Total Disillusionment

[ebandit]

doh!

Being "vocal" about being clean is some sort of evidence of cleanliness?

let's check this out.................above i answered another member who asked
similar

i have no knowledge that brad really is clean i remain sceptical.......but i hope

this thread is how members perceive the sport based on what little is known

the sad part is good guys are tarnished and if cheaters get away with it

Mark L

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

... and let's not forget The One who was disillusioned waaay before it was cool

(from another discussion)

What Museeuw now confesses, is what Edwig Van Hooydonck has always said. He's a tragic figure, having been a suberb rider at a young age, winning the Tour of Flanders twice (the first time aged 22!) and finishing 3rd twice in Paris-Roubaix. He ended his career at 30 (in 1996), disillusioned and saying mediocre cyclists suddenly going twice as fast as he did (it started about 1992-1993, when he ideed couldn't compete in the big races anymore).

It's for this reason that it's so important to get the cheaters to confess, as it is somewhat of a redemption to those riders doing it the clean way.

His words two or three years ago:
"I continued training like a beast, but I just couldn't keep up anymore. Rolf Aldag suddenly passed me in a time trial. From 1992-1993, all hell brake lose, except at our team where Jan Raas got in docters that pointed out the dangers of doping

Why are these stories always so damn exaggerated?

1992
1er du Grand Prix Ouverture La Marseillaise
1er de la 4eme etape du Etoile de Bessèges ()
2eme du Circuit des Ardennes Flamandes
11eme du Milan - San Remo
4eme du Fleche Brabançonne
3eme du Tour des Flandres
18eme du Paris Roubaix
10eme du Liège - Bastogne - Liège
10eme du Paris Tours

1993
17eme de la Classement Coupe du monde sur route avec 60 pts.
2eme du classement général du Tour d'Andalousie (Ruta Del Sol) (Classement Général)
1er du Fleche Brabançonne
3eme du classement général du 3 Jours De La Panne (Classement Général)
7eme du Tour des Flandres
6eme du Paris Roubaix
1er de la 3eme etape du Tour de Romandie (La Chaux-de-Fonds-Sion)
3eme de la 1ere etape du Tour de Picardie - Tour de l'Oise (Nogent sur oise - Beauvais)
3eme du classement général du Tour de Picardie - Tour de l'Oise (Classement général)
3eme de la 4eme etape du Tour de Picardie - Tour de l'Oise (Nogent-Sur-Oise - Creil CLM Ind)
1er de la 4eme etape du Tour du Luxembourg ()

1994
40eme de la Classement Coupe du monde sur route avec 20 pts.
8eme du classement général du Tour du Haut Var ()
5eme du Fleche Brabançonne
9eme du Tour des Flandres

1995
40eme de la Classement Coupe du monde sur route avec 13 pts.
2eme du Circuit Het Nieuwsblad - Circuit Het Volk
3eme du Clasica de Almeria
5eme du classement général du Tour de Murcie (Classement Général)
1er du Fleche Brabançonne
13eme du Paris Roubaix
2eme du Binche - Tournai - Binche
3eme du Druivenkoers - Overijse - Course du Raisin
7eme du Grand Prix Eddy Merckx

1996
4eme de la 1ere etape du Tour Méditerranéen (Carcassonne-Beziers)
9eme de la 5eme etape du Tour Méditerranéen (La Londe Les Maures - Mont Faron)
7eme de la 6eme etape du Tour Méditerranéen (Toulon - Marseille)
9eme du Trophée Laigueglia
5eme du Circuit Het Nieuwsblad - Circuit Het Volk
2eme du A travers les Flandres
2eme du Fleche Brabançonne

http://www.cyclingbase.com/palcoureurs.php?id=2429&idtitle=1

 

[dolophonic]

I'll still be watching.. regardless of the fact that many of the victories i have cheered on have been "Turbo charged".. I'm a fan.

One thing i notice here from posters like Martin is they say "i can neither confirm or deny...blah blah " yet keep trying to refute the opinions of the Clinic..
Remember 08 when Yens and Fab rode Valverde off their wheel in the mountains .. that was totally normal.
The fact that so many posters have cataloged their points against and you just come back with "yes but ..." feels a little disingenuous.

 

[martinvickers]

More than a few, we build them up then bring them down, the higher they rise the harder they fall

I can remember the press hoo-haa when Neil Lennon stuck a nut on Mary Poppins boot

Ah, don't kid yourself. everybody knew Shearer was a c*nt, and meant it. He just blackmailed the FA, simple as. Mind you, precious little sympathy over here for Lennon either.

 

[hrotha]

Sky may be doping or may not be (I don't think they are), but pleasew don't give me this protected team crp, in makes you seem like a complete ntter

How so?

We know Sky is in great terms with UCI and ASO. They're the only team we know to have met with UCI and ASO to share their data ahead of the Tour. We have McQuaid saying he'd attend Sky's... err... the winner's victory party after the Tour. We have ASO looking to buy the Tour of Britain. We have the UCI constantly telling us how important the British market is.

We also know the UCI protected US Postal.

How is this a conspiracy theory?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

USADA were uncommonly 'Eliot Ness' in the end - hell, even the Attorney General tried to save Lance.

FWIW, Britain, like Ireland, always has a few 'contrarians' in their ranks. Someone, somewhere may well go after Wiggins eventually. They ganged up on Vicky P quick enough. The Sun tried to make Laura Troot into a femme fetale, for pete's sake.

Hoy, however is untouchable.

The only thing Brits love more than a hero, is a scandal. And in third place, they love a redemption story. A Shakespearian race, really, the British.

The Irish, more schooled in misery, love a romantic tragedy. Especially if the 'hero' suffers and dies (see cú chulain, Parnell, O'Connell, 1916, losng to a Henry handball...).

Apparently, the BritIrish love fiction and fantasy novels too!

 

[martinvickers]

Apparently, the BritIrish love fiction and fantasy novels too!

Take it up with one of them, then. Otherwise, stop trolling.

 

[Hugh Januss]

let's check this out.................above i answered another member who asked
similar

i have no knowledge that brad really is clean i remain sceptical.......but i hope

this thread is how members perceive the sport based on what little is known

the sad part is good guys are tarnished and if cheaters get away with it

Mark L

What we have suspected and are finding out every day (see Schumacher story today) suggests that the recent history of cycling is light on the first group but loaded with the latter.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Take it up with one of them, then. Otherwise, stop trolling.

Yeah, 'cause only martin is qualified to speak to what the Brits and Irish like.

 

[martinvickers]

Yeah, 'cause only martin is qualified to speak to what the Brits and Irish like.

You miss the point rather wonderfully. The baiting/trolling was in the use of neologism BritIrish. Clearly intended to offend and produce emotional reaction.

If you'd like to have another attempt at saying something useful, be my guest.

 

[BroDeal]

You miss the point rather wonderfully. The baiting/trolling was in the use of neologism BritIrish. Clearly intended to offend and produce emotional reaction.

If you'd like to have another attempt at saying something useful, be my guest.

Get back under your bridge, troll. This is the total-disillusionment thread, not the Sky-fanboy-I-cannot-believe-anyone-would-accuse-my-team-of-doping" thread.

 

[horsinabout]

Well there are those with the most ambivalent lexicon.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Why are these stories always so damn exaggerated?

Robbed TT, simply robbed.

 

[MarkvW]

Is anybody ready yet to take the final step to total disillusionment? Are you ready to FINALLY realize the obvious truth:

That Lance Armstrong, as awful and as ugly as he is, is a true reflection of professional cycling?

That Manolo Saiz embodies the "beautiful sport?"

That Puerto, Festina, and USPS/Discovery are the norm for pro cycling, and not the exception?

Bwahahahahaha . . . . .!

If you're not yet totally disillusioned, maybe you can buy a race from Vino! . . . or blame it all on McQuaid!

 

[Ripper]

You miss the point rather wonderfully. The baiting/trolling was in the use of neologism BritIrish. Clearly intended to offend and produce emotional reaction.

If you'd like to have another attempt at saying something useful, be my guest.

1. Regarding the above, only if you are thin skinned, which I am not sure if you are or not.

2. You seem to have far too much time on your hands. Retired lawyer?

 

[martinvickers]

1. Regarding the above, only if you are thin skinned, which I am not sure if you are or not.

I said intended. I didn't say it succeeded. I dislike the implication that I am a fan of Sky and defend them on nationality grounds. I'm not, and I don't. I simply have an aversion to 'going with the flow', and a preference for facts and reasoning, and investigation, over hunches and snark.

I believe Dan Martin is clean, a view I don't tend to express anywhere near as explicitly re Sky riders, for good reason. And he's actually my nationality. I get very little grief for that, oddly.

And for the record, I don't regard being called British insulting at all. Simply incorrect. Repeatedly doing so after being informed otherwise is however tantamount to calling me a liar. That I don't tend to accept quietly. Several people are on ignore for that.

2. You seem to have far too much time on your hands. Retired lawyer?

Don't bait ;-) No, chance would be a fine thing. The nature of my work is frantic activity, followed by periods of calm. And as it often follows a political timetable, breaks for the legislatures tend to be quiet for me. As sure as eggs is eggs, April will be appalling, midnight oil stuff... c'est la vie, c'est la guerre...

 

[BroDeal]

1. Regarding the above, only if you are thin skinned, which I am not sure if you are or not.

The thickness of his skin varies. It is thick if he is handing out the insults and gets very thin when he takes return fire.

 

[BroDeal]

I said intended. I didn't say it succeeded. I dislike the implication that I am a fan of Sky and defend them on nationality grounds. I'm not, and I don't. I simply have an aversion to 'going with the flow', and a preference for facts and reasoning, and investigation, over hunches and snark.

Sounds too much like Armstrong homers who denied they were fans of his but felt it was necessary to constantly defend him and voice doubts about the evidence. They thought they were the resonable ones too. The rest of us recognized them for the loons they were.

If it look like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck but denies it then you know it is not just a duck but a duck so huge it would make Ted Nugent proud to have mounted in his den.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Take it up with one of them, then. Otherwise, stop trolling.

Aren't you BritIrish?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

You miss the point rather wonderfully. The baiting/trolling was in the use of neologism BritIrish. Clearly intended to offend and produce emotional reaction.

If you'd like to have another attempt at saying something useful, be my guest.

Why I never...

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I said intended. I didn't say it succeeded. I dislike the implication that I am a fan of Sky and defend them on nationality grounds. I'm not, and I don't. I simply have an aversion to 'going with the flow', and a preference for facts and reasoning, and investigation, over hunches and snark.

I believe Dan Martin is clean, a view I don't tend to express anywhere near as explicitly re Sky riders, for good reason. And he's actually my nationality. I get very little grief for that, oddly.

And for the record, I don't regard being called British insulting at all. Simply incorrect. Repeatedly doing so after being informed otherwise is however tantamount to calling me a liar. That I don't tend to accept quietly. Several people are on ignore for that.



Don't bait ;-) No, chance would be a fine thing. The nature of my work is frantic activity, followed by periods of calm. And as it often follows a political timetable, breaks for the legislatures tend to be quiet for me. As sure as eggs is eggs, April will be appalling, midnight oil stuff... c'est la vie, c'est la guerre...

The new "I'm not an Armstrong fan, but..."

It's almost like he thinks we just started posting here this week. He also smells funny...

 

[Netserk]

Stay on topic. It is not allowed to bait/flame each other.

Or face the consequences

 

[lean mean &green]

I said intended. I didn't say it succeeded. I dislike the implication that I am a fan of Sky and defend them on nationality grounds. I'm not, and I don't. I simply have an aversion to 'going with the flow', and a preference for facts and reasoning, and investigation, over hunches and snark.

leaning toward a divergent viewpoint would be a bias which is likely to lead to mistakes . i.e. not particularly sound "reasoning". at least you aren't totally blind to it which is a small plus.

i think what you refer to as hunches is often just inductive reasoning. in other words, many specific cases are used to develop general rules. it can lead to mistakes but this sky cleanliness debate isn't really one of them. you demand a more deductive approach but unfortunately it isn't an option. it's actually the wrong tool for the job. to simplify it further, clinic regulars have seen enough doping cases, behaviors, cover-ups, etc to be able to develop a few somewhat reliable guidelines. it isn't a perfect system but it is by no means the absence of reason, quite the opposite actually.

 

[MarkvW]

leaning toward a divergent viewpoint would be a bias which is likely to lead to mistakes . i.e. not particularly sound "reasoning". at least you aren't totally blind to it which is a small plus.

i think what you refer to as hunches is often just inductive reasoning. in other words, many specific cases are used to develop general rules. it can lead to mistakes but this sky cleanliness debate isn't really one of them. you demand a more deductive approach but unfortunately it isn't an option. it's actually the wrong tool for the job. to simplify it further, clinic regulars have seen enough doping cases, behaviors, cover-ups, etc to be able to develop a few somewhat reliable guidelines. it isn't a perfect system but it is by no means the absence of reason, quite the opposite actually.

"leaning toward a divergent viewpoint would be a bias which is likely to lead to mistakes"?

Do you really mean that?

 

[Hugh Januss]

Stay on topic. It is not allowed to bait/flame each other.

Or face the consequences

Ahah, thought I detected some pointlessly deleted posts.
Nothing says over moderation like over moderation.