the current team is still a remnant of the teams build around Kittel and Degenkolb.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Kudos to Stephen Roche (on l'Equipe tv) who spotted that Dumoulin was not looking too good already 100 km from the finish.

Nibali, Quintana and co. could have finished him by attacking on Sella Chianzutan when the group only consisted of favourites. But they missed the chance. So they shouldn't complain if they lose to TD. And I am a big fan of Nibali.

Hmm, that could also easily have cost them in the end. It was a hard point in the race with a loooong flat drag without domestique, I think they played it well to wait.

If they had attacked perhaps TD could have been alone in valley spending big energy while all favourites work equally on the flat part so they could have eliminated TD and no one would have lost extra energy compared to the other.

Thats you assuming Dumo would be the only favourite not making the split which is unlikely, very unlikely.

 

[deValtos]

Ten Dam hasn't been that bad, he's just getting older. 36 approaching 37, he would've retired this year if not for trying to help out his friend Dumo.

Staying at Sunweb for Dumo is fine imo, with Wilco back and buy in another climber the team is good.

 

[BullsFan22]

I don't know why people are expecting more of Ten Dam. The guy is almost 37 and he is literally in his final season, unless I missed something or he changes his mind. Without Kelderman, Ten Dam is essentially the only guy that has been there to assist Dumoulin in the mountains. Geschke has been there on occasion, but he isn't the climber that Ten Dam usually is.

So yes, it's a shallow team and Dumoulin has had to rely on his own power, tactical awareness and hooking up with those around him that are willing to work (other Dutchies-Kruijswijk, Mollema...other teams like Orica or FDJ that needed to chase....).

Considering his weak team, he's done a very good job of being so far up.