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Re:
Some indications from Matthews as well that all is not good at Sunweb. You get the feeling that Matthews thought the plug should have been pulled on Dumoulin's Tour campaign a long time before it was. But with Matthews he does a fair amount of whining anyway .........to be fair Jumbo also did some bizarre things in the Giro but their team was also decimated before the start of the race with injuries etc.....
Red Rick said:
Some indications from Matthews as well that all is not good at Sunweb. You get the feeling that Matthews thought the plug should have been pulled on Dumoulin's Tour campaign a long time before it was. But with Matthews he does a fair amount of whining anyway .........to be fair Jumbo also did some bizarre things in the Giro but their team was also decimated before the start of the race with injuries etc.....
Dutch newspaper De Limburger reports, that Dumoulin's transfer might not be that complicated after all:
"According to Bobbie Traksel (Chairman of the Dutch Trade Union of Professional Cyclists (VVBW)), Dumoulin can just move, if he wants. "There is no cycling collective agreement at the moment and Dutch law always goes beyond the rules of the UCI."
Under Dutch law, Dumoulin is therefore an employee with a permanent contract and can leave with a notice period of one month whenever he wants. "Sunweb has a big problem and I am convinced that Dumoulin is very strong here. Just like everyone with a permanent contract, Tom just has a cancellation period. He does not need to put a transfer fee or similar on the table. I think Tom prefers to solve this nicely, but if they can't work it out, this is definitely an option, "says Traksel."
Promising, but it sounds weird to me, that Dutch laws could nullify the contract between Dumoulin and a German team.
"According to Bobbie Traksel (Chairman of the Dutch Trade Union of Professional Cyclists (VVBW)), Dumoulin can just move, if he wants. "There is no cycling collective agreement at the moment and Dutch law always goes beyond the rules of the UCI."
Under Dutch law, Dumoulin is therefore an employee with a permanent contract and can leave with a notice period of one month whenever he wants. "Sunweb has a big problem and I am convinced that Dumoulin is very strong here. Just like everyone with a permanent contract, Tom just has a cancellation period. He does not need to put a transfer fee or similar on the table. I think Tom prefers to solve this nicely, but if they can't work it out, this is definitely an option, "says Traksel."
Promising, but it sounds weird to me, that Dutch laws could nullify the contract between Dumoulin and a German team.
Sunweb is a German team, but has a Netherlands based paying agent (company).kiszol said:
"Promising" means that you are in favour of such a transfer.
janraaskalt said:
Well, as a Dumoulin fan I'm absolutely in favour of any transfer he can get at this point. He got minimal support at Sunweb, maybe not on management level as he was the clear leader of the team in every GT he participated with them after 2016 but in every other aspect. They were unable to support him with good domestiques several times. I'm sure that with a Jumbo (Tour 2019) level team Tom would have won the 2018 Giro and probably the 2018 Tour as well. They terribly mismanaged his knee injury resulting in him having to end his season after the Dauphine. Any competitive team would be better for him than that. And Jumbo is a Dutch team (not a bad sign for a Dutch rider), with much stronger domestiques (Sunweb had years to create a strong team around him but failed) and they offer a bigger salary to Tom... so why not?
I agree, sunweb did not get him the support he needed, i was really surprised when the mt support promised for him would be Roche and Bakelants and Rob Power.
They are not bad by any means, but no GT winner support
They are not bad by any means, but no GT winner support
They've got a German license. Eventually they're as German as Androni Giocattoli was Venezuelan or CSF Group was North Irish.janraaskalt said:
They've been based in the Netherlands ever since their Bankgiroloterij days. First in Rijssen/Twente, nowadays in Deventer!
Dutch team with international flavor!
kiszol said:
https://www.uci.org/docs/default-source/rules-and-regulations/part-ii-road/2018-joint-agreements.pdf?sfvrsn=653b794c_4
And article 6, specifically
Art. 6
Contract shall be for a specified period ending on 31 December.
It follows that in terms of the nature of the contract, it can never be interpreted as permanent or of
an indefinite duration.
Did you even try to read the previous post? Dutch law goes above UCI rules...
So you can state an UCI rule. It doesn't matter.
So you can state an UCI rule. It doesn't matter.
Re:
And did you try to read the agreement?
Apart from the possibility of use of a Dutch civil court in case of a dispute, nowhere does it say that Dutch law goes above UCI rules, however much you want this to be the case.
Dekker_Tifosi said:
And did you try to read the agreement?
Apart from the possibility of use of a Dutch civil court in case of a dispute, nowhere does it say that Dutch law goes above UCI rules, however much you want this to be the case.
Re: Re:
If the Dutch justice decides something, the UCI can literally *** themselves and their rules as it is the case nearly all the time something goes from sport justice to a legit law court.
They might not even try to imply their rules as otherwise they might get a smart money case at a legit court!
Roberta Heras officially kept his 2005 Vuelta title.roundabout said:
If the Dutch justice decides something, the UCI can literally *** themselves and their rules as it is the case nearly all the time something goes from sport justice to a legit law court.
They might not even try to imply their rules as otherwise they might get a smart money case at a legit court!
Rumors... rumors everywhere!
Thing is, his main issue with the Sunweb was that the team didn't bring in the GT support he was asking for... so what can a team like CCC offer in that regard?
I still think he'll end up in Jumbo.
Thing is, his main issue with the Sunweb was that the team didn't bring in the GT support he was asking for... so what can a team like CCC offer in that regard?
I still think he'll end up in Jumbo.
Re:
Jumbo have to still be favorites to sign him, but ccc makes more sense than would appear obvious at first.
He’d be back with his old mates Geschke and Ten Dam. Presuming neither is retiring, of course (LTD has to be close). He’d be with a team boss who has won a Tour in the past decade, and there’s very few of those around not named Brailsford or Vino. The classics stars that the team is built around are getting on a bit (well, star. Greg is 34), so resetting target to GTs wouldn’t be a huge shift for them if they make a couple of smart transfer deals. And he would be the number 1 GT rider for the team, which wouldn’t be quite so guaranteed if he rode for the same squad as Kruiswijk and Roglic.glassmoon said:
Jumbo have to still be favorites to sign him, but ccc makes more sense than would appear obvious at first.
With multiple grand tour podiums and still in his prime athletic years, Jumbo would be a bit crazy not to give him preference as team leader for at least one GT. SK finally got his podium and Roglic also has one so the team is in good shape and they also have some quality mountain domestiques. How much Roglic can improve is the big question and also whether Dumoulin's knee injury has lasting effects. Better riders than Dumoulin have had the second half of their careers limited by injuries.
Maybe they all can ride 1 GT as leader, and 1 as first luitenant (/ backup leader)? Something like:
Vuelta: Kruijswijk with Dumoulin
Giro: Roglic with Kruijswijk
Tour: Dumoulin with Roglic
Add De Plus, Bennett, Gesink as mountain domestiques with Bouwman, Kuss, Tolhoek as 2nd tier mountain domestiques.
Vuelta: Kruijswijk with Dumoulin
Giro: Roglic with Kruijswijk
Tour: Dumoulin with Roglic
Add De Plus, Bennett, Gesink as mountain domestiques with Bouwman, Kuss, Tolhoek as 2nd tier mountain domestiques.
Why would Kruijswijk be a co leader in any GT with either Roglic or Dumoulin?
I'd say Kruijswijk and Groenewegen should lead the Giro, then you bring Roglic/Dumoulin to the Tour without having to bring a sprint train as well.
Vuelta you can bring Groenewegen and which ever GC leader still wants to ride it. It starts in the Netherlands next year, so the Dutchies may be more likely to want to start
I'd say Kruijswijk and Groenewegen should lead the Giro, then you bring Roglic/Dumoulin to the Tour without having to bring a sprint train as well.
Vuelta you can bring Groenewegen and which ever GC leader still wants to ride it. It starts in the Netherlands next year, so the Dutchies may be more likely to want to start
Jumbo-Visma's newfound success creates conundrum for Kiwi cyclist George Bennett
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/114639242/jumbovismas-newfound-success-creates-conundrum-for-kiwi-cyclist-george-bennett
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/114639242/jumbovismas-newfound-success-creates-conundrum-for-kiwi-cyclist-george-bennett
Re:
As for Groenewegen, considering his effort in the Tour, where he had the best sprint train working for him, i personally wouldn't be too eager to bring him to any GT with more than one designated guy, at least if you are serious about going for GC. Sprint trains don't work anymore anyway and there should be GC doms that are versatile enough to lend a hand if need be.
I was only saying there are ways to keep them all happy and with 3 GT's, having 3 contenders in your team shouldn't be a problem yet.Red Rick said:
As for Groenewegen, considering his effort in the Tour, where he had the best sprint train working for him, i personally wouldn't be too eager to bring him to any GT with more than one designated guy, at least if you are serious about going for GC. Sprint trains don't work anymore anyway and there should be GC doms that are versatile enough to lend a hand if need be.
Groenenwegen was harmed by his crash though, his whole season had been stellar beforehand!
Dumoulin is gonna be outright leader at Jumbo and get all their climbers as domestiques. That's something neither Sunweb, nor CCC really can offer to him. So Jumbo really should be in pole position to sign him.
Kruijswijk simply goes to the grand tour that Dumoulin doesn't ride. Most likely the Giro d'Italia or the Vuelta. Not much of a problem I guess. Later he's gonna be super-domestique. Again no problem I guess. If he's only the no. 2 and can ride his favorite Giro, he's probably even quite happy with that situation.
Roglic is gone anyway in that scenario. Only question is whether Jumbo already sells him this winter or let's him go for free after 2020. Once Dumoulin is on board he doesn't add too much to the team anymore, as the focus shifts from one week tours to gt's. Roglic showed at the Giro he's not capable to win a big tour. Too limited in the big mountains and to be tactically inept as well. Kruijswijk actually might've won that Giro against Carapaz! At the Tour the Slovenian can handle the mountains, but Dumoulin is just much better than him.
Plus Jumbo needs to please their key domestiques like Bennett, De Plus & Tolhoek a bit by giving them free roles at the Vuelta or at least the Tour of Switzerland, not only in California! Roglic just doesn't fit into the team strategy anymore, once they sign Dumoulin IMHO!
Dumoulin is gonna be outright leader at Jumbo and get all their climbers as domestiques. That's something neither Sunweb, nor CCC really can offer to him. So Jumbo really should be in pole position to sign him.
Kruijswijk simply goes to the grand tour that Dumoulin doesn't ride. Most likely the Giro d'Italia or the Vuelta. Not much of a problem I guess. Later he's gonna be super-domestique. Again no problem I guess. If he's only the no. 2 and can ride his favorite Giro, he's probably even quite happy with that situation.
Roglic is gone anyway in that scenario. Only question is whether Jumbo already sells him this winter or let's him go for free after 2020. Once Dumoulin is on board he doesn't add too much to the team anymore, as the focus shifts from one week tours to gt's. Roglic showed at the Giro he's not capable to win a big tour. Too limited in the big mountains and to be tactically inept as well. Kruijswijk actually might've won that Giro against Carapaz! At the Tour the Slovenian can handle the mountains, but Dumoulin is just much better than him.
Plus Jumbo needs to please their key domestiques like Bennett, De Plus & Tolhoek a bit by giving them free roles at the Vuelta or at least the Tour of Switzerland, not only in California! Roglic just doesn't fit into the team strategy anymore, once they sign Dumoulin IMHO!
Re:
I agree with the first part but I'm not sure about the second part. Roglic is still quite new to cycling and despite his age (he is older than Dumoulin) he is still developing, especially as a GT contender. He started the Tour last year as a superdom to Kruijswijk yet he finished in front of him and almost snatched the podium place from Froome. He was the leader at this year's Giro but the team couldn't support him properly unlike to Kruijswijk's Tour bid. The third place is a good result considering this and it easily could have been better. I think he is a better GT rider already than Kruijswijk. So while Dumoulin is better and younger than Roglic the same can be said about Roglic versus Kruijswijk. So why does Kruijswijk fit to the team if Roglic doesn't? Because his nationality? I think they need all of them.
As for Bennett the future is not bright. If Dumoulin signs with Jumbo Bennett will most certainly will be relegated to pure domestique duties behind the 3 leaders. If someone will have a shared leader option in the future besides Dumo, Rogla and Kruijswjk it will probably be De Plus.
I like the idea of sharing the 3 GTs between the 3 stars. This way none of them will be unhappy and they will help each other without questions.
staubsauger said:
I agree with the first part but I'm not sure about the second part. Roglic is still quite new to cycling and despite his age (he is older than Dumoulin) he is still developing, especially as a GT contender. He started the Tour last year as a superdom to Kruijswijk yet he finished in front of him and almost snatched the podium place from Froome. He was the leader at this year's Giro but the team couldn't support him properly unlike to Kruijswijk's Tour bid. The third place is a good result considering this and it easily could have been better. I think he is a better GT rider already than Kruijswijk. So while Dumoulin is better and younger than Roglic the same can be said about Roglic versus Kruijswijk. So why does Kruijswijk fit to the team if Roglic doesn't? Because his nationality? I think they need all of them.
As for Bennett the future is not bright. If Dumoulin signs with Jumbo Bennett will most certainly will be relegated to pure domestique duties behind the 3 leaders. If someone will have a shared leader option in the future besides Dumo, Rogla and Kruijswjk it will probably be De Plus.
I like the idea of sharing the 3 GTs between the 3 stars. This way none of them will be unhappy and they will help each other without questions.
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