Tour de France 2017 Stage 17: La Mure > Serre-Chevalier 183k

[Casperov96]

Re:

Team Sky might have lost the lead in the team classification, if anybody cares about that :lol:

What? They had Froome and Landa in the yellow group and Nieve 6 minutes back alongside Vuillermoz - they should have gained time on AG2R today, no?

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

lol. Meintjes and Yates really are leeches.

It's pretty hard to hop on the front and pull if you can't

Yeah, that must be why they've taken about two pulls between them in their entire careers.

Orica and UAE always ride in a painfully negative way it seems.

That's unfair to Yates, he's won some great stages with attacks- Vuelta last year, PN and Romandie this year.

Yeah, in that respect he's quite aggressive. He will attack for sure, but that's not quite the same as taking pulls from a reduced group, when there is the option of sitting on instead.

Like Meintjes, he's happy just to sit at the back of the group and react to others making the racing.

 

[bob.a.feet]

Re: Re:

Ridiculous to suggest Urán is first tier based on this. Aru aint either. Bardet? The closest to Froome - in this race - but not 1st tier in my book either.

Which GC riders are 1st tier in GTs, in your opinion?

(I'm not saying Romain is 1st tier, I'm just curious)

At this point, only one and his name is Christopher Froome. Nairo is still the closest.

Most years, although Froome was dominating the Tour, we still believed that other riders were on the same level as him. Convincing ourselves that if Contador of Quintana arrived if peak shape they could beat him. Now we've gotten a dose of reality watching Froome dominate the Tour without even attacking. Help us Tommy D, you're our only hope.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Ridiculous to suggest Urán is first tier based on this. Aru aint either. Bardet? The closest to Froome - in this race - but not 1st tier in my book either.

Which GC riders are 1st tier in GTs, in your opinion?

(I'm not saying Romain is 1st tier, I'm just curious)

At this point, only one and his name is Christopher Froome. Nairo is still the closest.

This.

Froome's winning this race despite being below his best. He's a level above, and has been for the past few seasons. Based on this season Porte and Valverde have been comfortably the two best stage racers, so they could make an argument to be considered. While Quintana has finished 1st, 2nd and 3rd in his previous three GTs.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re: Re:

How long can you keep saying Bardet is 2nd tier? He's close to getting his second podium in the race in 2 years and the previous 2 years he finished inside the top 10, has won a stage in the last 3 Tours, has performed well in the last 4 Dauphines and shown up in a couple of one day races. I guess his poor TT would be the only thing you could pick out that keeps him from being top tier.

I agree ...this idea that riders that are within seconds of Froome and his very very strong team are second tier is rubbish and anyone saying so are just full of sour grapes

Bardet, Aru and even Uran are not second tier...look around things have moved on

They are 1st tier, but I think the reason why people say they are 2nd tier is because the current 1st tier gc riders don't look as strong as the 1st tier 2 or 3 years ago.

I am not sure that is proven ? I mean do we have stats to back that up... are these climbs climbed slower than in 2015/2016 or are power outputs less ?/

2015/2016 Froome won by alot more time ...
2014 Nibali was miles ahead of the the rest ... I know Froome & Contador crashed but where is the evidence that they were better than the podium at this Tour ?...
Sure Froome may be weaker but that is reflected in the others being stronger
Contador is now weaker but that doesn't mean Bardet isn't as strong or stronger than Contador was in 2015/2016 Tour
Quintana is weaker but he was still behind Bardet last year with no Giro in his legs and he was beaten by Dumoulin this year


Seems to me the moaning is becasue the status quo has changed ...its not second tier when your idea of 1st tier are beaten or knackered

 

[Son of Amsterhammer]

Re:

What I've learnt from this tour is no rider will attempt GC at the Giro and TDF in the foreseeable future.

Agreed

 

[Valv.Piti]

Adam Yates is way worse than Simon Yates. Simon is actually a pretty aggressive racer, normally. Louis Meintjens, well, I have no comments. Leipheimer at least had a TT

 

[bob.a.feet]

Re: Re:

Two Astana riders with Aru. Has Vino given his special stuff to them.

3rd week Astana never ceases to amaze

Nibali stole the secrets of the magic third week when he left Astana

 

[durtyfat7]

Does somebody know what Dave Brailsford said after the stage concerning Landa?( I heard something like they will try to get him in the podium tomorrow( maybe let him attack) depending how he recovers tonight, not sure though

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

How long can you keep saying Bardet is 2nd tier? He's close to getting his second podium in the race in 2 years and the previous 2 years he finished inside the top 10, has won a stage in the last 3 Tours, has performed well in the last 4 Dauphines and shown up in a couple of one day races. I guess his poor TT would be the only thing you could pick out that keeps him from being top tier.

I agree ...this idea that riders that are within seconds of Froome and his very very strong team are second tier is rubbish and anyone saying so are just full of sour grapes

Bardet, Aru and even Uran are not second tier...look around things have moved on

They are 1st tier, but I think the reason why people say they are 2nd tier is because the current 1st tier gc riders don't look as strong as the 1st tier 2 or 3 years ago.

I am not sure that is proven ? I mean do we have stats to back that up... are these climbs climbed slower than in 2015/2016 or are power outputs less ?/

2015/2016 Froome won by alot more time ...
2014 Nibali was miles ahead of the the rest ... I know Froome & Contador crashed but where is the evidence that they were better than the podium at this Tour ?...
Sure Froome may be weaker but that is reflected in the others being stronger
Contador is now weaker but that doesn't mean Bardet isn't as strong or stronger than Contador was in 2015/2016 Tour
Quintana is weaker but he was still behind Bardet last year with no Giro in his legs and he was beaten by Dumoulin this year


Seems to me the moaning is becasue the status quo has changed ...its not second tier when your idea of 1st tier are beaten or knackered

Yes it is. If the highest quality GC challengers crash out, are knackered from riding the Giro, or have had a injury interrupted season, then it doesn't suddenly make the also-rans who fill 2nd-5th place first tier riders.

 

[bob.a.feet]

Re:

Adam Yates is way worse than Simon Yates. Simon is actually a pretty aggressive racer, normally. Louis Meintjens, well, I have no comments. Leipheimer at least had a TT

The new generation really suck at TT. Must be good for Dumoulin knowing that, once Froome is gone, he'll have a 3 min buffer in most GTs.

 

[This Charming Man]

Re: Re:

People overrating Landa cause his style looks effortless

This x 100.

True, but this is the tour, top favorites and animators are relegated, crashed out, etc.

 

[DanielSong39]

Based on today I don't think Landa had what it took to win the race anyway. If he felt like a million dollars he would've easily made it up the last climb.

 

[RattaKuningas]

Re:

Does somebody know what Dave Brailsford said after the stage concerning Landa?( I heard something like they will try to get him in the podium tomorrow( maybe let him attack) depending how he recovers tonight, not sure though

It's not going to happen. Bardet and Uran are stronger and I don't think that Landa can take back time from them in the TT either.

 

[Forever The Best]

Re:

Adam Yates is way worse than Simon Yates. Simon is actually a pretty aggressive racer, normally. Louis Meintjens, well, I have no comments. Leipheimer at least had a TT

This.

 

[DanielSong39]

Re: Re:

Adam Yates is way worse than Simon Yates. Simon is actually a pretty aggressive racer, normally. Louis Meintjens, well, I have no comments. Leipheimer at least had a TT

The new generation really suck at TT. Must be good for Dumoulin knowing that, once Froome is gone, he'll have a 3 min buffer in most GTs.

Either that or hope Roglic/Dennis become GC riders. Point made.

 

[staubsauger]

Re:

Adam Yates is way worse than Simon Yates. Simon is actually a pretty aggressiv e racer, normally. Louis Meintjens, well, I have no comments. Leipheimer at least had a TT

Leipheimer actually had quite a good attack as well. That was the frustrating thing about him. He absolutely got it, but was too shy to risk most times.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Being away from Gerrans makes wonders.

I was pretty obvious at the time, and it's even more glaring now, that Orica backed the wrong horse in that little dispute.

What ! Matthews got an offer too good to refuse and one which Orica couldn't match - Bear in mind I posted around April last year that Matthews was leaving, a month before it was publically announced - Matthews was hardly left out in the cold - Was one of Orica's two leaders at the 2016 TDF and was an important part of the bronze medal TT squad at the Olympics.

It was before that. The tensions were there from early 2015, when both were competing at the same races and sprinting against each other. At that point they should have gone 100% with Matthews as leader. Instead they went mostly with Gerrans and made Matthews determined to leave. Orica could have kept him if they'd have shown more faith in him earlier for sure.

i KNOW all about the tensions between Matthews and Gerrans - Every sporting team in the WORLD has tensions between different athletes - I posted that Matthews was a team leader at the 2016 TDF even after he informed Orica he was leaving for Sunweb in 2017 - Matthews was a leader at many races from 2014 to 2016 - Reckon if I am posting in April 2016 that Matthews was leaving Orica, suggests I have some idea of the internal workings - Some of the rumblings between Gerrans and Matthews were actually because of the attitude of the selectors at the 2014 and 2015 World's - When you have selectors giving Gerrans 4 support riders and Matthews three support riders you are courting disaster - And Gerrans still complains about Evans winning the 2009 World Championship when Gerrans was the alleged protected rider - And none of these events occurred under the Orica banner - At the end of the day, Matthews got an offer too good to refuse and I posted at the time that it could hurt Orica - Anyway you continue posting opinions and I'll post facts.

 

[BullsFan22]

Re: Tour de France 2017 Stage 17: La Mure > Serre-Chevalier

I think Aru may seriously crack tomorrow. If Uran is feeling good, he needs to attack, likewise Bardet (well, I think there's no doubt he'll attack). Effectively everyone except Froome would want to attack. Froome doesn't need to, unless he's feeling super and he wants a stage win. He's TT is still good enough to beat the other contenders, unless he's on an off day.

 

[Son of Amsterhammer]

Froome is the best all around rider. There can't be any debate on that. This course appears to have played quite well into his hands because of all the long descents after the last climbs. No one is willing to put in that max effort to attack him because there is little point. I'm not sure it would have made any difference in the end, but we'll get a glimpse tomorrow. The amount of riders that went out of GC contention through crashes certainly helped him too.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

What I've learnt from this tour is no rider will attempt GC at the TDF and TDF in the foreseeable future.

I assume you meant Giro and Tour.
I doubt you meant that in the future no GC riders whatsoever will attempt the Tour.
Even then, I suppose, other riders will battle for victory.

Yes It is the Giro and the TDF - It will be a while before riders try the GC double.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Matthews >>>> Gerro + Ewan

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Being away from Gerrans makes wonders.

I was pretty obvious at the time, and it's even more glaring now, that Orica backed the wrong horse in that little dispute.

What ! Matthews got an offer too good to refuse and one which Orica couldn't match - Bear in mind I posted around April last year that Matthews was leaving, a month before it was publically announced - Matthews was hardly left out in the cold - Was one of Orica's two leaders at the 2016 TDF and was an important part of the bronze medal TT squad at the Olympics.

Agree with the thrust of what you've said but your final statement should read bronze medal TTT squad at Road Worlds not Olympics.

The Gerrans issue realistically had next to nothing to do with Matthews move as Gerrans was most likely to retire at the end of this season and would not have been given any precedence over Matthews at any peak races.

Quite simply, Matthews wanted to pursue the Green Jersey and Orica were unwilling to commit to supporting that alongside their growing GC focus. His wish to try cobbles was also a factor, one that may/may not have been accomodated to some degree but Sunweb offered both as well as $$$$. Both parties probably made correct calls at the time. Matthews may well face the same issue when TomD decides to pursue the Tour and his needs run up against Bling's ..... interesting times ahead !

Good post as usual Dirk - A GC rider and green jersey rider can co-exist - Sagan has done wonderful work in the past to help his team in his quest for the green jersey - A rider like Cavendish and Kittel chasing the green jersey doesn't work because they lack the utility in hilly terrain - It depends on the rider.

 

[Monstre du Cyclisme]

Re: Re:

The new generation really suck at TT. Must be good for Dumoulin knowing that, once Froome is gone, he'll have a 3 min buffer in most GTs.

This doesn't matter at all if time trials are more or less abolished. You have Bardet, Barguil and Pinot. All of those 3 riders are possible podium contenders, none of them is really good at time trials (please stop the myth of Pinot being good in time trials). Everyone can expect what Prudhomme is going to do. Cut the time trials and include 1 fake time trial (more a prologue) at the beginning of the Tour and one short and hilly time trial at the end of the Tour. If Dumoulin managed to get 1 1/2 minute, it would be a big advantage. The success of the French climbers basically destroys all of Tom's chances to win one of the following Tours.

 

[yaco]

Re:

Adam Yates is way worse than Simon Yates. Simon is actually a pretty aggressive racer, normally. Louis Meintjens, well, I have no comments. Leipheimer at least had a TT

You are correct with your post - Ultimately Adam should prove the better GT rider - I still query Simon's ability on multi mountain stages in Gt's.