Tour de France Tour de France 2021, Stage 5: Changé – Laval Espace Mayenne, 27.2 km (ITT)

[Dekker_Tifosi]

 

[Rackham]

Were not talking about WvA, but about pepole complaining Vingegaard was "made" to wait for Roglic.

The only reason WvA didn't was, that he still had a shot at yellow on the TT, which the team wanted.

In hindsight, Vingegaard would have been a better bet for that, but nobody expected him to do a TT like today.

JV had one job when Roglic crashed: protect the leader & GC.

I mean anyone who's been watching cycling over the past six months knows Vingegaard is a seriously good time trialist. He's been good all year so no today isn't "unexpected", although the fact he beat van Aert is (although WvA had an appendicitis operation recently which might explain his lack of performance).

But it's all a moot point because when Roglic crashed, JV sporting directors shouldn't be sitting in their car thinking "hmm, who's best placed for a day or two in yellow after Wednesday?". Everyone needs to get called back to protect the leader & limit his losses. I don't care whether it's WvA or Vingegaard. That's the job of a team which aims for the Tour win.

The irony is the fact so far after five days Primoz Roglic would have been better served by having someone like Sam Oomen in the Tour rather than WvA. At least everyone would work for a common goal.

 

[gregrowlerson]

However, Kwiatkokwski, Geoghegan Hart and Castroviejo, none of them poor time trialists, were all in the last 20 times.

True, but it may have also been a little due to the weather.

 

[Vesica]

That reminds me!

You know famed old actor D!ck van D yke (can't write the name without the space, the forum changes it to "lovely person") ?

He was of Dutch ancestry - and D1ck van D yke was his stage name.

Do you know what he was baptised originally?

Haha glad you edited the message, had no idea who a lovely person was. Well I know a lovely person, but whatever...

ehm, no I actually never heard of Dck van Dke. According to Wikipedia he's American. His name indeed suggest he got Dutch ancestors.

 

[hfer07]

Or sprint.

Or anything

 

[Broccolidwarf]

JV had one job when Roglic crashed: protect the leader & GC.

I mean anyone who's been watching cycling over the past six months knows Vingegaard is a seriously good time trialist. He's been good all year so no today isn't "unexpected", although the fact he beat van Aert is (although WvA had an appendicitis operation recently which might explain his lack of performance).

But it's all a moot point because when Roglic crashed, JV sporting directors shouldn't be sitting in their car thinking "hmm, who's best placed for a day or two in yellow after Wednesday?". Everyone needs to get called back to protect the leader & limit his losses. I don't care whether it's WvA or Vingegaard. That's the job of a team which aims for the Tour win.

The irony is the fact so far after five days Primoz Roglic would have been better served by having someone like Sam Oomen in the Tour rather than WvA. At least everyone would work for a common goal.

So you basically agree, that it was "unexpected" Vingegaard would beat WvA on the TT, which is why WvA was "expected" to have a better shot at yellow - exactly as I said?

As for WvA not working for a "common goal", I have no idea what you are basing that of?
Have you read anywhere that WvA refused an order - or did something contrary to team orders?

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Haha glad you edited the message, had no idea who a lovely person was. Well I know a lovely person, but whatever...

ehm, no I actually never heard of Dck van Dke. According to Wikipedia he's American. His name indeed suggest he got Dutch ancestors.

That's fine, old joke, I just needed you to get the premise.

Anyway, D!ck van D yke - was baptised:

Penis van Lesbian

 

[Rackham]

As for WvA not working for a "common goal", I have no idea what you are basing that of?
Have you read anywhere that WvA refused an order - or did something contrary to team orders?

There were no team orders we know of to send WvA back to pull for Roglic at 10km on Monday after he crashed. That's the whole point. Because there should have been.

If there were no team orders to do that, then the entire set-up was dysfunctional because nothing else mattered (certainly not WvA's dreams of yellow in the TT which was a personal ambition, not anything related to helping the team win the GC).

That means WvA most certainly didn't ride for any common JV goal on Monday (which would be winning the Tour with Roglic) & today he blew his own personal shot at glory, ergo his Tour is pointless at this juncture.

 

[jmdirt]

So you basically agree, that it was "unexpected" Vingegaard would beat WvA on the TT, which is why WvA was "expected" to have a better shot at yellow - exactly as I said?

As for WvA not working for a "common goal", I have no idea what you are basing that of?
Have you read anywhere that WvA refused an order - or did something contrary to team orders?

Actually the team already stated that they wanted WvA to stay in the front so he followed orders.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

There were no team orders we know of to send WvA back to pull for Roglic at 10km on Monday after he crashed. That's the whole point. Because there should have been.

If there were no team orders to do that, then the entire set-up was dysfunctional because nothing else mattered (certainly not WvA's dreams of yellow in the TT which was a personal ambition, not anything related to helping the team win the GC).

That means WvA most certainly didn't ride for any common JV goal on Monday (which would be winning the Tour with Roglic) & today he blew his own personal shot at glory, ergo his Tour is pointless at this juncture.

You are reading all kinds of feelings and personal decisions into this - when what I am saying is, that he simply followed orders.

You should also note, that teams can have multiple goals at a Tour.

3 days in yellow has a lot of value to a team.

 

[Pantani_lives]

Lesson of the day: Don't attach too much importance to the Slovenian national time trial championship.

 

[jmdirt]

Great ride TP!
Great ride MvdP!
Great ride PR (shocking/impressive with all of the pain!)!

 

[Breezy1985]

The sport was totally different then. Technology, diet, training, just about everything. Some climbers looked like today's sprinters..............

Guys like Ullrich and Riis looked like sprinters back then too

 

[Rackham]

You are reading all kinds of feelings and personal decisions into this - when what I am saying is, that he simply followed orders.

You should also note, that teams can have multiple goals at a Tour.

3 days in yellow has a lot of value to a team.

I totally remember who wore the yellow in week one 2011 when Evans won his Tour. Just kidding, no one cares.

...

I mean if JV really valued that, then their priorities are messed-up. From a standard GC aspiring perspective, teams aiming for the overall win actually always wanted to give up the yellow as early as possible in order to do less work. JV has even more reasons to not want yellow after their crash on Saturday (i.e. would they really ask their bloodied, bruised, cut riders like Tony Martin to control the peloton for van Aert? What a joke).

 

[Leinster]

This is what we really need

Tour de France 1947 Stage 19 (ITT) results

Tour de France 1947 Stage 19 (ITT) from Vannes to Saint-Brieuc was won by Raymond Impanis before Jean Robic and Aldo Ronconi. Pierre Brambilla was leading the general classification.

www.procyclingstats.com

Look at that battling performance from the man from West France, within 5 minutes of the imperious Belgian.

Nah, from that Tour THIS is what we need;

Tour de France 1947 Stage 21 results

Jean Robic is the winner of Tour de France 1947, before Édouard Fachleitner and Pierre Brambilla. The stage from Caen to Paris was won by Briek Schotte.

www.procyclingstats.com

The battler from Ouest-France attacks on the 257km (!!!!) final stage to Paris. I didn't even know there were enough HC mountains within 257km of Paris to launch such a daring assault.

 

[Leinster]

I totally remember who wore the yellow in week one 2011 when Evans won his Tour. Just kidding, no one cares.

...

I mean if JV really valued that, then their priorities are messed-up. From a standard GC aspiring perspective, teams aiming for the overall win actually always wanted to give up the yellow as early as possible in order to do less work. JV has even more reasons to not want yellow after their crash on Saturday (i.e. would they really ask their bloodied, bruised, cut riders like Tony Martin to control the peloton for van Aert? What a joke).

Like I pointed out the other day, at the time that J-V decided to back Wout to get his 3 days in yellow, they didn't even know Roglic would be fit to start the next day. With no Roglic in the squad, a couple of stage wins and some MJ time for their best-paid rider would be the best they could hope for from the rest of the Tour (oh, and maybe a top 10 for Vingegaard).

Now that Primoz looks to be ok, we can assume they're back to Wout riding to support him. It's even possible (in conspiracy theory terms) that vanAert might have been instructed to NOT go all-out today and NOT take the yellow, for exactly the reasons you mention. But on Monday afternoon, when Roglic was on the side of the road, there was a real chance that their chances of winning th Tour GC were gone.

 

[jmdirt]

I totally remember who wore the yellow in week one 2011 when Evans won his Tour. Just kidding, no one cares.

...

I mean if JV really valued that, then their priorities are messed-up. From a standard GC aspiring perspective, teams aiming for the overall win actually always wanted to give up the yellow as early as possible in order to do less work. JV has even more reasons to not want yellow after their crash on Saturday (i.e. would they really ask their bloodied, bruised, cut riders like Tony Martin to control the peloton for van Aert? What a joke).

It doesn't matter what you (or anyone) remember. Sponsors crave exposure while its happening. We don't remember who was up the road last year either, but while it was happening those sponsors were jacked. A big part of the value is exposure now. From a marketing standpoint only wearing the yellow kit into Paris is low. Remember, 'serious' cycling fans are already in', they are trying to get as many of the rest of the population as they can.

 

[Volderke]

I totally remember who wore the yellow in week one 2011 when Evans won his Tour. Just kidding, no one cares.

...

I mean if JV really valued that, then their priorities are messed-up. From a standard GC aspiring perspective, teams aiming for the overall win actually always wanted to give up the yellow as early as possible in order to do less work. JV has even more reasons to not want yellow after their crash on Saturday (i.e. would they really ask their bloodied, bruised, cut riders like Tony Martin to control the peloton for van Aert? What a joke).

WvA is in this Tour with 3 goals:

1. a stint in yellow, if possible combining it with a stage;
2. helping Roglic where possible;
3. preparing for the Olympics.

I don't know the priorities, but it's clear he helped Roglic (in stage 1), and it's clear when Roglic crashed, WvA was the other side of the peloton and long gone by the moment Roglic got another bike.
JV obviously told WvA to stay at the front, as it wasn't even sure just after the crash if Roglic would be a DNF. If WvA would have waited, he could have helped saving maybe 10 seconds for Roglic, as Roglic had plenty of help, first by team mates, later by a whole chasing group.

So the choice was between a potential yellow jersey for some days for WvA (and even the stage victory was a possibility, until the other crash at 4K), or 1'30" deficit for Roglic instead of 1'40".
JV made a choice, and after today's TT it's even more clear that Roglic is riding for 2nd anyway.

ps: it's also clear WvA is not in top shape. He clearly lacks a bit compared to last year. I blame his small surgery at the beginning of June. He obviously needs a lot of kms to get into top shape.

 

[Roku]

That reminds me!

You know famed old actor D!ck van D yke (can't write the name without the space, the forum changes it to "lovely person") ?

He was of Dutch ancestry - and D1ck van D yke was his stage name.

Do you know what he was baptised originally?

He is, right? I think he is still alive. He is famous for Mary Poppins, but his real masterpiece is the TV series Diagnosis Murder.

Sorry for the off Topic. On Topic - great ride by Pogi. I fear the team will not be up to the challenge.

 

[Netserk]

It doesn't matter what you (or anyone) remember. Sponsors crave exposure while its happening. We don't remember who was up the road last year either, but while it was happening those sponsors were jacked. A big part of the value is exposure now. From a marketing standpoint only wearing the yellow kit into Paris is low. Remember, 'serious' cycling fans are already in', they are trying to get as many of the rest of the population as they can.

Why didn't Jumbo-Visma ride to get the yellow jersey sooner last year?

 

[Tim Cahill]

Nah, from that Tour THIS is what we need;

Tour de France 1947 Stage 21 results

Jean Robic is the winner of Tour de France 1947, before Édouard Fachleitner and Pierre Brambilla. The stage from Caen to Paris was won by Briek Schotte.

www.procyclingstats.com

The battler from Ouest-France attacks on the 257km (!!!!) final stage to Paris. I didn't even know there were enough HC mountains within 257km of Paris to launch such a daring assault.

What the ***, I have to dig it up now, there must be some reason the Italian team lost 20 minutes and were mugged of the yellow on the last day.

Here we go, apparently it was meant to be a procession and the boy attacked from 3rd place, having "nothing to lose". They made a deal with some other team Vino style and the Italian got sick, I can only assume he was poisoned.

The Tour then had easy stages along the Mediterranean where he could recover before riding still more strongly in the Pyrenees, leading the race over the Aubisque, Tourmalet and Peyresourde on the day from Luchon to Pau. The time he gained moved him to fifth place, and the 139 km time trial to third.

It was on the last day, from Caen, that he secured the race.[10] The leader was Pierre Brambilla and tradition had it that the race leader was left unchallenged to win the Tour when it reached Paris. Robic, however, attacked at half-distance on the two-kilometre hill to the village of Bonsecours, outside Rouen. Another Frenchman, Edouard Fachleitner, went with him. So too did Brambilla, only to become sick from the effort.[11] The main field was uncertain what to do and unfavourable to Brambilla so soon after the war because he was riding for a team of Italians living in France.[4] It left the chase until too late. René de Latour wrote:

Robic had nothing to lose but his third place—end everything to gain. He jumped away as if his life depended on it. Luckily I had swapped from my car to the pillion of a motor-bike, and watched from close quarters every moment of the drama. When Robic opened a gap of a few lengths, Brambilla made a terrific effort to get back, and it seemed that was that. Then, from the bunch behind, that great rider, Fachleitner, sprinted past them both. Robic bounded on his wheel; Brambilla failed—and lost the Tour.[4]

A group of riders were ahead of Robic and Fachleitner. They had lost too much time during the month that the Tour had lasted to challenge for race victory and so Léo Veron of the French national team told Lucien Teisseire to drop back and help Fachleitner. The three joined up 100 km from the finish and Fachleitner attacked several times. Robic countered him each time and then Teisseire took over. Robic took no notice because Teisseire was no danger.[12] It was then, Fachleitner said, that Robic told him:

'Ride with me. You'll come second but I'll give you 100,000 francs'[13]

That seemed straightforward (C'était honnête) to Fachleitner, "So I rode. In my head I was thinking: 'If he cracks or if he crashes, it'll be me who wins the Tour...' But he didn't crack and he didn't crash. He paid the 100,000 francs, not to me but to the French national team [for which Fachleitner was riding], which was the rule. Which brought me another outburst from René Vietto. 'You poor fool [fada],' he said to me, 'you should have asked for a lot more! What's this going to be worth once we've shared it between us?' Right up until his death, he kept saying to me 'You didn't ask enough.'"[14]

Robic, who until then had never led the race, reached the finish at the Parc des Princes 13 minutes ahead of Brambilla.[15] The stage was so fast that it finished an hour ahead of schedule.[16] Legend has it that Brambilla buried his bike in his garden in disgust. More certain is that Robic gave his only yellow jersey to the Sainte-Anne-d'Auray basilica, where it still is, in thanks to Anne, patron saint of Bretons.

The twist to Robic's victory is that he wasn't the fastest rider in the race. Fachleitner had taken 3m 32s less to complete the Tour.[16] It was the time bonuses that Robic picked up in the Pyrenees that made the difference.

Hopefully some of the more contemporary racers can take inspiration from Robic's heroics.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

I totally remember who wore the yellow in week one 2011 when Evans won his Tour. Just kidding, no one cares.

...

I mean if JV really valued that, then their priorities are messed-up. From a standard GC aspiring perspective, teams aiming for the overall win actually always wanted to give up the yellow as early as possible in order to do less work. JV has even more reasons to not want yellow after their crash on Saturday (i.e. would they really ask their bloodied, bruised, cut riders like Tony Martin to control the peloton for van Aert? What a joke).

I don't quite know how organised you think cycling is.

When Roglic crashed, Vingegaard stopped instantly, and put Roglic on his bike, because that is his job.

There is no time for debate on the team radio or the DS weighing in - those decisions the riders make themselves, in a split second.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

That reminds me!

You know famed old actor D!ck van D yke (can't write the name without the space, the forum changes it to "lovely person") ?

He was of Dutch ancestry - and D1ck van D yke was his stage name.

Do you know what he was baptised originally?

Richard Wayne, according to Wikipedia. The name that might cause puerile giggles was a very common abbreviation/informal version of Richard until the last maybe 30 years, as was 'Willie' as a diminutive of William.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

LOL hardly any practice on the TT bike and he does that.

Imagina Pogi on a reasonable TT bike

And if he had new wheels instead of having to get second hand ones off eBay...

 

[jmdirt]

Why didn't Jumbo-Visma ride to get the yellow jersey sooner last year?

If you're asking me, you're asking the wrong person. If you're asking "figuratively" : 2020 might be a strange year to use as an example for anything. Didn't PR win an early stage (3?), and WvA win two in the first week? That's three HUGE publicity days for sponsors! PR was also just edged out by TP on stage 8 or 9 but got yellow. I'd say they were trying early and often to get results and got the yellow pretty early too.

EDIT: WARNING!! Subject to crap ars memory!