Teams & Riders Tom Dumoulin discussion thread

[Metal earth]

I dont think he will ever win a GT, the Dutch curse lives on.

 

[Angliru]

Re:

It's quite funny how Dumoulin seems to be getting in Nibali's and Quintana's heads. Movistar are already admitting that Quintana wasn't attempting the double ! Nibali's performance so far was about what I expected but Quintana has shocked me with his performance. To me he seemed to give up quite easily yesterday. I think it's about time that cycling discussed a salary cap. Yes it's not perfect and smart teams can still dominate as has been seen in other sports but I think it would be good especially for grand tours. Movistar so far have been the strongest team but their tactics and performance for the most part have been ineffective. They are nowhere near as good as the Astana team from a few seasons ago. If they had put Valverde in the race in the form he has been in with Quintana that would have made it much tougher for Dumoulin. But obviously they expected Quintana to ride away from everyone in the mountains especially in the final week. Anyway Nibali and Quintana have two more stages to turn it around and I'm not convinced they will. And Pinot is not out of podium contention either.

It seems to be just the opposite. It's Dumoulin who is complaining about the tactics of his rivals. He foolishly expects them to have a similar strategy and tactics when he is the one wearing the leader's jersey and as such his team should be in command of the race. Nibali and Quintana's only chance at victory is to wear Dumoulin out in the mountains. If that means making he and his team chase every threatening attacker then that is something that he should anticipate happening. The weight of the jersey is effecting him, at least in the moments immediately following the previous stage and his adrenaline combined with the stress resulted in his regretable statements to the media.

 

[Chomsky]

The question is how well will Dumolin recover. On paper this is a stage that favors him. The climb is regular, not steep and followed by 15kms of false flats and rolling hills.

On stage 21 the normal ITT rules do not apply. Who is less exhausted is normally the most important attribute for a stage 21 ITT. Until today I thought it was a given Dumoulin would take 1 to 2 minutes. After today, I would take nothing for granted.

The unsportsmanlike attack on stage 16 was unfortunate but it makes the last two days more interesting rather than a coronation of what has so far been a dominating tour from Dumoulin.

 

[Ataraxus]

Re:

The question is how well will Dumolin recover. On paper this is a stage that favors him. The climb is regular, not steep and followed by 15kms of false flats and rolling hills.

On stage 21 the normal ITT rules do not apply. Who is less exhausted is normally the most important attribute for a stage 21 ITT. Until today I thought it was a given Dumoulin would take 1 to 2 minutes. After today, I would take nothing for granted.

The unsportsmanlike attack on stage 16 was unfortunate but it makes the last two days more interesting rather than a coronation of what has so far been a dominating tour from Dumoulin.

High-Calibre TTers are able to put an excellent performance even when they are exhausted.
Tom D. is not high-calibre, He's probably the best in the world.
Half of the 38 seconds will be taken out only at the autodromo asphalt.
The only question is whether those 38 seconds will still be the benchmark tomorrow evening.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

The question is how well will Dumolin recover. On paper this is a stage that favors him. The climb is regular, not steep and followed by 15kms of false flats and rolling hills.

On stage 21 the normal ITT rules do not apply. Who is less exhausted is normally the most important attribute for a stage 21 ITT. Until today I thought it was a given Dumoulin would take 1 to 2 minutes. After today, I would take nothing for granted.

The unsportsmanlike attack on stage 16 was unfortunate but it makes the last two days more interesting rather than a coronation of what has so far been a dominating tour from Dumoulin.

High-Calibre TTers are able to put an excellent performance even when they are exhausted.
Tom D. is not high-calibre, He's probably the best in the world.
Half of the 38 seconds will be taken out only at the autodromo asphalt.
The only question is whether those 38 seconds will still be a benchmark tomorrow evening.

This. 100 times this.

 

[Jagartrott]

Kudos to Stephen Roche (on l'Equipe tv) who spotted that Dumoulin was not looking too good already 100 km from the finish.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re:

Kudos to Stephen Roche (on l'Equipe tv) who spotted that Dumoulin was not looking too good already 100 km from the finish.

Nibali, Quintana and co. could have finished him by attacking on Sella Chianzutan when the group only consisted of favourites. But they missed the chance. So they shouldn't complain if they lose to TD. And I am a big fan of Nibali.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Kudos to Stephen Roche (on l'Equipe tv) who spotted that Dumoulin was not looking too good already 100 km from the finish.

Nibali, Quintana and co. could have finished him by attacking on Sella Chianzutan when the group only consisted of favourites. But they missed the chance. So they shouldn't complain if they lose to TD. And I am a big fan of Nibali.

Hmm, that could also easily have cost them in the end. It was a hard point in the race with a loooong flat drag without domestique, I think they played it well to wait.

 

[RedheadDane]

Well... he's got a sense of humour. :lol:

Bad day on the bike. Not much to laugh about, but some 'fans' cheering with toiletpaper at least made me giggle a bit! Good humor haha!

 

[classicomano]

Its hard to believe hes really fading this hard after being so strong yesterday. I still have hope that this was a one off and hes better tomorrow.

 

[Rollthedice]

This is ridiculous, after all the pissgate and outrage we find out that Sunweb in fact distanced the man in pink, Big Mouth himself, pulling in front on the descent! Here, the video:

https://u.nya.is/djrsgn.mp4

 

[hazaran]

Re:

On stage 21 the normal ITT rules do not apply. Who is less exhausted is normally the most important attribute for a stage 21 ITT. Until today I thought it was a given Dumoulin would take 1 to 2 minutes. After today, I would take nothing for granted.

This doesn't square with sports science. If a rider in bad form is 20W off his threshold power, for a guy like Dumoulin, that still leaves a massive 60W gap to a Quintana in a discipline that values raw power above all. On top of that, aerodynamics and technique stay the same.

On a climb it's lethal because gravity is a great equalizer and where others are still climbing aerobically you can be exhausting your anaerobic budget when you're missing 20W from your best.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re:

This is ridiculous, after all the pissgate and outrage we find out that Sunweb in fact distanced the man in pink, Big Mouth himself, pulling in front on the descent! Here, the video:

https://u.nya.is/djrsgn.mp4

So, they didn't realise he was at the back of the bunch? Isn't keep track of your GC leader the first rule of any team having a GC leader?
He's... pretty easy to spot.

 

[mavmav]

His post race interview on Dutch TV tells me he's not done. You can tell when a guy cracked. When he knows he merely postponed the inevitable. He's always honest about his riding, never postures himself, looks for excuses or hides his weaknesses in interviews. He looked like a guy with bad legs not one with an empty tank.

 

[Kwibus]

Re: Re:

This is ridiculous, after all the pissgate and outrage we find out that Sunweb in fact distanced the man in pink, Big Mouth himself, pulling in front on the descent! Here, the video:

https://u.nya.is/djrsgn.mp4

So, they didn't realise he was at the back of the bunch? Isn't keep track of your GC leader the first rule of any team having a GC leader?
He's... pretty easy to spot.

First and foremost it's Dumoulins own fault. Not his team who were doing their jobs, if nobody tells them that Dumoulin decided to chill in the back they can't help it.

 

[RedheadDane]

But isn't it generally a good idea to have at least one rider who's always with the captain? A

 

[hazaran]

Sky (and probably others) typically have the guy with the closest bike measurements riding behind so they can do a quick bike swap if there is any problem. Cue the Froome slip on that white line in the Tour, he had a teammates bike within a few seconds.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

His post race interview on Dutch TV tells me he's not done. You can tell when a guy cracked. When he knows he merely postponed the inevitable. He's always honest about his riding, never postures himself, looks for excuses or hides his weaknesses in interviews. He looked like a guy with bad legs not one with an empty tank.

Sure he's not done but tomorrow he'll have to watch out alone for a half dozen riders after he'll be worked hard by at least three strong teams, Movi, Bahrain and FdJ.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Re:

His post race interview on Dutch TV tells me he's not done. You can tell when a guy cracked. When he knows he merely postponed the inevitable. He's always honest about his riding, never postures himself, looks for excuses or hides his weaknesses in interviews. He looked like a guy with bad legs not one with an empty tank.

Sure he's not done but tomorrow he'll have to watch out alone for a half dozen riders after he'll be worked hard by at least three strong teams, Movi, Bahrain and FdJ.

You really hate him, don't you?

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

His post race interview on Dutch TV tells me he's not done. You can tell when a guy cracked. When he knows he merely postponed the inevitable. He's always honest about his riding, never postures himself, looks for excuses or hides his weaknesses in interviews. He looked like a guy with bad legs not one with an empty tank.

Sure he's not done but tomorrow he'll have to watch out alone for a half dozen riders after he'll be worked hard by at least three strong teams, Movi, Bahrain and FdJ.

You really hate him, don't you?

Actually no. I really like him, how did you come to this conclusion?

 

[mavmav]

Re: Re:

His post race interview on Dutch TV tells me he's not done. You can tell when a guy cracked. When he knows he merely postponed the inevitable. He's always honest about his riding, never postures himself, looks for excuses or hides his weaknesses in interviews. He looked like a guy with bad legs not one with an empty tank.

Sure he's not done but tomorrow he'll have to watch out alone for a half dozen riders after he'll be worked hard by at least three strong teams, Movi, Bahrain and FdJ.

They'll all have to look out for each other.

The whole, "attack and let the other guys play chicken with Dumoulin" tactic is over. They all feel they can win now. Nibali isn't sitting up when Quintana goes. Pinot isn't sitting up when Nibali goes. They're not here to make Tom lose the Giro. They're here to win the giro themselves.

No rider is measurably stronger then the rest. They all have had a (semi) bad day. Movistar, FDJ and Bahrain will want to ride a fast tempo up Monte Grappa hoping Dumoulin can't follow. But if he can follow they'll try their luck up Asiago. Nobody will be foolish enough to attack on Monte Grappa. There would be 4 teams chasing...

And let's face it. They're all spent. Nibali asked his teammate to slow down at the exact moment where Nibali should've attacked. Quintana was prolly the weakest in the GC guys group and Pinot's attack turned out to be pretty weak (time wise) at the finish line.

Because they're all so close, all Dumoulin has to do tomorrow is follow wheels. His team has no responsibility to lead the race. And FDJ, Bahrain, Movistar and Katusha will look at each other just as much as they will look at Dumoulin.

 

[wouterkaas]

Dumoulin sounded surprisingly optimistic in his post-race interview. A Sunweb DS also added that Dumoulin often recovers very well after a bad day and is well able to handle it mentally. It's not over yet, I hope.

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

It's quite funny how Dumoulin seems to be getting in Nibali's and Quintana's heads. Movistar are already admitting that Quintana wasn't attempting the double ! Nibali's performance so far was about what I expected but Quintana has shocked me with his performance. To me he seemed to give up quite easily yesterday. I think it's about time that cycling discussed a salary cap. Yes it's not perfect and smart teams can still dominate as has been seen in other sports but I think it would be good especially for grand tours. Movistar so far have been the strongest team but their tactics and performance for the most part have been ineffective. They are nowhere near as good as the Astana team from a few seasons ago. If they had put Valverde in the race in the form he has been in with Quintana that would have made it much tougher for Dumoulin. But obviously they expected Quintana to ride away from everyone in the mountains especially in the final week. Anyway Nibali and Quintana have two more stages to turn it around and I'm not convinced they will. And Pinot is not out of podium contention either.

It seems to be just the opposite. It's Dumoulin who is complaining about the tactics of his rivals. He foolishly expects them to have a similar strategy and tactics when he is the one wearing the leader's jersey and as such his team should be in command of the race. Nibali and Quintana's only chance at victory is to wear Dumoulin out in the mountains. If that means making he and his team chase every threatening attacker then that is something that he should anticipate happening. The weight of the jersey is effecting him, at least in the moments immediately following the previous stage and his adrenaline combined with the stress resulted in his regretable statements to the media.

I still think Dumoulin comes out of this race a better rider win or lose. If he loses he has to admit that he has made some errors, if he wins then I think there is another GT talent on the scene which will be good for the sport but I don't think Froome is getting nervous just yet. Either Dumoulin has deliberately been running his mouth off to get to his rivals or it's the result of stress. Probably the latter considering the fact that he apologized. Geschke did very well yesterday for Dumoulin but no doubt that his team needs some additions for the mountains. Losing Kelderman didn't help. Pinot could be the real danger in the next stage because he looks the freshest rider on GC and if he draws out other riders and Dumoulin gets isolated again it's game set and match for Dumoulin unless he can recover on the descents. It will be interesting to see how much risk will be taken and how much attacking will happen. Dumoulin himself could pinch some more time at the end of the stage if he has the legs. I hope by now he has learned about positioning in the bunch when riding for GC. It's hard to see this not being an aggressive stage which isn't good news for Dumoulin because Zakarin and Pinot are hungry for the podium and not far away on time. So he has four riders to watch not two. And if he has a very hard stage trying to control attacks will his TT be blunted the next day ? It has happened plenty of times before when a good TT rider has had a mediocre final TT simply due to fatigue. This is not the stage he wanted at this time in the race and it could be chaotic and hard to control without a strong team.

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

His post race interview on Dutch TV tells me he's not done. You can tell when a guy cracked. When he knows he merely postponed the inevitable. He's always honest about his riding, never postures himself, looks for excuses or hides his weaknesses in interviews. He looked like a guy with bad legs not one with an empty tank.

Sure he's not done but tomorrow he'll have to watch out alone for a half dozen riders after he'll be worked hard by at least three strong teams, Movi, Bahrain and FdJ.

You really hate him, don't you?

The statement is very true. The top 6 even are all within 1:30. Quintana and Nibbes most definitely want to win. Pinot seems like he's willing to spill his guts to win instead of just protecting his current placing. Point is, Dumoulin will have his hands full.

 

[Kwibus]

Re:

But isn't it generally a good idea to have at least one rider who's always with the captain? A

Geschke and ten dam were with him as you can see in the shown footage.