Top 10 riders ever?

[Gcraenen]

I don't care about what anyone says, this is how I see it:

1. Merckx
2. Hinault
3. Coppi*
4. Kelly
5. Indurain
6. Binda
7. Armstrong
8 Bartali*
9. LeMond
9. Moser
10. De Looy

*If it wasn't for the war they would be higher. But I'm not going to indulge in what if.

I've probably forgetton someone (not Anquetil - a TT expert with no flair)

Not an unreasonable list, but lets include a multi-discipline specialist such as RdV and leave of Indurain for the same reason as Anquetil.

 

[Gcraenen]

Costante Girardengo

2x Giro d'Italia
6x Milan San Remo
3x Giro di Lombardia

Probably would have won at least 1 World Championship too if the race was held before 1927.

So early and never won outside his own country. Should I have included him? What do you all think?

 

[Gcraenen]

The Cycling Hall of Fame (http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/alltime25.asp)web site lists the top 25 riders of all time as

1. Eddy Merckx, BEL
2. Bernard Hinault, FRA
3. Lance Armstrong, USA
4. Jacques Anquetil, FRA
5. Fausto Coppi, ITA
6. Miguel Indurain, ESP
7. Gino Bartali, ITA
8. Louison Bobet, FRA
9. Felice Gimondi, ITA
10. Greg Lemond, USA
11. Joop Zoetemelk, HOL
12. Alfredo Binda, ITA
13. Lucien Van Impe, BEL
14. Alberto Contador, ESP
15. Jan Ullrich, GER
16. Sean Kelly, IRE
17. Laurent Fignon, FRA
18. Rik Van Looy, BEL
19. Francesco Moser, ITA
20. Federico Bahamontes, ESP
21. Jan Janssen, HOL
22. Philippe Thys, FRA
23. Raymond Poulidor, FRA
24. Charly Gaul, LUX
25. Erik Zabel, GER

Even though I'm not an Armstrong fan, I see no need to quibble with their methods. I like this list partly because it raises riders whom we tend to underrate (Moser Ullrich, Fignon, Poulidor, & Zabel) or forget (Bobet, Bartali, Gimondi, Van Looy, Binda, Bahamontes, Janssen, & Gaul).

A quibble with the CHF: Philippe Thys is Belgian, not French. 3 TdF victories stradling 4 years in the trenches of WWI, in case anyone doesn't remember him.

 

[Gcraenen]

Tour podiums would rearrange the order.. or podiums in monuments and tours..
Joop!!!

Joop Zoetemelk, the king of drafters, wheel sucker par excelence, the limpet of the peloton... But you are right, the second oldest man to ever win ther TdF deserves an honourable mention as well.

 

[nvpacchi]

Bartali has 16 points within the given criteria.

 

[Gcraenen]

Bartali has 16 points within the given criteria.

What did I miss, I only have him at 8 points.

 

[luckyboy]

Merckx
Kelly
Zoetemelk
Poulidor
Hinault
Bartali
Moser
de Vlaeminck
Anquetil
Gimondi

According to this anyway - http://www.cyclingranking.com/

Seems pretty ****ed up though. Contador & Menchov are in the 150s just ahead of Mancebo.

Also, Coppi is 20th - he gets more points for 1954 (1085pts - Giro mountain jersey + stage, Lombardia, 2 semi-classics), than 1953 (460pts - Giro overall + 3 stages, WC, a semi-classic).

 

[Gcraenen]

Merckx
Kelly
Zoetemelk
Poulidor
Hinault
Bartali
Moser
de Vlaeminck
Anquetil
Gimondi

According to this anyway - http://www.cyclingranking.com/

Seems pretty ****ed up though. Contador & Menchov are in the 150s just ahead of Mancebo.

Also, Coppi is 20th - he gets more points for 1954 (1085pts - Giro mountain jersey + stage, Lombardia, 2 semi-classics), than 1953 (460pts - Giro overall + 3 stages, WC, a semi-classic).

That is exactly why I simplified the criteria. Thanks

 

[ericthesportsman6]

What did I miss, I only have him at 8 points.

2 TDF wins, 3 Giro wins, 4 MSR wins, and 2 Lombardia wins=16 points

 

[TheDude]

The Cycling Hall of Fame (http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/alltime25.asp)web site lists the top 25 riders of all time as

1. Eddy Merckx, BEL
2. Bernard Hinault, FRA
3. Lance Armstrong, USA
4. Jacques Anquetil, FRA
5. Fausto Coppi, ITA
6. Miguel Indurain, ESP
7. Gino Bartali, ITA
8. Louison Bobet, FRA
9. Felice Gimondi, ITA
10. Greg Lemond, USA
11. Joop Zoetemelk, HOL
12. Alfredo Binda, ITA
13. Lucien Van Impe, BEL
14. Alberto Contador, ESP
15. Jan Ullrich, GER
16. Sean Kelly, IRE
17. Laurent Fignon, FRA
18. Rik Van Looy, BEL
19. Francesco Moser, ITA
20. Federico Bahamontes, ESP
21. Jan Janssen, HOL
22. Philippe Thys, FRA
23. Raymond Poulidor, FRA
24. Charly Gaul, LUX
25. Erik Zabel, GER

Even though I'm not an Armstrong fan, I see no need to quibble with their methods. I like this list partly because it raises riders whom we tend to underrate (Moser Ullrich, Fignon, Poulidor, & Zabel) or forget (Bobet, Bartali, Gimondi, Van Looy, Binda, Bahamontes, Janssen, & Gaul).

Solid list, but as you say, earlier riders tend to be under-rated. I'm positive #22 deserves to be top 5, and I believe BEL not FRA belongs after his name. Thys was the first Belgum national Cyclocross champion, so that ranks him very high right off the start in my book. The problem with this ranking is not only were there not as many ways to earn points 95 years ago, if you throw in a WW I, he lost most of his prime years. He would have been the first 5-time Tour winner.

[Edit]Gcr - I just noticed that you caught this first, good for you. I personally think number 2, right after Merckx would be the right place if the playing field were level.

 

[sienna]

Laurent Jalabert?

 

[ericthesportsman6]

Laurent Jalabert?

Scores 8 points in the system if the World TT championships count, but he was a great all around rider.

 

[tubularglue]

1.merckx
2.merckx
3.merckx
4.merckx
5.merckx
6.merckx
7.merckx
8.merckx
9.merckx
10.merckx

 

[luckyboy]

Just got together a .txt file of the riders you'd expect to be up there. Typed out their wins in the following races..

Tour, Giro, Vuelta (inc. stages, points, mountains, combativity, combination)
Suisse, Romandie, Dauphine, Paris-Nice, Catalunya, Pais-Vasco, Tirreno
World +ITT, Olympics +ITT
Roubaix, MSR, Ronde, Liege, Lombardia
Amstel, Fleche, Paris-Brussels, Gent-Wev, San Seb, Bordeaux-Paris, Züri-Metzgete, Paris-Tours

Looks like the top 10 are..(some semblance of an order)
1.Merckx, 2.Hinault, 3.Coppi, 4.Anquetil, 5.de Vlaeminck, 6.Gimondi, 7=.Bartali/Kelly/Bobet/Armstrong/Binda

Indurain, Van Looy, Contador, Girardengo and Pelissier miss out.

Bearing in mind I have yet to do Leducq, Moser, Zabel, Maertens, Cipollini, Saronni, Thys, Lemond, Fignon, Van Steenbergen, Argentin, Poulidor, Zoetemelk, Van Impe, Bahamontes, Janssen, Museeuw, Bartoli, Bettini, Boonen, Magni, Derycke, Kuiper, Godefroot, Raas and Cancellara. I will update tomorrow.

 

[skidmark]

Some of you may remember this: back in 2006-07 when I really got into the history of cycling, there was a website called cycling4all.com. Among many comprehensive rankings put together voluntarily by a few people, this guy Daniel Marszalyk (sorry if I spelled it wrong, going by memory) put together a list of the best riders of all time, using pretty comprehensive criteria that he redid a few times based on feedback.

Basically, it was: Tour win = 100 points (descending points for all top 10), Giro, Vuelta 90 (descending points for all top 10), 50 points for a monument (top 6 ranked with points), and then various points for what are now the ProTour races (ie. 40 points for Paris-Nice, DL, 35 for Eneco Tour, Poland, etc; and 45 points for AGR, GW, etc, 40 points for San Sebastien, etc; 70 points for Worlds, top 6-8 ranked in all races). Also points for stage wins, jerseys (and wearing leader's jerseys) in GTs, etc. And races were weighted differently over the years based on prestige that they carried (Vuelta used to be lower). So like I said, comprehensive and reflective of the whole season, even if you could find some fault in it (like obviously, the tour is so much bigger than other races, and the Vuelta isn't exactly on the level with the Giro, and maybe winning RvV is more than 20% more prestigious than winning Pais Vasco, for example). But I liked it better than cyclinghalloffame, which seemed to be a TDF/Paris-Roubaix lovefest. Guys like Rebellin or Zabel, who were consistent, great racers that didn't win as much as other less consistent racers, were left by the wayside. I liked the system he developed.

Anyway, if anyone's interested, the top 10 in order were:

1. Merckx (5800 points or so - waay ahead)
2. Hinault (about 3000)
3. Kelly (same)
4. Anquetil (2800 - all guys below were 25-2800)
5. Moser
6. Bartali
7. Gimondi
8. Zoetemelk
9. Coppi
10. De Vlaminck

Of note, Poulidor was 12th, Armstrong would be 13th, Indurain 14th, Jalabert 15th, Ullrich 23rd, LeMond 26th. Current riders (yes, I've kept track with that system, I'm a nerd) like Contador, Canc, Vino and Evans were all around #90 at the start of the year. Other than suspended riders Rebellin, Valverde and Di Luca, and recently retired Armstrong and Simoni, the top ranked current rider was Friere, around #70. Anyway, more food for thought in the interesting conversation that is the attempt to quantify this argument.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

http://www.thevirtualmusette.com/


Seems a reasonable scoring system, and he's completely transparent about it

 

[Hugh Januss]

http://www.thevirtualmusette.com/


Seems a reasonable scoring system, and he's completely transparent about it

I like that list, it seems the most balanced one yet.

 

[Jan the Man]

My List-

1. Eddy Merckx
2. Bernard Hinault
3. Fausto Coppi
4. Sean Kelly
5. Rik Van Looy
6. Roger De Vlaeminck
7. Gino Bartali
8. Alfredo Binda
9. Lance Armstrong
10. Francisco Moser

 

[Big Doopie]

the problem with most of these lists is that they reward longevity too much.

i would definitely add ocana high on the list. he was the only rider to not only beat, but dominate merckx (at his best). his 1973 tour win was as dominant as merckx's 1969.

van impe would drop several pegs.

so would zoetemelk.

and kelly would drop like a lead balloon.

 

[Angliru]

How about bonus points for winning more than one grand tour in a season?

 

[Nick C.]

I'm safe with

1. Merckx
2. Coppi
3. Hinault

then it gets dicey
Gimondi who won everything but overlapped with #1, a guy like Kelly or DeVlaeminck or either Rik Van Looy or Van Steenburgen.
What about Binda? Shoudl I go with the GT guys Indurain and Anquetil. The one trick pony, but what a one trick Lance Armstrong. The men who won a variety of races with mid career interruptions like Bartali and LeMond? Its hard to say but certainly interesting stuff.

 

[El Pistolero]

A list about currently active cyclists would be more interesting.

Contador: 10

Tom Boonen: 7

Menchov: 6

Cancellara: 7(or 8 if you add the Olympics)

I don't think a time trial world championship should give as much points as a road race. Perhaps 0.5 points for a WC TT?

And is it really fair to give equal points to all monuments? Paris-Roubaix is obviously more prestigious than Giro di Lombardia. She's the queen of classics after all.

And what about the Olympics? Somewhere in the sixties or something professionals were allowed at the Olympics.

 

[Dedelou]

A list about currently active cyclists would be more interesting.

Contador: 10

Tom Boonen: 7

Menchov: 6

Cancellara: 7(or 8 if you add the Olympics)

I don't think a time trial world championship should give as much points as a road race. Perhaps 0.5 points for a WC TT?

And is it really fair to give equal points to all monuments? Paris-Roubaix is obviously more prestigious than Giro di Lombardia. She's the queen of classics after all.

And what about the Olympics? Somewhere in the sixties or something professionals were allowed at the Olympics.

what about all the years when "The grand Prix des Nations " was held? During those years it was considered lique the real ITT challenge. Also any points for the Hour record?

 

[Moondance]

For moi.

1. Merckx
2. Hinault
3. Anquetil
4. Kelly
5. Zoetemelk
6. Coppi
7. Bartali
8. Moser
9. Van Looy
10. De Vlaeminck

 

[Grzdylu]

1. Eddy Merckx (B) [1965-78]
2. Bernard Hinault (F) [1975-86]
3. Sean Kelly (IRL) [1977-94]
4. Jacques Anquetil (F) [1953-69]
5. Francesco Moser (I) [1973-88]
6. Gino Bartali (I) [1934-54]
7. Felice Gimondi (I) [1965-78]
8. Joop Zoetemelk (NL) [1970-87]
9. Fausto Coppi (I) [1939-59]
10. Roger De Vlaeminck (B) [1969-87]