Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 207 km

[SlickMongoose]

Re: Re:

The gap Cav went for wasn't risky in the slightest. He had more than half of the road for goodness sake.

#alternativefacts

When he initially went for the gap, there was a huge amount of room. Sagan then shut the door.

 

[clbeyler]

Watch the video. Cav is leaning on him before he moves his elbow. Sagan's elbow movement was a reaction to someone pushing their head on him and didn't even touch Cav. I like both riders but neither are my favorite. I have literally watched every televised minute of every stage in the TDF for over a decade and if the call stands, I am done watching.

 

[d-s3]

Interesting podcast on other cycling web site:
http://www.velonews.com/2017/07/podcast/vn-podcast-special-sagan-tdf-disqualification-episode_442831

 

[The Hegelian]

Re:

Cant belive Demare is getting away with his wild riding.

Watching it again, he was really the one to really radically veer off his line - and he went for a gap in front of Bouhanni which totally derailed his sprint and could have easily caused a crash. By the rule book, the biggest problem was that.

To get legal/ethical: is it intention, principle or consequences that matter here? Anyone know how the judgement is made?

Sagan is getting punished because the consequences of his actions were the most severe. But by principle (i.e. of holding your line) Demare does far worse - and yet retains the win.

I'm now tempted to just say: it was just a racing incident. It was a messy, sketchy sprint. Winner takes all, chapeau, let's move on.

 

[wienerschnizzel]

Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20

I don't know where you guys see Sagan holding his line. I see him trying to switch wheels from another rider to Demare who's passing him, only to collide with Cav who's already on Demare's wheel.

 

[rata de sentina]

Re: Re:

When he initially went for the gap, there was a huge amount of room. Sagan then shut the door.

You should know better than to question the magnificence of Sagan. Cav is clearly at fault for failing to allow for the giant wingspan of Sagan. Only the other day in the middle of a sprint he was waving his foot around. What appendage will he resort to next?

 

[AQETUYIOI]

Re: Re:

To get legal/ethical: is it intention, principle or consequences that matter here? Anyone know how the judgement is made?

Sagan is getting punished because the consequences of his actions were the most severe. But by principle (i.e. of holding your line) Demare does far worse - and yet retains the win.

Punishment for murder is more severe than for attempted murder.

 

[DFA123]

I think what Sagan did was dangerous, unnecessary and those actions were deserving of a DQ; Cavendish could have been seriously injured or even killed by the incident. But, I don't understand why cycling tends to wait until the biggest races before clamping down and setting a precedent. In soccer, for example, referees usually clamp down on something new at the start of the season (jump tackles, simulation etc...)with loads of red cards and controversy, but this dies down after a few weeks and, by the time the cup finals and title deciding matches come around, everyone is generally on-board with the new precedents.

In cycling though, for some reason they wait until the Vuelta or the Tour de France before suddenly enforcing the rules strictly - rules which they've let go previously throughout the season. Harming the biggest events and generating bad publicity for the sport as a result. Seems a ridiculous way of doing things.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Cant belive Demare is getting away with his wild riding.

Watching it again, he was really the one to really radically veer off his line - and he went for a gap in front of Bouhanni which totally derailed his sprint and could have easily caused a crash. By the rule book, the biggest problem was that.

To get legal/ethical: is it intention, principle or consequences that matter here? Anyone know how the judgement is made?

Sagan is getting punished because the consequences of his actions were the most severe. But by principle (i.e. of holding your line) Demare does far worse - and yet retains the win.

I'm now tempted to just say: it was just a racing incident. It was a messy, sketchy sprint. Winner takes all, chapeau, let's move on.

I think there is a big difference between swerving a bit to overtake a slower rider in the middle of the road, and taking a diagonal line which culminated in elbowing a faster, accelerating rider into the barriers. Even if Demare did 'swerve' more, what Sagan did was clearly much more dangerous.

 

[AQETUYIOI]

Re:

Watch the video. Cav is leaning on him before he moves his elbow. Sagan's elbow movement was a reaction to someone pushing their head on him and didn't even touch Cav. I like both riders but neither are my favorite. I have literally watched every televised minute of every stage in the TDF for over a decade and if the call stands, I am done watching.

Sagan came from the left, veered into Cav on his right. :Question: "Cav is leaning on him before he moves his elbow" :Question: , when Cav has no more room on the right because of the barrier, after Sagan has cut him of, forcing him into the barrier?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0MgSNtiCI

 

[AQETUYIOI]

Re: Re:

The gap Cav went for wasn't risky in the slightest. He had more than half of the road for goodness sake.

#alternativefacts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0MgSNtiCI

 

[Tigerion]

Re: Re:

The gap Cav went for wasn't risky in the slightest. He had more than half of the road for goodness sake.

#alternativefacts

When he initially went for the gap, there was a huge amount of room. Sagan then shut the door.

From the overhead Cav is clearly on Demare's wheel. Sagan moves across to switch wheels and try to push Cav off the wheel he was on.

 

[Echoes]

Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20

The elbow not causing the crash does not make it any less dangerous. Steels throwing a bidon did not cause any crash, he was also DQ'ed and excluded because it was dangerous to say the least. Relegation for closing the door and DQ'd for the elbow, totally justified. Not saying that it's not the first time with that rider. Ask Maxime Vantomme. I know that Ghent-Wevelgem does not matter, it's just a classic that pales in comparison with the Tour of France but I guess knowledgeable people knows... He should have been DQ'ed back then but was not.

 

[Lance Armstrong]

Re: Re:

The gap Cav went for wasn't risky in the slightest. He had more than half of the road for goodness sake.

#alternativefacts

When he initially went for the gap, there was a huge amount of room. Sagan then shut the door.

From the overhead Cav is clearly on Demare's wheel. Sagan moves across to switch wheels and try to push Cav off the wheel he was on.

Where should Sagan go there?

Demare is fastest and Sagan obviously cannot go left. Decision to follow Demare is natural. Also, it's questionable if he saw that Cav's coming from behind.

 

[del1962]

Cav himself said the crash itself was a racing incident, he wanted to know why the use of the elbow though

Sagan knew he had done something wrong which we can see from his post race reaction, was this his use of the elbow he was guilty about or his blocking Cav;s line or both?

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

The gap Cav went for wasn't risky in the slightest. He had more than half of the road for goodness sake.

#alternativefacts

When he initially went for the gap, there was a huge amount of room. Sagan then shut the door.

From the overhead Cav is clearly on Demare's wheel. Sagan moves across to switch wheels and try to push Cav off the wheel he was on.

Where should Sagan go there?

Demare is fastest and Sagan obviously cannot go left. Decision to follow Demare is natural. Also, it's questionable if he saw that Cav's coming from behind.

Obviously not to the right and take a fellow cyclist out, he should maintain his line

 

[AQETUYIOI]

Re: Re:

Where should Sagan go there?

Demare is fastest and Sagan obviously cannot go left. Decision to follow Demare is natural. Also, it's questionable if he saw that Cav's coming from behind.

Straight ahead?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0MgSNtiCI

 

[spalco]

Re:

Sagan knew he had done something wrong which we can see from his post race reaction, was this his use of the elbow he was guilty about or his blocking Cav;s line or both?

That's not fair. It could have just been concern about the health of an old competitor.
An apology is not neccesarily an admission of guilt.

 

[Kopuliak]

 

[AQETUYIOI]

Re:

...

Sagan veered into Cav's line, Sagan wasn't going straight ahead.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

Re: Re:

Watch the video. Cav is leaning on him before he moves his elbow. Sagan's elbow movement was a reaction to someone pushing their head on him and didn't even touch Cav. I like both riders but neither are my favorite. I have literally watched every televised minute of every stage in the TDF for over a decade and if the call stands, I am done watching.

Sagan came from the left, veered into Cav on his right. :Question: "Cav is leaning on him before he moves his elbow" :Question: , when Cav has no more room on the right because of the barrier, after Sagan has cut him of, forcing him into the barrier?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0MgSNtiCI

It looks more like Cav leaned into Sagan in attempt to stay upright and Sagan gave him another nudge. Honestly, Sagan might not have known Cav was there, he had his elbows out the whole time and his right elbow in particular was all over the place before he got near Cav. Sprinting like that, especially near the barriers, is bound to get you DQed.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Surprised there has not been more made of the UCI race jury to change their decision. They make Decision I after reviewing all video and it seems fair enough to most neutrals. Then Dim Data team management go in to make their case and straight after comes Decision II. It seems hard to believe that Dim Data had any further evidence to provide that wasn't available when Decision I was made so what did they say or do which led to Decision II ? Another example of a conflict of interest when a team which has the son of the UCI president on its staff is making its case to a UCI jury ?

 

[SKSemtex]

Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20

I am so glad that we have so many nice sprinter stages in front of us where suddenly all these polite sprinters will keep their straight lines so nobody has to be DQ anymore.

 

[SeriousSam]

Re:

Clearly shows the elbow was extended after Cavendish came down in a mundane racing incident.

#ReinstateSagan

 

[The Principal Sheep]

Re:

Surprised there has not been more made of the UCI race jury to change their decision. They make Decision I after reviewing all video and it seems fair enough to most neutrals. Then Dim Data team management go in to make their case and straight after comes Decision II. It seems hard to believe that Dim Data had any further evidence to provide that wasn't available when Decision I was made so what did they say or do which led to Decision II ? Another example of a conflict of interest when a team which has the son of the UCI president on its staff is making its case to a UCI jury ?

Dimension Data company also Tour de France official sponsors / technology partners.