Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 207 km

[Jagartrott]

Any news on riders injured by the crash with 1 km to go?

 

[Alexandre B.]

Enjoy Marc Madiot: https://youtu.be/yyf9OAmhm-w?t=3m10s

 

[deValtos]

Re: Re:

The elbow, it seems, is secondary. The primary thing is from the helicopter Sagan clearly shut the door on Cavendish, accidentally likely as he was following Demare, but that's still a violation, right? So the elbow is red herring.

This is how I saw it. But, I think both issues should be addressed separately. The diagonal sprinting and shutting the door is quite clear cut. Basically a textbook failure to hold line and deserves the standard punishment of relegation in this stage. The elbow, on the other hand, is worthy of a ban and dsq from the race if deemed deliberately and/or carelessly reckless.

As per any sprint though if you're in someone's wheel you can't just "hold your line" or you'll never win. At some point you have to move around the guy in front.

 

[Irondan]

Re:

Enjoy Marc Madiot: https://youtu.be/yyf9OAmhm-w?t=3m10s

Not available...

 

[Irondan]

Laura Meseguer Retweeted
Felix Mattis‏ @felixmattis 7m7 minutes ago
More
John Degenkolb just left the medical truck. No broken bones, but strong pain in the shoulder. "It will be hard days", he said. #TDF2017

 

[ToreBear]

I found this to be a good view of the events:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0MgSNtiCI

Cav was following Demare and Sagan wanted Demares wheel. So he needed to get infront of Cav.

Same situation with Greipel and Bouhanni. Bouhanni is following Kristoff and Greipel wants Kristoffs wheel as well. Bouhanni kept his position.

I find the move of Demare from Right to left almost taking out Bouhannis wheel to be the most dangerous move.

I don't know enough about the rules to say who is at fault. Demares riding looks dangerous though. Going slalom like that could take out a lot of wheels.

Oh well.

 

[Irondan]

https://www.facebook.com/lancearmstrong/videos/10156386880309778/

 

[perico]

Re:

Lance defending Sagan in his live podcast.

Well there you go. The one opinion everyone was waiting for (not that it's a bad opinion as I find the podcast quite good).

 

[kenk09]

Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20

I don't believe Sagan did this on purpose. It looked worse than it was.
He was trying to balance himself after Cavendish already hit him. Cavendish was going through a gap that wasn't there. Because Sagan balanced himself with his elbows he hit Cavendish and knocked him down.

He deserved the punishment, but it was not intentional malice.

This, omg. Some people...

He might have deserved the punishment for closing the door, but Cavendish was (yet again) reckless.

I wonder if Sagan had crashed because of Cavendish hitting him, who would be at fault? Sagan is a nice bike handler.

Nice way to show your bias. Please explain how Cavendish is reckless. He was right next to Sagan and they were exactly in the middle of the road, then Sagan deviated far more to the right than he needed to forcing Cav into the barriers. What was Cav supposed to do? Seriously, how is this debatable?

He wasn't right next to him though was he? He had his front wheel about halfway up Sagans bike at best and Sagan was just following Demare. It was Cavs decision to risk going past Sagan against the barriers. You have to have a bigger frame to rough it out in sprints, Cav should remember this.

Sagan wasn't "just following Demare". Cav was following Demare, and Sagan shut the door in order to try and follow Demare.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

The elbow, it seems, is secondary. The primary thing is from the helicopter Sagan clearly shut the door on Cavendish, accidentally likely as he was following Demare, but that's still a violation, right? So the elbow is red herring.

This is how I saw it. But, I think both issues should be addressed separately. The diagonal sprinting and shutting the door is quite clear cut. Basically a textbook failure to hold line and deserves the standard punishment of relegation in this stage. The elbow, on the other hand, is worthy of a ban and dsq from the race if deemed deliberately and/or carelessly reckless.

As per any sprint though if you're in someone's wheel you can't just "hold your line" or you'll never win. At some point you have to move around the guy in front.

Sure, but there's moving to the side to get around a rider, and there's going diagonally from the center of the road to the edge, cutting up anybody on that half of the road in the process.

If you're in a position where you need to do the latter, then you're not in a position to win the race. BEcause it's against the rules.

 

[KGB]

Re: Re:

The elbow, it seems, is secondary. The primary thing is from the helicopter Sagan clearly shut the door on Cavendish, accidentally likely as he was following Demare, but that's still a violation, right? So the elbow is red herring.

This is how I saw it. But, I think both issues should be addressed separately. The diagonal sprinting and shutting the door is quite clear cut. Basically a textbook failure to hold line and deserves the standard punishment of relegation in this stage. The elbow, on the other hand, is worthy of a ban and dsq from the race if deemed deliberately and/or carelessly reckless.

In this case there is nothing about elbow.Elbow did not cause Cav. crash.

 

[Screecher]

Lance says Sagan got DQ´d from the Tour de France.

 

[Irondan]

Daniel Benson‏ @dnlbenson 40s40 seconds ago
More
Peter Sagan out of the tour De France. DFQ

Sagan officially out of the Tour!!!!!!

 

[Walkman]

Sagan DQed!

 

[rhubroma]

Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20

I don't believe Sagan did this on purpose. It looked worse than it was.
He was trying to balance himself after Cavendish already hit him. Cavendish was going through a gap that wasn't there. Because Sagan balanced himself with his elbows he hit Cavendish and knocked him down.

He deserved the punishment, but it was not intentional malice.

This, omg. Some people...

He might have deserved the punishment for closing the door, but Cavendish was (yet again) reckless.

I wonder if Sagan had crashed because of Cavendish hitting him, who would be at fault? Sagan is a nice bike handler.

Nice way to show your bias. Please explain how Cavendish is reckless. He was right next to Sagan and they were exactly in the middle of the road, then Sagan deviated far more to the right than he needed to forcing Cav into the barriers. What was Cav supposed to do? Seriously, how is this debatable?

I'm not biased. I couldn't care less. I like Cavendish as a sprinter, the best there ever was. But here he was reckless in the sense that he kept pushing for a gap that wasn't there. In the end he forced the contact because he was coming from behind. Once he saw things were getting too tight he shouldered Sagan, when he should have decelerated. Sagan would have been punished for closing the door and Cavendish wouldn't have nearly destroyed himself once again. It's telling how Cavendish is involved in a crash every year.

What I'm really pissed about is people saying Sagan elbowed Cavendish, when he only stuck out his elbow to regain the balance he lost due to being hit by Cavendish.

Why wasn't Cavendish punished for the deliberate shouldering of Tom Veelers 4 years ago? That one was blatant but there wasn't nearly as much outrage. Why does he always get away with being a danger on the road? If Cavendish hadn't DNF'd when he caused Gerrans to crash in 2014, I'd bet the farm he would not have been punished.

The whole pretty much sums up my take, whereas the bold to a T.

 

[Irondan]

I can't believe Sagan is tossed out of the Tour..

 

[silvergrenade]

Holy fin ***!

 

[Jericho]

Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20

I don't believe Sagan did this on purpose. It looked worse than it was.
He was trying to balance himself after Cavendish already hit him. Cavendish was going through a gap that wasn't there. Because Sagan balanced himself with his elbows he hit Cavendish and knocked him down.

He deserved the punishment, but it was not intentional malice.

This, omg. Some people...

He might have deserved the punishment for closing the door, but Cavendish was (yet again) reckless.

I wonder if Sagan had crashed because of Cavendish hitting him, who would be at fault? Sagan is a nice bike handler.

Nice way to show your bias. Please explain how Cavendish is reckless. He was right next to Sagan and they were exactly in the middle of the road, then Sagan deviated far more to the right than he needed to forcing Cav into the barriers. What was Cav supposed to do? Seriously, how is this debatable?

I'm not biased. I couldn't care less. I like Cavendish as a sprinter, the best there ever was. But here he was reckless in the sense that he kept pushing for a gap that wasn't there. In the end he forced the contact because he was coming from behind. Once he saw things were getting too tight he shouldered Sagan, when he should have decelerated. Sagan would have been punished for closing the door and Cavendish wouldn't have nearly destroyed himself once again. It's telling how Cavendish is involved in a crash every year.

What I'm really pissed about is people saying Sagan elbowed Cavendish, when he only stuck out his elbow to regain the balance he lost due to being hit by Cavendish.

Why wasn't Cavendish punished for the deliberate shouldering of Tom Veelers 4 years ago? That one was blatant but there wasn't nearly as much outrage. Why does he always get away with being a danger on the road? If Cavendish hadn't DNF'd when he caused Gerrans to crash in 2014, I'd bet the farm he would not have been punished.

I basically agree with all of this. Cavendish was riding straight and Sagan came into his line, but instead of breaking, he just plows into Sagan. It didn't have to happen that way. And Sagan could have easily gone down and hit Bouhanni who could have hit others. The fact Sagan stayed up right really helps everyone here.

Now you can criticize Sagan for coming off his line, but I at least understand why he did it. He was trying to follow Demare and get around Bouhanni. I also strongly suspect Sagan didn't believe anyone else would be there on his right so close to the barriers, but I have nothing to support that claim.

The elbow is basically a non-issue to me.

 

[carton]

Ah, the one thing that will make me uncertain about my take quicker than anything bar new evidence. HWMNBN agreeing with it.

 

[MatParker117]

Been thrown out of the race, right decision that was beyond reckless.

 

[perico]

Re:

Any news on riders injured by the crash with 1 km to go?

At least two Moviestar riders were down, maybe three. Possibly 2 Orica riders involved. Thomas and maybe one other Sky rider and 1-2 NL-Lotto

 

[KGB]

Re: Tour de France 2017 stage 4: Mondorf-les-Bains-Vittel 20

I don't believe Sagan did this on purpose. It looked worse than it was.
He was trying to balance himself after Cavendish already hit him. Cavendish was going through a gap that wasn't there. Because Sagan balanced himself with his elbows he hit Cavendish and knocked him down.

He deserved the punishment, but it was not intentional malice.

This, omg. Some people...

He might have deserved the punishment for closing the door, but Cavendish was (yet again) reckless.

I wonder if Sagan had crashed because of Cavendish hitting him, who would be at fault? Sagan is a nice bike handler.

Nice way to show your bias. Please explain how Cavendish is reckless. He was right next to Sagan and they were exactly in the middle of the road, then Sagan deviated far more to the right than he needed to forcing Cav into the barriers. What was Cav supposed to do? Seriously, how is this debatable?

He wasn't right next to him though was he? He had his front wheel about halfway up Sagans bike at best and Sagan was just following Demare. It was Cavs decision to risk going past Sagan against the barriers. You have to have a bigger frame to rough it out in sprints, Cav should remember this.

Sagan wasn't "just following Demare". Cav was following Demare, and Sagan shut the door in order to try and follow Demare.

Cav.could not follow Demare because he never pass Sagan.

 

[BigMac]

Hahaha, PATHETHIC.

I'm seriously grossed out.


What the actual ***!

 

[silvergrenade]

Lance says he'll appeal. Lets see

 

[Alexandre B.]

Not sure Prudhomme is happy about that loss. UCI has balls.