Total Disillusionment

[Cimber]

Swimming? No, lots of dopers to one extent or other, especially last couple of years - hell, the RUSADA caught a russion, 14!! the other day. Quite a lot of evidence that the russians have a systmic problem, but at least RUSADA seem to want to do something (see also list of recent russian women runners caught) - in Putin society, that's not a given.

Still, strawman argument. There's doping in every sport. Every. single. One. But not all sports people are dopers. A not = B.

As for your photo, who is she? Immediately brought to mind Enders...

My point was that I dont buy the argument that the key to Kerrison's success at Sky can only be that hat he came from another sport that has different such new and revolutionising ideas, and that he couldnt possible be related to doping since he came from another sport (swimming).

Yes all sports have dope, even bridge and dart, but both cycling and swimming are two sports known for heavy doping.

EDIT: oh the picture. Didnt check, was just a google hit

 

[ANCrider]

You wish you were another of the dopers? Hmmm, why?

No, I wish I had his talent.

 

[ANCrider]

Team Sky have exactly the same kind of fans that US Postal did: largely bandwagoners who know very little about cycling but feel some sort of nationalistic pride that a team from (a corporation in) their country is winning races.

I'd say that is pretty true.

However, I'd also say 'so what?'

 

[Cimber]

I'd say that is pretty true.

However, I'd also say 'so what?'

I think the point is that such fans dont have any critical perception and wont even consider the d-word.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I'd say that is pretty true.

However, I'd also say 'so what?'

So, their opinion on anything cycling-related is worthless, as they neither know or care about the sport.

 

[ANCrider]

I think the point is that such fans dont have any critical perception and wont even consider the d-word.

The same would be true of all sorts of people supporting all sorts of teams.

Equally, I guess since this is essentially a cycling doping conspiracy site, you'd expect people to be a bit swivel-eyed about it all.

 

[Chaddy]

I think it works the other way too, people can't see past Brits being the new kings of cycling.

 

[hrotha]

The same would be true of all sorts of people supporting all sorts of teams.

Equally, I guess since this is essentially a cycling doping conspiracy site, you'd expect people to be a bit swivel-eyed about it all.

Movistar, Cannondale and OPQS have supporters? Not in the same sense, not by a long shot. They're not national projects. They don't attract newcomers who didn't watch cycling until they had nationalistic reasons to do so.

 

[ANCrider]

So, their opinion on anything cycling-related is worthless, as they neither know or care about the sport.

It's sport.

In fact, it isn't even sport, it is sport spectating. Different people have all sorts of reasons for spectating, and all sorts of levels of commitment and/or participation. I've no idea what your level of actual participation in the sport is (if any) but does that mean I'd just write you off with a wave of the hand? No.

 

[Cimber]

The same would be true of all sorts of people supporting all sorts of teams.

Equally, I guess since this is essentially a cycling doping conspiracy site, you'd expect people to be a bit swivel-eyed about it all.

Well the point is that many old-school fans often support riders more than actual teams. With teams such as USP, Sky and to some degree Saxo some of their fans see it more as their "national team". Also more old-school fans know the (doping) history of cycling, a lot of Sky fans seem to be rather new to the sport and therefor also think that doping is something from the past and in any case is only bound to continetal Europe.

Its not bad per say, just naive maybe.

 

[ANCrider]

Movistar, Cannondale and OPQS have supporters? Not in the same sense, not by a long shot. They're not national projects. They don't attract newcomers who didn't watch cycling until they had nationalistic reasons to do so.

You've never met any French fans, clearly.

 

[Cimber]

You've never met any French fans, clearly.

In my experience they support the riders more than the teams. Also they dont have one huge team percieved as national team

 

[martinvickers]

I think the point is that such fans dont have any critical perception and wont even consider the d-word.

There's precious little critical perception on either 'side', Cimber. Certainly not in here.

Look, here we have a thread because someone is now totally disillusioned.

After Sky win one GT.

They survived the Indurain years as Lemond went out the back like a sunday rider.

They held on as fat arses like Riis mocked true goats.

They hung on as Pantani withered and died in front of our eyes.

Hell, they even held on for seven, read that again, seven friggin Armstrong years, plus one more for his once apostle.

Some of us held on as all OUR riders of note turned out to be men with feet of clay - Kelly, Roche...

And didn't bat an eye lid as Contador got a Royal oardon form the stench of Puerto...

But SKY? Of dear god, we can't bear it, it's unprecedented in its awfulness, this time, THIS TIME, I can take no more!! Lance was an amateur to these b***tards. Roche just a canny Irishman, Indurain a saint. Riis was just a big cuddly viking. Pantani may as well have been water and the power of prayer.

But this, BUT THIS, we cannot, cannot bear.

yeah, absolutely...

Now, do Sky dope? I don't know. And nobody in here does.

Some like to think they know, on both sides. but they don't.

If they are, I pray they are caught soon, and we never, ever see any of them ever again - hopefully because they are all doing jail time.

But the recent hysterics in here? On both sides? Damn little to do with doping.

Just look at the relative pity and near sympathy a sh!thead like Ricco gets. "oh, he's just an easy target" "oh, you only talk about him because he's not an anglo" "oh, he's a scapegoat" - no, he's a f***ing doper with no remorse who nearly killed himself in the attempt. No more. And no less.

The truth? A lot of people in here, on both sides, just want to be 'the cool kids' - they pick their sides based on how it makes them feel, not on pesky things like facts, evidence, logic or research.

Seriously. Froome breaks from Tejay, and there's meltdown. Tejay. It ain't friggin Mercx we're talking, it's a good up and coming american who might just make it.

Porte kicks with 2km to go having sucked Tejay's wheel, and the mushroom cloud is visible from Ospidale.

"I cannae take anymore, Capt'n!! It's EVILLLL! I am TOTALLY disilussioned".

Nope, guys. I think you'll find, on both sides, your illusions are functioning just fine, thanks very much...

 

[ANCrider]

Well the point is that many old-school fans often support riders more than actual teams. With teams such as USP, Sky and to some degree Saxo some of their fans see it more as their "national team". Also more old-school fans know the (doping) history of cycling, a lot of Sky fans seem to be rather new to the sport and therefor also think that doping is something from the past and in any case is only bound to continetal Europe.

Its not bad per say, just naive maybe.

Are you sure that isn't just a prejudicial view on your part? If you speak to any British person (non-cycling fan) about cycling the very first thing they will say is "But they are all on drugs"

I've read some of the crap spouted on this forum about British people thinking that British people would never dope. It is utter utter crap. I can say that because I live here and I talk to British people every day. The British are just as cynical about it as everyone else.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I think it works the other way too, people can't see past Brits being the new kings of cycling.

ten chars

 

[Cimber]

...

You are acting as if pepole are only critical about Sky, you are acting as if people are wicth-hunting what you percieve as your national team.

Yes Sky is by no mean the only dopers ever, and certainly not the worst either. And people are very sceptical about other non-british teams and riders. Saxo, Sagan, Contador etc are all getting the same sceptical treatment. Ok, some might be a little harsher with Sky due to the fact that they find their tactics dull, but thats two different issues. Also, people might be much more aggresive vs. doping now than ever since the last few years have further shown how infected cycling was, and we all want a new clean beginning.

I used to be defending riders and teams given them the benifit of the doubt but now-a-days I have become much more cynical and realistic.

But by no means that this as an attack on Britain.

Oh and btw Ricco is a ***. No sympathy there. And tbh I havent seen alot given him sympathy - most think he is an utter joke. Same with Rasmussen.

 

[martinvickers]

You are acting as if pepole are only critical about Sky, you are acting as if people are wicth-hunting what you percieve as your national team.

1. Read this place a bit longer and you will have already learnt -
I'm NOT F***ING BRITISH. I'm IRISH.

'My' team is An Post, or it would be under your 'national' rules. My guys are Dan and Nico (guilty as charged there, they ARE my guys). And stop allowing your own prejudice to blind you.

2. Nobody opened a thread like this based on anyone but sky. No-one opned a thread like this based on Berti, for example.

Yes Sky is by no mean the only dopers ever, and certainly not the worst either. And people are very sceptical about other non-british teams and riders. Saxo, Sagan, Contador etc are all getting the same sceptical treatment. Ok, some might be a little harsher with Sky due to the fact that they find their tactics dull, but thats two different issues.

Would that people would realise it's two different issues - but how often have we seen criticism in the Clinic - a 'doping' chat - which is appalled at How Sky race?

Also, people might be much more aggresive vs. doping now than ever since the last few years have further shown how infected cycling was, and we all want a new clean beginning.

I used to be defending riders and teams given them the benifit of the doubt but now-a-days I have become much more cynical and realistic.

Not necessarily synonyms, no matter what people might think.

But by no means that this as an attack on Britain.

See above. NOT BRITISH. Couldn't care les. attack away.

Little quote from my part of the world.

A true Irishman will always give an Englishman a hand up from the ground. It's the best position from which to knee him in the head.

Oh and btw Ricco is a ***. No sympathy there. And tbh I havent seen alot given him sympathy - most think he is an utter joke. Same with Rasmussen.

There are plenty of 'scapegoat' 'easy target' comments in the Sky thread if you'd like to check. But at least you see him for what he is. Now there are plenty of pleasent guy dopers - Indurain was a gent of the road. Kelly was well respected and liked.

It's one of my key themes in here doper not = sociopath; they aren't all the same as Armstrong, who is quickly becoming the godwin's law of cycling...

 

[del1962]

You've never met any French fans, clearly.

In one race in Spain, death threats where made to a non-Spanish rider, rather unseemly imho

 

[D-Queued]

I'm not sure i see the connection here, Ferminal. Kerrison's personal rep in Australian swimming was pretty stellar before he ever went near a bike.

And frankly, you think the more well resourced, more clued up teams aren't now looking for someone similar from Rowing, swimming or suchlike?



Cadel won the tour. He fended off a proper Schleck and a contador to do it. One might think they've already got their payment...

For their sake, I hope not. What they are looking for won't be found there.

Sure Tudor Bompa introduced periodization as, arguably, the last major piece of the 'marginal gains' approach. But, that was so 1976.

As SKY has demonstrated, cycling has moved beyond a need to peak for a target event. Now, you just target them all and win them all.

No, rowing is too last century to offer anything to the new cycling.

Dave.

 

[SundayRider]

That's true of course, but I don't see what that has to do with the number of races won. If you think Froome, Wiggins and Porte are simply not talented enough to win races like P-N or Oman, then they shouldn't be winning any of them (outside occasional flukes).

If Wiggins had talent to win on the road he would have showed it long before 2009...

 

[martinvickers]

For their sake, I hope not. What they are looking for won't be found there.

You think not? I think New Zealand might be a rather good place to have a look...

Kerrison is an ex-rower too you know....

 

[Cimber]

1. Read this place a bit longer and you will have already learnt -
I'm NOT F***ING BRITISH. I'm IRISH.

'My' team is An Post, or it would be under your 'national' rules. My guys are Dan and Nico (guilty as charged there, they ARE my guys).

Fair enough, but point still stands regarding alot (not all) of the Sky fans.

2. Nobody opened a thread like this based on anyone but sky. No-one opned a thread like this based on Berti, for example.

Oh, your should have read this forum back in the prime days of Contador. There was indeed alot of those threads. There were also a threads on USP/DISC and Saxo.

Would that people would realise it's two different issues - but how often have we seen criticism in the Clinic - a 'doping' chat - which is appalled at How Sky race?

The criticism regarding the dull tactics is usually in the raod race forum, while the doping/exterterrestrial performance is in the clinic, and its often not the same persons arguing. So I think most people can differentiate the two issues, though people can still have an opinion on both matters.

Not necessarily synonyms, no matter what people might think.

I didnt use them as synonyms. If so it would make no sense to use both words.

There are plenty of 'scapegoat' 'easy target' comments in the Sky thread if you'd like to check. But at least you see him for what he is. Now there are plenty of pleasent guy dopers - Indurain was a gent of the road. Kelly was well respected and liked.

It's one of my key themes in here doper not = sociopath; they aren't all the same as Armstrong, who is quickly becoming the godwin's law of cycling...

I totally agree. Basso was and is a very nice person too. Armstrong would have been a **** even if he never doped.

 

[martinvickers]

In one race in Spain, death threats where made to a non-Spanish rider, rather unseemly imho

I believe Roche suffered something rather similar in italy in 1987

 

[martinvickers]

Fair enough, but point still stands regarding alot (not all) of the Sky fans.



Oh, your should have read this forum back in the prime days of Contador. There was indeed alot of those threads. There were also a threads on USP/DISC and Saxo..

Fair point, to an extent. Hard not to though with being neck deep in Puerto, and then actually pinged.

Still, we shall see over time, i suppose. I just found this whole thread (yourelf excluded of course) basically amusing. Lots of guys running round with their hair on fire...they sky, the sky is falling in!!

Doesn't compare with Froome dragging wiggins back up to nibili, then dropiing the lot like a bad smell - that freaked me out...this? No biggie, I'm afraid - nothing to justify the panti-wadding anyway.

 

[Cimber]

Fair point, to an extent. Hard not to though with being neck deep in Puerto, and then actually pinged.

Still, we shall see over time, i suppose. I just found this whole thread (yourelf excluded of course) basically amusing. Lots of guys running round with their hair on fire...they sky, the sky is falling in!!

Doesn't compare with Froome dragging wiggins back up to nibili, then dropiing the lot like a bad smell - that freaked me out...this? No biggie, I'm afraid - nothing to justify the panti-wadding anyway.

Yeah CI by itself doesnt raise my eyebrows either. Guess it was just the last straw for the OP.