Tour 2012: Route Rumours / Our wishes

[The Hitch]

Assuming he's allowed to ride, could the (relatively) easier parcours tempt Contador to try the Giro-Tour double again?

Not in a million years. This parcors is good for him.

If hes serious about winning Vuelta too then this is very good for him, because if things go well, he can just crush it in the 3 itts and 1 or 2 road stages, defend in 1 or 2 others and roll in behind Daniel Navarro the other 15 days of the race.

A lot easier than the last gt he won.

And so he can maybe go to the Vuelta with some good form too.

 

[The Hitch]

By losing to Cobo in a totally underwhelming Vuelta?

You make me laugh silly boy. That's like claiming Mollema now clearly surpasses Gesink because he was 4th in the Vuelta and Gesink never achieved such a thing

Since you make a big deal out of how Gesink was the 2nd strongest rider in the Vuelta, you should also, rather than degrade Froome with (lost to Cobo) point out that Froome was the strongest rider in his race.

He lost by 13 seconds that came from time bonuses, a poor ttt and having to ride 90% of the race (im talking mountain stages here) at the level of his team leader and spent much of the race setting pace for his team leader and lost time cos of it.

Its not like Froome losing to Cobo was his best performance. Yes Gesink fell, but also take into account that Froome lost god knows how much time and effort working for Wiggins. At least Gesink lined up as the leader.

Without his own baggage, Froome would have won the Vuelta easy.

 

[maltiv]

Gesink had a horrid year, yet is 16th in the World Tour ranking and top 30 in the CQ ranking.

Quite an achievement I'd say... above Froome in both rankings obviously. But that's no suprise.. since Gesink is CLEARLY a better rider

World Tour ranking:

14: Froome
15: Vino
16: Gesink

 

[dabar85]

more that i am watching this route, one thing is obvious. If some speculations are right on stage to bellegarde we have grand colombier to destroy the field, then biche which is hard climb and easy one. To toussuire there are madeleine, croix de fer and then not such a hard climb to toussuire. In pyrenees to luchon if there are tourmalet to destroy then hourquette, val louron which is hard climb and peyresoude and stage to peyragudes with bales before peyresoude aso want action from 50-60 km before finish because if you attack on the last climb little space can be made. That's why they probably put itt to besancon to put climbers in situation where they need to attack early, and there is not flat sections in between. But i still think that we are at least one hard(queen) mountain stage short and next year'tour is a bit of poker for the organizers

 

[Francois the Postman]

This route seems one of the reasons why I will be more and more reluctant to state categorically that "rider x" can't win the TdF in the years to come

Something in the back of my mind always presumed that a GT would throw a decent route at the riders that would separate the wheat from the chaff, or that any rider under investigation for last year's edition would know at the start of the season if they would be entitled to ride, and adjust their schedule accordingly.

It seems the back of my mind is -increasingly- wrong. I am starting to put people in my "possible" column that I feel have next to no right being there. Odd.

BTW, I am slowly catching up with the second half of this year's season and only just discovered that Cadel won the TdF

A belated congrats to ACF & Co, for standing by your guy despite the pounding your claim got here over the years, and making just about all of us know-it-alls eat our words. I kinda wish I hadn't missed out on the Forum buzz, as even months later it was hard not to form a mental picture what the ACF household would look like "on the day". "Mental" probably being the operative word there (inna good way). Keep on peddling mate.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

This route seems one of the reasons why I will be more and more reluctant to state categorically that "rider x" can't win the TdF in the years to come

Something in the back of my mind always presumed that a GT would throw a decent route at the riders that would separate the wheat from the chaff, or that any rider under investigation for last year's edition would know at the start of the season if they would be entitled to ride, and adjust their schedule accordingly.

It seems the back of my mind is -increasingly- wrong. I am starting to put people in my "possible" column that I feel have next to no right being there. Odd.

BTW, I am slowly catching up with the second half of this year's season and only just discovered that Cadel won the TdF

A belated congrats to ACF & Co, for standing by your guy despite the pounding your claim got here over the years, and making just about all of us know-it-alls eat our words. I kinda wish I hadn't missed out on the Forum buzz, as even months later it was hard not to form a mental picture what the ACF household would look like "on the day". "Mental" probably being the operative word there (inna good way). Keep on peddling mate.

Sometimes, i really need to concentrate to understand your posts.

 

[Francois the Postman]

The entire Cadel's vs Contador's ITT discussion has been moved here:

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=15551

 

[Magnus]

It seems a lot of people fuss about lack of mountains.
As I see it stages 7, 8, 10 and 14 could turn out to be mountainous.
Any other?

 

[Kwibus]

Sometimes, i really need to concentrate to understand your posts.

I'm really happy Francois is back. I thought he was another great poster that left this forum. Glad that it was just temporary.

 

[roundabout]

It seems a lot of people fuss about lack of mountains.
As I see it stages 7, 8, 10 and 14 could turn out to be mountainous.
Any other?

That would depend on the definition of "mountainous" stages.

Yes, there should be 10-11 climbs on these stages but 6 of them should be category 2.

 

[BroDeal]

It seems a lot of people fuss about lack of mountains.
As I see it stages 7, 8, 10 and 14 could turn out to be mountainous.
Any other?

If they were really mountainous then you would not be using the phrase "could turn out to be mountainous." It would be obvious.

 

[BroDeal]

Sum up the 2012 course as concisely as possible. Here's mine:

Tour de France 2012, a course so boring Levi Leipheimer could win it.

 

[Luke Schmid]

Sum up the 2012 course as concisely as possible. Here's mine:

Tour de France 2012, a course so boring Levi Leipheimer could win it.

I laughed and then realised that it is not really funny to have a bad course.

I have been busy not seen too much of the route but from the comments I have seen it does not seem good. A real pity.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Hardly hilly at all.

I made on similar to that. I is somewhat hilly but doesn't hae anything on on Grenoble.

Yes I can - the Tour 2012 course will be far easier then the Vuelta 11 and it is not much more difficult than a Dauphine .

Wiggins proved the groupthink here wrong plenty times this season - winning the Dauphine, 5th on the Angliru - both of which were considered impossible - lucky that a whole host of great climbers and favourites all turned up at the Vuelta our of form - and werent just completely owned

I guess the big difference in 2012 will be in how much difference there is between him and Evans when they are both on full form. Evans I think hustled the Dauphin, but Wiggo wasnt at 100% either. Wiggins was definitely climbing better in the Vuelta. I think these days they are pretty well matched, except on a Amstel Gold type finish.

If they have any sense, they will work together and let the TT decide, that will not be too exciting a race, but for one year, i would not care. Assuming no Contador.

I do believe Wiggins was on his best or was closer to his best form at the Dauphine than Evans. If Cadl didn't take it so easy on the final bit he would of beaten Tony in Grenoble. No doubt Martin is the best time triallist in the world but Wiggins didn't and couldn't of beaten Tony in the Dauphine Grenoble ITT.

The filed at la vuelta was not superior to the to the filed of the Dauphine. Rodriguez was on much better form at the Vuelta. He dropped Wiggins on both climbs. Wiggins outclimbed Rodriguez at the Vuelta but I'd still say Rodriguez is a better climber. You are also using Wiggins as a measuring stick for quality of climbing where Rodriguez, Anton, Nibali & Scarponi were all too tired or lacked any form on the climbs. also the main contenders at the Vuelta were to Wiggins and Froome were JJ Cobo & Mollema.

Why is it Gesink > Froom????

Gesink never came close of becoming second in a GT

Gesink is a far better climber. He dropped some very good quality climbers in the Vuelta 2009 and I also feel we haven't seen the best from him. Gesink also climbs well at most races he does. other than the Vuelta, Froome has done **** all regarding his climbing in other races.

 

[zigzag wanderer]

I do believe Wiggins was on his best or was closer to his best form at the Dauphine than Evans. If Cadl didn't take it so easy on the final bit he would of beaten Tony in Grenoble. No doubt Martin is the best time triallist in the world but Wiggins didn't and couldn't of beaten Tony in the Dauphine Grenoble ITT.

Have you got the names confused here? Wiggins was level with Martin at the last split and lost 11 seconds on a wet downhill section. Evans was already a minute down at the first split and finished 1.20 down

 

[Woody22]

Have you got the names confused here? Wiggins was level with Martin at the last split and lost 11 seconds on a wet downhill section. Evans was already a minute down at the first split and finished 1.20 down

No, in Evans case ACF is refering to the Tour TT which was held on the same route.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Have you got the names confused here? Wiggins was level with Martin at the last split and lost 11 seconds on a wet downhill section. Evans was already a minute down at the first split and finished 1.20 down

I think ACF is making the bold assumption that Wiggins was in top form at the Dauphine and comparing his ITT there, to Cadel's at Le Tour, since the respective races used the same course.

IMO, you are correct to suggest that it was Wiggin's caution that stopped him beating Martin at the Dauphine.

However, it is the fact that Evans possibly could have beaten Martin at Le Tour, (although, I don't necessarily agree with ACF that Cadel had taking his foot off the gas) that I find truly jaw dropping, given the German's crushing dominance in the discipline, post Tour.

 

[Woody22]

Good route for Cadel's bid for back to back! ACF likes! It will force the climbers to attack at every oportunity now. More mTF"s doesn't necessarily balance racing.

You seem a lot happier than you were when last years route was announced. Funny that Evans went on to win after your reaction.

 

[Woody22]

I think ACF is making the bold assumption that Wiggins was in top form at the Dauphine and comparing his ITT there, to Cadel's at Le Tour, since the respective races used the same course.

IMO, you are correct to suggest that it was Wiggin's caution that stopped him beating Martin at the Dauphine.

However, it is the fact that Evans possibly could have beaten Martin at Le Tour, (although, I don't necessarily agree with ACF that Cadel had taking his foot off the gas) that I find truly jaw dropping, given the German's crushing dominance in the discipline, post Tour.

Then you need to go back and watch the TT again and take note of the splits between Martin and Evans and in particular how they decreased at each check. The gap went out from 2 seconds to the final margin of 7 seconds in the final 4 km, which is when BMC stopped giving Evans split info so he wouldn't push too hard and risk crashing.

And you are right about the dominant form Martin was/is in. Makes Evans ride the more remarkable, especially as he didn't have the benefit of saving something for the TT like Martin did.

 

[zigzag wanderer]

I think ACF is making the bold assumption that Wiggins was in top form at the Dauphine and comparing his ITT there, to Cadel's at Le Tour, since the respective races used the same course.

IMO, you are correct to suggest that it was Wiggin's caution that stopped him beating Martin at the Dauphine.

However, it is the fact that Evans possibly could have beaten Martin at Le Tour, (although, I don't necessarily agree with ACF that Cadel had taking his foot off the gas) that I find truly jaw dropping, given the German's crushing dominance in the discipline, post Tour.

In that case I think ACF is half right - Wiggins could have won at the Dauphine, Evans could have won at the TdF.

While I doubt Wiggins was in absolute peak form at the Dauphine, I think it's a fair assumption he was closer to it than Evans was.

 

[Mellow Velo]

In that case I think ACF is half right - Wiggins could have won at the Dauphine, Evans could have won at the TdF.

While I doubt Wiggins was in absolute peak form at the Dauphine, I think it's a fair assumption he was closer to it than Evans was.

I agree......

 

[Winterfold]

ACF "where Rodriguez, Anton, Nibali & Scarponi were all too tired or lacked any form on the climbs. "

It's curious that they were all so off form - the Giro was a long time ago. There is the possibility that they were just owned - but there were too many new faces and riders you wouldnt expect to see hanging in.

I agree the dauphine had a better field - but I think the Vuelta was raced harder - clinically harder in some cases.

 

[auscyclefan94]

ACF "where Rodriguez, Anton, Nibali & Scarponi were all too tired or lacked any form on the climbs. "

It's curious that they were all so off form - the Giro was a long time ago. There is the possibility that they were just owned - but there were too many new faces and riders you wouldnt expect to see hanging in.

I agree the dauphine had a better field - but I think the Vuelta was raced harder - clinically harder in some cases.

Rodriguez, Anton, Nibali, Scarponi are all known as very good climbers. The Giro wrecked many riders seasons because it was so fricken hard. All those guys has very long season. Wiggins did not have such a heavy race schedule compared to those guys. I don't agree the Vuelta was raced harder. The racing was very defensive tempo riding and the course suited Wiggins as other than Angliru all the climbs were rather timid or raced rather timidly.

 

[King Of The Wolds]

other than Angliru all the climbs were rather timid or raced rather timidly.

Raced timidly? Who was racing timidly? Froome and Wiggins got on the front and absolutely nailed it. The others held on for dear life. What was timid about that?

 

[roundabout]

While the needlessly long TT is no doubt an advantage for Sky even this lame edition of the course will have 2-3 stages more difficult overall (as Angliru is much harder than any of the Tour finishing climbs) than any single one in the last Vuelta. It remains to be seen how well Wiggins/Froome will do over successive HC and 1 category climbs.