Tour de France 2017 Stage 15: Laissac-l'Église - LePuy

[Escarabajo]

Red, the Tour was on the line. It was either go for podium or the win.

The alternate outcome that you are asking is using the team members more properly. Put them on the red. Once they were out ride hard yourself. Why wait until Froome arrive to the group for the attack. If the others didn't want to cooperate with him then Bardet had the choice to slow down and save himself for the podium or keep going a la Cadel in 2011 Tour. My 2 cents!

 

[roundabout]

Mollema soloing was probably the only way he was going to win today, so he had everything to gain and little to lose.

 

[Escarabajo]

The only reason why Bardet is getting most of the criticism is because he had the numbers and he was already second last year. That's all.

Not that the others don't have any blame, but why go to the front when there were 4-5 AG2R riders at the front?

 

[roundabout]

Re:

The only reason why Bardet is getting most of the criticism is because he had the numbers and he was already second last year. That's all.

Not that the others don't have any blame, but why go to the front when there were 4-5 AG2R riders at the front?

Because the pace is not fast enough to beat Froome to the top of the climb.

But maybe it was too fast for most of them to do something.

 

[bob.a.feet]

If Froome, Aru,and Bardet perform the same as they did in Stage 13 last year, Aru will lose 2 minutes to Froome, while Bardet will lose 1:43. Obviously these are only estimates and they could perform entirely different, but it just gives us an idea.

This means that Aru will have to gain 2:18 on Froome, Bardet will need 2:06. However unlikely, these time gaps are not impossible to gain on the final two days in the Alps. This TT also has a climb which could help limit the losses of Aru and Bardet, and if either is in yellow they could be motivated to perform better than usual (Contador in 2007). All this is fairly pointless if they don't even get in yellow in the first place. Here's hoping for plenty of attacks in the coming days.



Note: I'm not forgetting Uran, he just wasn't taking part in last years Tour so I don't know what to expect - although he will probably perform better than Aru and Bardet.

 

[Kwibus]

Re: Re:

Who's saying anything about Bardet soloing?

No one. For my part I addressed two possibilities in response to the "why didn't Bardet just attack" (my paraphrasing) posts. If he attacked, he would have either succeeded alone, or have been marked by some number of the favorites, the latter which would have neutralized the advantage. If there's another likely outcome to an attack by Bardet 30k from the line I'd like to hear your take.

A possible outcome would be putting extra time on Froome by having his domestiques go all out for up to one kilometer instead of riding tempo, then attacking to make a selection in the group, which would increase the odds of finding allies with a common cause who would cooperate until the finish line (because they would benefit from putting time on Froome and Landa, not to mention any other contender who got dropped by Bardet's attack).

Was it guaranteed to succeed? Of course not. But even what I'm describing above wouldn't have been a crazy risk or anything. With a Tour possibly on the line, Bardet should totally have taken that risk. Where the hell is he going to find a more favourable race situation to exploit?

This.

 

[bob.a.feet]

Re: Re:

Who's saying anything about Bardet soloing?

No one. For my part I addressed two possibilities in response to the "why didn't Bardet just attack" (my paraphrasing) posts. If he attacked, he would have either succeeded alone, or have been marked by some number of the favorites, the latter which would have neutralized the advantage. If there's another likely outcome to an attack by Bardet 30k from the line I'd like to hear your take.

A possible outcome would be putting extra time on Froome by having his domestiques go all out for up to one kilometer instead of riding tempo, then attacking to make a selection in the group, which would increase the odds of finding allies with a common cause who would cooperate until the finish line (because they would benefit from putting time on Froome and Landa, not to mention any other contender who got dropped by Bardet's attack).

Was it guaranteed to succeed? Of course not. But even what I'm describing above wouldn't have been a crazy risk or anything. With a Tour possibly on the line, Bardet should totally have taken that risk. Where the hell is he going to find a more favourable race situation to exploit?

This.

If they keep riding like this, there going to suddenly realize they've ran out of stages.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

The only reason why Bardet is getting most of the criticism is because he had the numbers and he was already second last year. That's all.

Not that the others don't have any blame, but why go to the front when there were 4-5 AG2R riders at the front?

Because the pace is not fast enough to beat Froome to the top of the climb.

But maybe it was too fast for most of them to do something.

Let's put it this way, if Bardet didn't have any team members with him I would agree with you.

 

[Jagartrott]

You have 4 team mates with you, you have one up the road, you have competitors with you that have everything to gain from distancing Froome, Froome himself is down to one team mate (Landa), you're on a hard climb and *still* you decide not to risk it. I find that amazing. Even more amazing is the fact that people here are defending that stance (and calling other opinions 'daft').

 

[Moviefan1203]

Bardet really showed that he is a man of honor and integrity. When Froome had the mechanical and was nearly a minute back, he could have blown the race to bits. But he didn't. It was the right thing to do. Showed his character.

 

[johnymax]

Re: Re:

Ulissi's shape right now is a big surprise and he even played his cards well. Gallopin, probably the only guy in the group who had a shot at outsprinting him didn't really work, at least he still lost the sprint for 2nd place.
Mollema played it nice and Barguil is just in monster shape right now.
Aru wasn't really suffering, but to me it looked like he didn't have great legs today, for him it was about not loosing time and mostly damage control.
AG2R made a great move, but failed to pull the trigger at the right moment, hard to tell if Bardet should have gone on the attack when Froome was dropped.

Gallopin says after the race he rode flat out, and that Mollema simply did a big number riding so hard alone.

Ok, maybe it was just my impression, Ulissi also gave tons of credit to Mollema for going all out.

Roglic on the other hand is very disappointed there was no collaboration in the chasing group. I don't know if he was talking about the bigger group before the last little ramp or the group of four at the end. Either way there were riders clearly skipping turns also in the final chasing group of four. But I don't blame them. They were all at the limit or close to it. Big props to Mollema for a great ride really. His riding style is a little too conservative for my taste but today he was a deserving winner. He was also the rider who did the most work on the first climb of the day, when they were chasing Barguil and co.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

You have 4 team mates with you, you have one up the road, you have competitors with you that have everything to gain from distancing Froome, Froome himself is down to one team mate (Landa), you're on a hard climb and *still* you decide not to risk it. I find that amazing. Even more amazing is the fact that people here are defending that stance (and calling other opinions 'daft').

This. I couldn't say it any better (and besides English is not my first language ).

 

[Bolder]

Re:

Bardet really showed that he is a man of honor and integrity. When Froome had the mechanical and was nearly a minute back, he could have blown the race to bits. But he didn't. It was the right thing to do. Showed his character.

Exactly. A lesser man would have gone full gas and won the Tour de France. But not, not Romain. He'd rather lose with his dignity intact.

(You are joking, right? Right? Just making sure.)

Seriously, though. I think he/AG2R WAS attacking but no one had the legs to distance Froome. Landa and Barguil are clearly the top climbers right now, and Froome seems to be energized by the talk about Landa being on better form. So Landa could drop back, wait for Froome, pace him back to the group and keep right on rolling.

For an attack to have worked it would have required coordination between riders of about 7 nationalities, which will NEVER happen.

 

[Moviefan1203]

Re: Re:

Bardet really showed that he is a man of honor and integrity. When Froome had the mechanical and was nearly a minute back, he could have blown the race to bits. But he didn't. It was the right thing to do. Showed his character.

Exactly. A lesser man would have gone full gas and won the Tour de France. But not, not Romain. He'd rather lose with his dignity intact.

(You are joking, right? Right? Just making sure.)

Seriously, though. I think he/AG2R WAS attacking but no one had the legs to distance Froome. Landa and Barguil are clearly the top climbers right now, and Froome seems to be energized by the talk about Landa being on better form. So Landa could drop back, wait for Froome, pace him back to the group and keep right on rolling.

For an attack to have worked it would have required coordination between riders of about 7 nationalities, which will NEVER happen.

Joking? No, I am not. Besides the ethical component, do you really think he wants to be the guy that finally beat Froome in the Tour simply because of a mechanical? I would hope his answer to this would be no.

 

[Bolder]

Re: Re:

Bardet really showed that he is a man of honor and integrity. When Froome had the mechanical and was nearly a minute back, he could have blown the race to bits. But he didn't. It was the right thing to do. Showed his character.

Exactly. A lesser man would have gone full gas and won the Tour de France. But not, not Romain. He'd rather lose with his dignity intact.

(You are joking, right? Right? Just making sure.)

Seriously, though. I think he/AG2R WAS attacking but no one had the legs to distance Froome. Landa and Barguil are clearly the top climbers right now, and Froome seems to be energized by the talk about Landa being on better form. So Landa could drop back, wait for Froome, pace him back to the group and keep right on rolling.

For an attack to have worked it would have required coordination between riders of about 7 nationalities, which will NEVER happen.

Joking? No, I am not. Besides the ethical component, do you really think he wants to be the guy that finally beat Froome in the Tour simply because of a mechanical? I would hope his answer to this would be no.

Erm...oh well...never mind. There's mechanicals and then there's mechanicals. It's not black and white, and today's situation was one where it was fair game. At least to me and many others. Flat tires are part of racing, whereas, say, catching your handlebars on a bidon waved by a spectator or running into a moto that stops unexpectedly...

 

[Valv.Piti]

Literally got into the bar when Froome punctured or whatever happened. Then I see the whole Ag2R squad in a very small bunch, I bet they were 8, going hard into the last climb. Yes, we are guaranteed more than just good breakaway action. Or so I thought. Shallow attack by Bardet when the climb had flattened and Froome had everything under control.

And ofc I just saw some UAE rider pull the bunch down to the finish just to piss me more off....

 

[armchairclimber]

When Bardet did put a dig in, Uran jumped on his wheel. I guess Bardet calculated that towing Uran up that hill with a 30km run in wasn't that much of a smart thing to do. Perhaps, just perhaps, his legs said "uh oh, bad idea".

 

[Moviefan1203]

Re: Re:

Bardet really showed that he is a man of honor and integrity. When Froome had the mechanical and was nearly a minute back, he could have blown the race to bits. But he didn't. It was the right thing to do. Showed his character.

Exactly. A lesser man would have gone full gas and won the Tour de France. But not, not Romain. He'd rather lose with his dignity intact.

(You are joking, right? Right? Just making sure.)

Seriously, though. I think he/AG2R WAS attacking but no one had the legs to distance Froome. Landa and Barguil are clearly the top climbers right now, and Froome seems to be energized by the talk about Landa being on better form. So Landa could drop back, wait for Froome, pace him back to the group and keep right on rolling.

For an attack to have worked it would have required coordination between riders of about 7 nationalities, which will NEVER happen.

Joking? No, I am not. Besides the ethical component, do you really think he wants to be the guy that finally beat Froome in the Tour simply because of a mechanical? I would hope his answer to this would be no.

Erm...oh well...never mind. There's mechanicals and then there's mechanicals. It's not black and white, and today's situation was one where it was fair game. At least to me and many others. Flat tires are part of racing, whereas, say, catching your handlebars on a bidon waved by a spectator or running into a moto that stops unexpectedly...

Obviously, we're just not going to agree here. But, just to give you some insight on my thought process, I don't feel taking advantage of the yellow jersey when he has a mechanical is the proper way to race. If you can't beat him on a level playing field, taking advantage of his mechanical just doesn't sit right with me.

 

[DanielSong39]

Too many mechanicals if you ask me and at some point it's not bad luck any more.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

When Bardet did put a dig in, Uran jumped on his wheel. I guess Bardet calculated that towing Uran up that hill with a 30km run in wasn't that much of a smart thing to do. Perhaps, just perhaps, his legs said "uh oh, bad idea".

Nobody is arguing your point at that moment. We are debating his/AG2R decision before that attack.

 

[Alexandre B.]

Re: Re:

Ulissi's shape right now is a big surprise and he even played his cards well. Gallopin, probably the only guy in the group who had a shot at outsprinting him didn't really work, at least he still lost the sprint for 2nd place.
Mollema played it nice and Barguil is just in monster shape right now.
Aru wasn't really suffering, but to me it looked like he didn't have great legs today, for him it was about not loosing time and mostly damage control.
AG2R made a great move, but failed to pull the trigger at the right moment, hard to tell if Bardet should have gone on the attack when Froome was dropped.

Gallopin says after the race he rode flat out, and that Mollema simply did a big number riding so hard alone.

Ok, maybe it was just my impression, Ulissi also gave tons of credit to Mollema for going all out.

Roglic on the other hand is very disappointed there was no collaboration in the chasing group. I don't know if he was talking about the bigger group before the last little ramp or the group of four at the end. Either way there were riders clearly skipping turns also in the final chasing group of four. But I don't blame them. They were all at the limit or close to it. Big props to Mollema for a great ride really. His riding style is a little too conservative for my taste but today he was a deserving winner. He was also the rider who did the most work on the first climb of the day, when they were chasing Barguil and co.

Barguil explained that he had orders to wait for a possible Matthews come back, hence why he missed some turns.

 

[Blanco]

Re:

Always great to see the "why don't they just ride faster" crew every July.

Sometimes, you can't. Cooperation isn't that simple. Trust isn't granted. Long run ins complicate all the above.

Today shouldn't have been as exciting as it was. Enjoy it.

What cooperation? Guy still had 2 teammates with him and one further up the road and he let his biggest rival to come back! He had 6 (SIX!) at the bottom!!! Use them all and attack yourself at the hardest point, and that one up front waits at the top of the hill. That's what real champion would do. If he has somebody with him, even better. And then if Froome comes back, chapeau to him. This way it wasn't that hard.

 

[Blanco]

Re: Re:

Bardet really showed that he is a man of honor and integrity. When Froome had the mechanical and was nearly a minute back, he could have blown the race to bits. But he didn't. It was the right thing to do. Showed his character.

Exactly. A lesser man would have gone full gas and won the Tour de France. But not, not Romain. He'd rather lose with his dignity intact.

(You are joking, right? Right? Just making sure.)

Seriously, though. I think he/AG2R WAS attacking but no one had the legs to distance Froome. Landa and Barguil are clearly the top climbers right now, and Froome seems to be energized by the talk about Landa being on better form. So Landa could drop back, wait for Froome, pace him back to the group and keep right on rolling.

For an attack to have worked it would have required coordination between riders of about 7 nationalities, which will NEVER happen.

Joking? No, I am not. Besides the ethical component, do you really think he wants to be the guy that finally beat Froome in the Tour simply because of a mechanical? I would hope his answer to this would be no.

Oh if you think Bardet waited you're delusional. He was just not brave or smart enough, or both.

 

[classicomano]

I had to laugh at Yates who's sucking wheels all Tour and today pushed his wheel over the line at the very last moment to win that meaningless sprint against Froome. Classic Orica.

 

[Arked]

Re: Re:

Oh if you think Bardet waited you're delusional. He was just not brave or smart enough, or both.

Or he was simply not strong enough today. Which is the right answer most of the times when half of the forum cries for attacks...