Re: Re:
I don't think he can be blamed for that. That one really wasn't his fault, Sagan himself has nowhere to go and the FDJ rider has been knocked into him. Idk.
Blanco said:
I don't think he can be blamed for that. That one really wasn't his fault, Sagan himself has nowhere to go and the FDJ rider has been knocked into him. Idk.
- Mar 13, 2009
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Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20
I don't believe Sagan did this on purpose. It looked worse than it was.
He was trying to balance himself after Cavendish already hit him. Cavendish was going through a gap that wasn't there. Because Sagan balanced himself with his elbows he hit Cavendish and knocked him down.
He deserved the punishment, but it was not intentional malice.
I don't believe Sagan did this on purpose. It looked worse than it was.
He was trying to balance himself after Cavendish already hit him. Cavendish was going through a gap that wasn't there. Because Sagan balanced himself with his elbows he hit Cavendish and knocked him down.
He deserved the punishment, but it was not intentional malice.
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Re: Re:
It clearly shows nothing. You repost that video all you want, there's nothing conclusive about it. Cav is already falling before any elbow sticks out. Sagan's sticks his elbow not to prevent Cavendish from getting through, but to balance himself because Cavendish hits him on the back trying to pass through the needle's hole.
A simple freeze would show you Cavendish falling to his right before Sagan does anything.
Walkman said:Gorecki said:Lance Armstrong said:No, it's Cav's shoulder hitting Sagan's elbow. If you look at front wheels and their shadows, both bikes are now side by side and there's no space for Mark. Sagan's elbow in a natural position.Vroome.exe said:cineteq said:This is all I needed it to see
Remember who was the guy who destroyed Haussler career?
Yep that's Sagan riding into Cav who's trying to stay upright after being pushed. And I don't remember Sagan destroying Haussler's career.
These two pictures represent what really happened the best.
In the first picture, you can clearly see Cav bumping into Sagan.
Sagans natural reaction to keep his balance is to stick out the elbow.
In the second picture you can see Cav already going down and HITTING Sagans elbow with his shoulder from behind!
I think that you have to be strongly biased against Sagan to not see this.
And keep in mind that this has happened in a second! In 60 kph.
There is a fu*king video, clearly showing what happened, but you still try to make up a story form two pictures?! Dafuq?!
Just watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4atl-3Njwg
It clearly shows nothing. You repost that video all you want, there's nothing conclusive about it. Cav is already falling before any elbow sticks out. Sagan's sticks his elbow not to prevent Cavendish from getting through, but to balance himself because Cavendish hits him on the back trying to pass through the needle's hole.
A simple freeze would show you Cavendish falling to his right before Sagan does anything.
- Jun 12, 2016
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Re: Re:
Doesn't look that way. the FDJ rider unbalanced because of touching wheels with a Lotto rider and then there was contact with SaganBlanco said:
- Jan 3, 2012
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Finally found a Slo-Mo video.
Watch this and then tell me it's not Sagan's fault!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT1naSvdZJ0
Watch this and then tell me it's not Sagan's fault!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT1naSvdZJ0
well even from this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4atl-3Njwg
it seems clear, that Cav's head goes to Peter's shoulders first and Peter only then flicks his elbow (whilst keeping his hands on the bar) ... but anyway, it's for the jury to decide ....
this was a dirty sprint by all means, nobody was keeping his line .... and the road wasn't narrow ....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4atl-3Njwg
it seems clear, that Cav's head goes to Peter's shoulders first and Peter only then flicks his elbow (whilst keeping his hands on the bar) ... but anyway, it's for the jury to decide ....
this was a dirty sprint by all means, nobody was keeping his line .... and the road wasn't narrow ....
- Jun 10, 2013
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Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20
This, omg. Some people...
He might have deserved the punishment for closing the door, but Cavendish was (yet again) reckless.
I wonder if Sagan had crashed because of Cavendish hitting him, who would be at fault? Sagan is a nice bike handler.
Dekker_Tifosi said:
This, omg. Some people...
He might have deserved the punishment for closing the door, but Cavendish was (yet again) reckless.
I wonder if Sagan had crashed because of Cavendish hitting him, who would be at fault? Sagan is a nice bike handler.
Re: Re:
This image is perfect, because it shows exactly what I saw. Cavendish was riding right up on the barrier. Demare moved to the right to pass Bouhanni and Sagan also moved right following Demare. However, while Demare had enough room to go by, Sagan only had about a half bike length on Cavendish and moved right into Cavendish's line. Cavendish actually hits Sagan first, leaning into Sagan's back/shoulder. Which seemed to be the major reason Cavendish starts to go down. The elbow comes out after contact was made and seemed to be largely about balancing. Cavendish had already struck Sagan, pushing him left, so the elbow was trying to keep stability and also to keep Sagan from crashing into Bouhanni to his left.
You can criticize Sagan for coming off his line, though so did Demare and so do most sprinters when you look at it. No one really goes perfectly straight. And here it was specifically to get around Bouhanni. And while we're at it, Demare then cuts back in front of Bouhanni and basically cuts him off. So if we're really serious about policing this stuff, how do you not penalize Demare too? It seems like we only care about the Cavendish/Sagan stuff because of the crash. Otherwise, no one really cares enough
cineteq said:This is all I needed it to see
Remember who was the guy who destroyed Haussler career?
This image is perfect, because it shows exactly what I saw. Cavendish was riding right up on the barrier. Demare moved to the right to pass Bouhanni and Sagan also moved right following Demare. However, while Demare had enough room to go by, Sagan only had about a half bike length on Cavendish and moved right into Cavendish's line. Cavendish actually hits Sagan first, leaning into Sagan's back/shoulder. Which seemed to be the major reason Cavendish starts to go down. The elbow comes out after contact was made and seemed to be largely about balancing. Cavendish had already struck Sagan, pushing him left, so the elbow was trying to keep stability and also to keep Sagan from crashing into Bouhanni to his left.
You can criticize Sagan for coming off his line, though so did Demare and so do most sprinters when you look at it. No one really goes perfectly straight. And here it was specifically to get around Bouhanni. And while we're at it, Demare then cuts back in front of Bouhanni and basically cuts him off. So if we're really serious about policing this stuff, how do you not penalize Demare too? It seems like we only care about the Cavendish/Sagan stuff because of the crash. Otherwise, no one really cares enough
- Mar 10, 2009
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Re:
No, this is a slow-mo. And it only confirms that the elbow came only after the incident: https://mobile.twitter.com/TheLegendMito21/status/882269127708221440/video/1Ruby United said:
- Nov 12, 2010
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If there was no flicking of the elbow, there would have been no penalty but Cav would still have crashed. The elbow is what makes the incident look bad
- Apr 17, 2013
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Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20
That is what it looked like, I agree. Hopefully Sagan will bounce back and win the points jersey anyway.Dekker_Tifosi said:
Re: Re:
Demare should have a penalty 100%, it's plain as day.
Jericho said:cineteq said:This is all I needed it to see
Remember who was the guy who destroyed Haussler career?
This image is perfect, because it shows exactly what I saw. Cavendish was riding right up on the barrier. Demare moved to the right to pass Bouhanni and Sagan also moved right following Demare. However, while Demare had enough room to go by, Sagan only had about a half bike length on Cavendish and moved right into Cavendish's line. Cavendish actually hits Sagan first, leaning into Sagan's back/shoulder. Which seemed to be the major reason Cavendish starts to go down. The elbow comes out after contact was made and seemed to be largely about balancing. Cavendish had already struck Sagan, pushing him left, so the elbow was trying to keep stability and also to keep Sagan from crashing into Bouhanni to his left.
You can criticize Sagan for coming off his line, though so did Demare and so do most sprinters when you look at it. No one really goes perfectly straight. And here it was specifically to get around Bouhanni. And while we're at it, Demare then cuts back in front of Bouhanni and basically cuts him off. So if we're really serious about policing this stuff, how do you not penalize Demare too? It seems like we only care about the Cavendish/Sagan stuff because of the crash. Otherwise, no one really cares enough
Demare should have a penalty 100%, it's plain as day.
Re: Re:
Demare should have a penalty 100%, it's plain as day.
Jericho said:cineteq said:This is all I needed it to see
Remember who was the guy who destroyed Haussler career?
This image is perfect, because it shows exactly what I saw. Cavendish was riding right up on the barrier. Demare moved to the right to pass Bouhanni and Sagan also moved right following Demare. However, while Demare had enough room to go by, Sagan only had about a half bike length on Cavendish and moved right into Cavendish's line. Cavendish actually hits Sagan first, leaning into Sagan's back/shoulder. Which seemed to be the major reason Cavendish starts to go down. The elbow comes out after contact was made and seemed to be largely about balancing. Cavendish had already struck Sagan, pushing him left, so the elbow was trying to keep stability and also to keep Sagan from crashing into Bouhanni to his left.
You can criticize Sagan for coming off his line, though so did Demare and so do most sprinters when you look at it. No one really goes perfectly straight. And here it was specifically to get around Bouhanni. And while we're at it, Demare then cuts back in front of Bouhanni and basically cuts him off. So if we're really serious about policing this stuff, how do you not penalize Demare too? It seems like we only care about the Cavendish/Sagan stuff because of the crash. Otherwise, no one really cares enough
Demare should have a penalty 100%, it's plain as day.
- Jun 9, 2011
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Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20
Nice way to show your bias. Please explain how Cavendish is reckless. He was right next to Sagan and they were exactly in the middle of the road, then Sagan deviated far more to the right than he needed to forcing Cav into the barriers. What was Cav supposed to do? Seriously, how is this debatable?
BigMac said:
Nice way to show your bias. Please explain how Cavendish is reckless. He was right next to Sagan and they were exactly in the middle of the road, then Sagan deviated far more to the right than he needed to forcing Cav into the barriers. What was Cav supposed to do? Seriously, how is this debatable?
Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20
Yup, that video at 0.25 speed shows it all pretty clearly:
The whole bunch swerves to the right hand side (left hand side as the video shows it) of the road after Bouhanni & Greipel make contact.
Cav is actually on the road-side (as opposed to the barriers-side) of Demare, in his wheel (as he has been for a while), with Sagan next to him. There's plenty of room for Cav to move through the same gap that has Demare moved through, providing that Sagan holds his line. But rather, Sagan veers towards the barriers and squeezes Cav in. The elbow is inconsequential; it happens after Cav has already started to fall.
As for Demare, he makes a big deviation to come around the other side of Kristoff. It certainly looks like it affects Bouhanni, but it's hard to tell from this camera angle whether Demare is already clear of Bouhanni's front wheel. We need the heli shot to confirm that.
Valv.Piti said:
Yup, that video at 0.25 speed shows it all pretty clearly:
The whole bunch swerves to the right hand side (left hand side as the video shows it) of the road after Bouhanni & Greipel make contact.
Cav is actually on the road-side (as opposed to the barriers-side) of Demare, in his wheel (as he has been for a while), with Sagan next to him. There's plenty of room for Cav to move through the same gap that has Demare moved through, providing that Sagan holds his line. But rather, Sagan veers towards the barriers and squeezes Cav in. The elbow is inconsequential; it happens after Cav has already started to fall.
As for Demare, he makes a big deviation to come around the other side of Kristoff. It certainly looks like it affects Bouhanni, but it's hard to tell from this camera angle whether Demare is already clear of Bouhanni's front wheel. We need the heli shot to confirm that.
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