Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 207 km

[Ruby United]

Re: Re:

This is all I needed it to see



Remember who was the guy who destroyed Haussler career?

This image is perfect, because it shows exactly what I saw. Cavendish was riding right up on the barrier. Demare moved to the right to pass Bouhanni and Sagan also moved right following Demare. However, while Demare had enough room to go by, Sagan only had about a half bike length on Cavendish and moved right into Cavendish's line. Cavendish actually hits Sagan first, leaning into Sagan's back/shoulder. Which seemed to be the major reason Cavendish starts to go down. The elbow comes out after contact was made and seemed to be largely about balancing. Cavendish had already struck Sagan, pushing him left, so the elbow was trying to keep stability and also to keep Sagan from crashing into Bouhanni to his left.

You can criticize Sagan for coming off his line, though so did Demare and so do most sprinters when you look at it. No one really goes perfectly straight. And here it was specifically to get around Bouhanni. And while we're at it, Demare then cuts back in front of Bouhanni and basically cuts him off. So if we're really serious about policing this stuff, how do you not penalize Demare too? It seems like we only care about the Cavendish/Sagan stuff because of the crash. Otherwise, no one really cares enough

Seriously? Have you watched this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT1naSvdZJ0

 

[Vasilis]

Cavendish was riding a straight line, Sagan was moving right. That's why they came into contact with each other, not because Cavendish was pushing Sagan with his head.

 

[Pricey_sky]

Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20

I don't believe Sagan did this on purpose. It looked worse than it was.
He was trying to balance himself after Cavendish already hit him. Cavendish was going through a gap that wasn't there. Because Sagan balanced himself with his elbows he hit Cavendish and knocked him down.

He deserved the punishment, but it was not intentional malice.

This, omg. Some people...

He might have deserved the punishment for closing the door, but Cavendish was (yet again) reckless.

I wonder if Sagan had crashed because of Cavendish hitting him, who would be at fault? Sagan is a nice bike handler.

I agree it was not intentional, however there was a gap to the side of Sagan as Demare had just passsed, that's what Cav went for but Sagan shut the door. Even when Cav was starting to move alongside Sagan there was still enough room for him to pass.

The riders touched but it was Sagans elbow that was the last factor in Cav hitting the barrier. It was dangerous and he deserved his penalties.

 

[arvc40]

Re: Re:

Sagan will have sense of guilt when he lines up tomorrow, maybe. Fines and penalties not nessicary.

Ahahahahaha

I'm guessing it works the same way for manslaughter or even murder then; they now feel bad so that's enough.

Not comparable.

 

[IndianCyclist]

from the most boring stage, suddenly this stage probably would be discussed almost endlessly

 

[carton]

Re: Re:

Now Demare gets away scott free and wins the green jersey. Nice plan ASO. :lol:

They are UCI commissaires, not ASO.

UCI and National Federation select them, no?
In any case hard to see ASO not having some influence there.

 

[KGB]

Re: Re:

This is all I needed it to see



Remember who was the guy who destroyed Haussler career?

This image is perfect, because it shows exactly what I saw. Cavendish was riding right up on the barrier. Demare moved to the right to pass Bouhanni and Sagan also moved right following Demare. However, while Demare had enough room to go by, Sagan only had about a half bike length on Cavendish and moved right into Cavendish's line. Cavendish actually hits Sagan first, leaning into Sagan's back/shoulder. Which seemed to be the major reason Cavendish starts to go down. The elbow comes out after contact was made and seemed to be largely about balancing. Cavendish had already struck Sagan, pushing him left, so the elbow was trying to keep stability and also to keep Sagan from crashing into Bouhanni to his left.

You can criticize Sagan for coming off his line, though so did Demare and so do most sprinters when you look at it. No one really goes perfectly straight. And here it was specifically to get around Bouhanni. And while we're at it, Demare then cuts back in front of Bouhanni and basically cuts him off. So if we're really serious about policing this stuff, how do you not penalize Demare too? It seems like we only care about the Cavendish/Sagan stuff because of the crash. Otherwise, no one really cares enough

Seriously? Have you watched this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT1naSvdZJ0

Yes Cav,hitting with his shoulder Sagan.Too dagerous ride by Cav..Not room to pass Sagan from that side.

 

[Screecher]

Lance defending Sagan in his live podcast.

 

[pitchnduel]

Hopefully, someone was filming separately on the nearby grassy knoll so we can figure out what really happened. "Here, you can see Cav's bike go back...and to the left; back...and to the left"

 

[Ruby United]

Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4atl-3Njwg

If you can all just watch from 0.52 - 0.56 of this video in 0.25x speed you will clearly see that Cavendish was following the barriers and Sagan moved over and elbowed him in. There's no need to complicate it, just watch the video.

Quoted for truth.

Indeed. Pretty disgusting if you ask me. Fair penalty (If what I have heard is true).

Yup, that video at 0.25 speed shows it all pretty clearly:

The whole bunch swerves to the right hand side (left hand side as the video shows it) of the road after Bouhanni & Greipel make contact.
Cav is actually on the road-side (as opposed to the barriers-side) of Demare, in his wheel (as he has been for a while), with Sagan next to him. There's plenty of room for Cav to move through the same gap that has Demare moved through, providing that Sagan holds his line. But rather, Sagan veers towards the barriers and squeezes Cav in. The elbow is inconsequential; it happens after Cav has already started to fall.

As for Demare, he makes a big deviation to come around the other side of Kristoff. It certainly looks like it affects Bouhanni, but it's hard to tell from this camera angle whether Demare is already clear of Bouhanni's front wheel. We need the heli shot to confirm that.

Could not have said it better except the elbow part. It looks to me like the elbow caused Cav to flinch sideways as otherwise it would have hit him hard, thus 'helping' him go down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT1naSvdZJ0

 

[Walkman]

Re:

Cavendish was riding a straight line, Sagan was moving right. That's why they came into contact with each other, not because Cavendish was pushing Sagan with his head.

I am actually happy that there are reasonable people in here like you.

 

[IndianCyclist]

A similar incident between Porte and Froome in the Dauphine sprint but there both riders were slower and a bit sensible

 

[deValtos]

Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20

I agree it was not intentional, however there was a gap to the side of Sagan as Demare had just passsed, that's what Cav went for but Sagan shut the door. Even when Cav was starting to move alongside Sagan there was still enough room for him to pass.

At the same time you could say that Sagan was heading to the gap on the side of Demare so he could pass him. Cavendish was simultaneously heading to the gap on the side of Sagan. I think Sagan only realised too late what was going on (since he was in front and wouldn't have seen Cav)

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4atl-3Njwg

If you can all just watch from 0.52 - 0.56 of this video in 0.25x speed you will clearly see that Cavendish was following the barriers and Sagan moved over and elbowed him in. There's no need to complicate it, just watch the video.

Quoted for truth.

Indeed. Pretty disgusting if you ask me. Fair penalty (If what I have heard is true).

Yup, that video at 0.25 speed shows it all pretty clearly:

The whole bunch swerves to the right hand side (left hand side as the video shows it) of the road after Bouhanni & Greipel make contact.
Cav is actually on the road-side (as opposed to the barriers-side) of Demare, in his wheel (as he has been for a while), with Sagan next to him. There's plenty of room for Cav to move through the same gap that has Demare moved through, providing that Sagan holds his line. But rather, Sagan veers towards the barriers and squeezes Cav in. The elbow is inconsequential; it happens after Cav has already started to fall.

As for Demare, he makes a big deviation to come around the other side of Kristoff. It certainly looks like it affects Bouhanni, but it's hard to tell from this camera angle whether Demare is already clear of Bouhanni's front wheel. We need the heli shot to confirm that.

This^

 

[Irondan]

Robbie McEwen‏Verified account @mcewenrobbie 32s33 seconds ago
More
Sagan relegated to last in group, 30 sec penalty on GC but most importantly 35 point penalty for green jersey. Plenty to talk about tmoro

Now it's 35 points?

 

[klintE]

Please explain how Cavendish is reckless.

Rio 2016. And he never get punished for this [;
https://twitter.com/i/videos/tweet/788773293679673344

 

[deValtos]

Re:

Lance defending Sagan in his live podcast.

God I hate facebook, the link he posted doesn't take me to his podcast, I assume I have to be logged in?

 

[thiscocks]

Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20

I don't believe Sagan did this on purpose. It looked worse than it was.
He was trying to balance himself after Cavendish already hit him. Cavendish was going through a gap that wasn't there. Because Sagan balanced himself with his elbows he hit Cavendish and knocked him down.

He deserved the punishment, but it was not intentional malice.

This, omg. Some people...

He might have deserved the punishment for closing the door, but Cavendish was (yet again) reckless.

I wonder if Sagan had crashed because of Cavendish hitting him, who would be at fault? Sagan is a nice bike handler.

Nice way to show your bias. Please explain how Cavendish is reckless. He was right next to Sagan and they were exactly in the middle of the road, then Sagan deviated far more to the right than he needed to forcing Cav into the barriers. What was Cav supposed to do? Seriously, how is this debatable?

He wasn't right next to him though was he? He had his front wheel about halfway up Sagans bike at best and Sagan was just following Demare. It was Cavs decision to risk going past Sagan against the barriers. You have to have a bigger frame to rough it out in sprints, Cav should remember this.

 

[MatParker117]

Apparently Sagan was:
Relegated
30 second penalty
Deducted 80 Points

 

[Jericho]

Re: Re:

Seriously? Have you watched this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT1naSvdZJ0

Seriously. I have seen that video. Opinion remains unchanged. What part don't you agree with?

 

[BigMac]

Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20

I don't believe Sagan did this on purpose. It looked worse than it was.
He was trying to balance himself after Cavendish already hit him. Cavendish was going through a gap that wasn't there. Because Sagan balanced himself with his elbows he hit Cavendish and knocked him down.

He deserved the punishment, but it was not intentional malice.

This, omg. Some people...

He might have deserved the punishment for closing the door, but Cavendish was (yet again) reckless.

I wonder if Sagan had crashed because of Cavendish hitting him, who would be at fault? Sagan is a nice bike handler.

Nice way to show your bias. Please explain how Cavendish is reckless. He was right next to Sagan and they were exactly in the middle of the road, then Sagan deviated far more to the right than he needed to forcing Cav into the barriers. What was Cav supposed to do? Seriously, how is this debatable?

I'm not biased. I couldn't care less. I like Cavendish as a sprinter, the best there ever was. But here he was reckless in the sense that he kept pushing for a gap that wasn't there. In the end he forced the contact because he was coming from behind. Once he saw things were getting too tight he shouldered Sagan, when he should have decelerated. Sagan would have been punished for closing the door and Cavendish wouldn't have nearly destroyed himself once again. It's telling how Cavendish is involved in a crash every year.

What I'm really pissed about is people saying Sagan elbowed Cavendish, when he only stuck out his elbow to regain the balance he lost due to being hit by Cavendish.

Why wasn't Cavendish punished for the deliberate shouldering of Tom Veelers 4 years ago? That one was blatant but there wasn't nearly as much outrage. Why does he always get away with being a danger on the road? If Cavendish hadn't DNF'd when he caused Gerrans to crash in 2014, I'd bet the farm he would not have been punished.

 

[Koba80]

Well, it was always going to take a lot to stop Van Keirsbulck winning "Most Agressive Rider" today....

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

The elbow, it seems, is secondary. The primary thing is from the helicopter Sagan clearly shut the door on Cavendish, accidentally likely as he was following Demare, but that's still a violation, right? So the elbow is red herring.

This is how I saw it. But, I think both issues should be addressed separately. The diagonal sprinting and shutting the door is quite clear cut. Basically a textbook failure to hold line and deserves the standard punishment of relegation in this stage. The elbow, on the other hand, is worthy of a ban and dsq from the race if deemed deliberately and/or carelessly reckless.

 

[Son of Amsterhammer]

Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20

I don't believe Sagan did this on purpose. It looked worse than it was.
He was trying to balance himself after Cavendish already hit him. Cavendish was going through a gap that wasn't there. Because Sagan balanced himself with his elbows he hit Cavendish and knocked him down.

He deserved the punishment, but it was not intentional malice.

After watching a few times, I think this is my best guess at the situation too. Really, Cav should have backed off, it was stupid to try and go through there.

 

[Dr. Watson]

Re:

Robbie McEwen‏Verified account @mcewenrobbie 32s33 seconds ago
More
Sagan relegated to last in group, 30 sec penalty on GC but most importantly 35 point penalty for green jersey. Plenty to talk about tmoro

Now it's 35 points?

In official results its still 80 points