Tour de France Tour de France 2021, Stage 5: Changé – Laval Espace Mayenne, 27.2 km (ITT)

Page 32 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Toggle sidebar Toggle sidebar
Rackham

Rackham

Jul 16, 2015
5,374
13,954
23,180
Broccolidwarf said:
I don't quite know how organised you think cycling is.

When Roglic crashed, Vingegaard stopped instantly, and put Roglic on his bike, because that is his job.

There is no time for debate on the team radio or the DS weighing in - those decisions the riders make themselves, in a split second.
Click to expand...

Volderke said:
WvA is in this Tour with 3 goals:
  1. a stint in yellow, if possible combining it with a stage;
  2. helping Roglic where possible;
  3. preparing for the Olympics.
I don't know the priorities, but it's clear he helped Roglic (in stage 1), and it's clear when Roglic crashed, WvA was the other side of the peloton and long gone by the moment Roglic got another bike.
JV obviously told WvA to stay at the front, as it wasn't even sure just after the crash if Roglic would be a DNF. If WvA would have waited, he could have helped saving maybe 10 seconds for Roglic, as Roglic had plenty of help, first by team mates, later by a whole chasing group.

So the choice was between a potential yellow jersey for some days for WvA (and even the stage victory was a possibility, until the other crash at 4K), or 1'30" deficit for Roglic instead of 1'40".
JV made a choice, and after today's TT it's even more clear that Roglic is riding for 2nd anyway.

ps: it's also clear WvA is not in top shape. He clearly lacks a bit compared to last year. I blame his small surgery at the beginning of June. He obviously needs a lot of kms to get into top shape.
Click to expand...

jmdirt said:
It doesn't matter what you (or anyone) remember. Sponsors crave exposure while its happening. We don't remember who was up the road last year either, but while it was happening those sponsors were jacked. A big part of the value is exposure now. From a marketing standpoint only wearing the yellow kit into Paris is low. Remember, 'serious' cycling fans are already in', they are trying to get as many of the rest of the population as they can.
Click to expand...

Team orders are simple & have been simple since forever, especially with earpieces & the DS in the cars giving orders. When the GC favorite & number one rider in the world crashes 10km from the end in stage 3 when he's merely 1 second behind the other favorite overall, everyone on the team waits & rides for him. That would be true for any team throughout history which is serious about winning this race.

Roglic was not knocked out, he wasn't lying on the road unconscious in a certain DNF (like Jack Haig) & he got on his bike pretty fast (hence the minimal loss of time all things considered) so JV most certainly couldn't guess in the heat of the moment his GC hopes were done & choose WvA's yellow ambitions over Roglic's time loss. Having Wout van Aert sprinting by himself, riding for himself & thinking only about himself, all whilst Roglic, his teammates & Movistar were chasing desperately behind for 10km (& Roglic himself was pulling) was just straight-up batsh*t crazy tactics. This was evident on Monday & even more so today (since WvA totally failed with his own goals).

And if getting yellow for a day or so is worth more than a podium in the Tour, that's news to everyone. Face facts: backing Wout van Aert's personal ambition was a huge error of judgement & "if" Roglic loses the podium spot for a handful of seconds, the fault lies with whomever never gave the order for WvA to pull for Roglic in those final 10km on Monday afternoon. For whatever reasons.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Carrick-On-Seine
Broccolidwarf

Broccolidwarf

Mar 26, 2015
7,144
2,633
18,180
Rackham said:
Team orders are simple & have been simple since forever, especially with earpieces & the DS in the cars giving orders. When the GC favorite & number one rider in the world crashes 10km from the end in stage 3 when he's merely 1 second behind the other favorite overall, everyone on the team waits & rides for him. That would be true for any team throughout history which is serious about winning this race.

Roglic was not knocked out, he wasn't lying on the road unconscious in a certain DNF (like Jack Haig) & he got on his bike pretty fast (hence the minimal loss of time all things considered) so JV most certainly couldn't guess in the heat of the moment his GC hopes were done & choose WvA's yellow ambitions over Roglic's time loss. Having Wout van Aert sprinting by himself, riding for himself & thinking only about himself, all whilst Roglic, his teammates & Movistar were chasing desperately behind for 10km (& Roglic himself was pulling) was just straight-up batsh*t crazy tactics. This was evident on Monday & even more so today (since WvA totally failed with his own goals).

And if getting yellow for a day or so is worth more than a podium in the Tour, that's news to everyone. Face facts: backing Wout van Aert's personal ambition was a huge error of judgement & "if" Roglic loses the podium spot for a handful of seconds, the fault lies with whomever never gave the order for WvA to pull for Roglic in those final 10km on Monday afternoon. For whatever reasons.
Click to expand...

You keep wanting to give us the impression, that WvA was somehow "selfish", when all information points to the contrary. - It honestly feels like you are just a WvA hater, desperately trying to make a non-existent case.

It was - and that has been CONFIRMED by the team - a TEAM ORDER, that WvA would NOT wait if there was a crash or technical - because the TEAM had other plan for him, on that stage and the next ones.

If you disagree with that from a tactical perspective - fine - but blame the tactics on the team, not on the kid just doing what he has been told to do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Andre and jmdirt
Lequack

Lequack

Jul 10, 2014
14,990
25,986
28,180
E5KF7prXoAMnu4F
 
  • Wow
Reactions: Sandisfan
Netserk

Netserk

Apr 30, 2011
47,068
29,668
28,180
Armchair cyclist said:
Richard Wayne, according to Wikipedia. The name that might cause puerile giggles was a very common abbreviation/informal version of Richard until the last maybe 30 years, as was 'Willie' as a diminutive of William.
Click to expand...
I thought that was Bill?

Broccolidwarf said:
I don't quite know how organised you think cycling is.

When Roglic crashed, Vingegaard stopped instantly, and put Roglic on his bike, because that is his job.

There is no time for debate on the team radio or the DS weighing in - those decisions the riders make themselves, in a split second.
Click to expand...
Organised enough that they talk it over before the stage what roles the riders have.
 
Volderke

Volderke

Mar 29, 2012
3,641
5,392
19,180
Rackham said:
Roglic was not knocked out, he wasn't lying on the road unconscious in a certain DNF (like Jack Haig) & he got on his bike pretty fast (hence the minimal loss of time all things considered) so JV most certainly couldn't guess in the heat of the moment his GC hopes were done & choose WvA's yellow ambitions over Roglic's time loss.
Click to expand...

While I agree that principally, JV should have a team that is 110% committed for Roglic, we are talking about crumbles (in terms of time gain).

It took exactly 45 seconds between Roglic crashing, and him getting back onto the bike (the second the mechanic gave him a last push). He was struggling to get up to speed for the first 30 seconds he got back on the bike, checking his road rash and adjusting his clothing. He probably lost another 10 seconds there. In the end, he lost 1:21 at the finish. So when he was up to speed between 9K and the finish, he rode about 25 seconds slower than the first group on the road. How much do you think he would have gained with WvA pulling? 10 seconds? 15 seconds?
While it's now clear for you that WvA's personal ambitions (yellow) were not feasible after his subpar TT, for me it's now clear, after the TT, that those 10-15 seconds that Roglic could have potentially gained by WvA pulling in stage 3, are a small loss and largely irrelevant.
 
C

CyclistAbi

May 29, 2019
11,124
11,657
23,180
Congratulations to Tadej Pogačar for winning stage 5 TT and doing that with style.

From GC point of view things do look rather settled now. On stage 5 of the Tour. Thomas looked like he has already given up. Carapaz fighting but more or less to no avail. Roglič looks like he could still make it on a podium in some ideal scenario and was rather happy about his TT performance today. Maybe some excitement still to follow on this front.

All in all i am a bit disappointed. What a Tour edition this could be. We where promised a spat in between Roglič and Pogačar and got this crap instead. Basically all over after stage 3. They would likely be 20s apart after todays stage and some would get bonus second in one stage and one in another. They would sprint up hill, do some mano-a-mano in mountains, tactical games, then the last TT. Now this. Too bad but what can we do, nothing.

Not cool Tour i expected much more.

Anyway, Pogačar is basically in yellow already. If he can hold it on to the end then he fully deserves it. Not much else to say about it.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7gFNaGYEs8
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sandisfan
Broccolidwarf

Broccolidwarf

Mar 26, 2015
7,144
2,633
18,180
Lequack said:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15H59T15ceM
Click to expand...

Horner's perspective on stage racing, is very "American" (or old school if you will).
It's "all for the captain, on every stage, always" - like Armstrong demanded his teams worked.
Basically a king and his 7 slaves.

But modern cycling doesn't work that way. Many of the domestiques are stars in their own right today, with their own personal ambitions, that the teams needs to fulfill, or those riders will find a team that can fulfill them.

That includes being able to go all out on a GT TT, if you are Ganna, or Bissegger, or Kung, or Asgreen, or Bjerg, etc.

As for Pogacar leaving the start early, Horner doesn't know what he is talking about.
Time starts counting, when the rider leaves the ramp - it doesn't matter for his TT time, if he is a couple of seconds early or late.
The "starting countdown" is only there as a guide, to maintain an even spacing between riders starting.

I must admit, I don't know exactly how much time you can be early or late - obviously there is a limit (probably only a few seconds), which is why riders sometimes lose time by being late for the start.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Lequack
You must log in or register to reply here.

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts

Moderators online

Share this page

COMPANY
RESOURCES
FOLLOW
Top Bottom