Tour de France Tour de France 2022: Stage 15 (Rodez – Carcassonne, 202.5k)

[zlev11]

Today on Lance Armstrong's podcast The Move, George Hincapie was beside himself with anger that Primož Roglič left the team to prepare for the Vuelta. He said that the only explanation is internal team dissension because no rider (with a few hated exceptions) would ever leave a team in contention unless they simply could not go.

Any info? Any thoughts?

Hincapie is one of the dumbest people on the planet

 

[RobertCrawley]

Hincape/Armstrong have a tendency to project, Armstrong especially is unable to comprehend the idea that others may possess sensibilities and motivations different to his own and it often leads to poor analysis, as well as this, neither of them actually watch much modern cycling and it tends to show.

From the interviews it sounds like Roglic didn't actually want to leave, but the DS made the call. FDJ made Pinot ride with a bad back in 2020 and it took 18 months off his career, Roglic's contribution was diminishing returns so I doubt he'd have done much in the Pyrenees without further damage.

I'd recommend the one Brunyneel does alone with the host instead, JB2. I have my problems with Johan (guys an *** in short) but he is very knowledgeable and has excellent race perspective. If he hadn't been blacklisted I'd say he should be in the UAE or Jumbo car.

Great analysis of Armstrong. He offers great insights into the reace, but it's true he often seems to view the races from a 2006 perspective. For instance, it is beyond comprehension for him that competitive riders can be friends or even should be cordial. (He's also a 50-year-old man who often has the cap-backward mannerisms and attitudes of a 19-year-old.)

I think that's less the case with Hincapie, who maintains close connections with riders and staff of professional teams. Hincapie also owned a continental team until a couple of years ago, and his son now rides competitively. No doubt though he maintains his loyalty and admiration of Armstrong.

Yes, Johan Bruyneel is a great tactician, and even today he has an encyclopedic knowledge of the riders. I hope he weighs in on this issue on his podcast.

 

[Andre]

Hincapie is one of the dumbest people on the planet

...don't say that. I'm having dinner at his restaurant next week

 

[GroupDK]

Roglic abandon for Vuelta... sadly also got a bad spotlight with Kreuzwick's injury.
I'm a little torn on the matter, as I don't expect Roglic to make any difference at the final climbs and finals.. here its been Jonas for himself, it's more in these transport stages and the early parts of the mountain stages, where I feel he is important.
as it is here Jonas needs support and a team closing gaps, maintaining wind, and not risking peloton-breaks, and not least when UAV or other GC teams are testings the leader Jonas.. at these situations Roglic do have a certain aura in the peloton.

Roglic is the main dog on Jumbo Vista and has been it for many years, and I wouldn't be surprised if he also plays a big role in the whole atmosphere on the team - and the Jumbo team is feeling somewhat complete and potent and not like a dogs leftover meal - when we are this close to something as unique as Jumbo Vista's biggest achievement /TdF victory/ and something they so badly want, and is missing in their portfolio.
and we do have a resting day coming tomorrow, where such a big decision in speculating in the Vuelta and the extent of injury.. could be analyzed further..

It's a dream scenario for Jumbo to get this kind of GC lead on the champ Pogacar and having the yellow jersey in Tdf, at this stage in the race with such a margin
and yesterday Roglic did not look that bad and also show'ed an incentive..
If he simply ain't able to drive further.. fair enough but abandon for Vuelta speculation seems misguided at this point.. but it's likely two-tones.. partly injury & partly Vuelta-speculation, and he couldn't know that Kruzwick would be a dead dino in the race today, so yeah bummer..

 

[Pirazziattacks]

He abandoned Tour of Slovenia with covid. He was super strong last year, in the mountains too, much less so this year but that doesn't mean he's not allowed to respond to questions in interviews.

He's allowed to, but should he? I'd say not right now. Also that would make it two cooked riders UAE voluntarily brought to the Tour, bizarre.

 

[SHAD0W93]

That would be adding insult to injury!
"You fought behind a whole day after having over-heated the other day. Now, pay up!"

Oh, well... guess the Danish party is over: two days since the last stage Danish stage win, two Danes out in a day - with Fuglsang apparently also being hurt - and Vingegaard in trouble.

I don’t recall any Danes winning within the last 2 days.

 

[StryderHells]

...don't say that. I'm having dinner at his restaurant next week

Plenty of idiots have owned restaurants, I’ve worked for more than couple

 

[RedheadDane]

I don’t recall any Danes winning within the last 2 days.

Yes, exactly. Two days since the last Danish win.

 

[Red Rick]

Hincapie explained that something similar happened to him when he was in contention for a fairly important stage race (can't remember which one), and a teammate left because "his neck hurt." Hincapie says he was extremely angry then, lost by a few seconds, and has never spoken to that rider since.

Sounds like Hincapie is only marginally more likable than Lance

 

[CyclistAbi]

Hincapie explained that something similar happened to him when he was in contention for a fairly important stage race (can't remember which one), and a teammate left because "his neck hurt." Hincapie says he was extremely angry then, lost by a few seconds, and has never spoken to that rider since.

I do wonder if that other rider was totally OK with such outcome or not.

 

[Rackham]

Armstrong & Hincapie are afflicted with a complete lack of self awareness.

For them, there's no 'I' in team. But guess what? There is an I in winner. Lance was always conveniently a team player from the moment he was the one winning everything.

I'd like to see how Lance would have coped with co-leadership... wait, we had that, it's called the 2009 TdF. Just ask Contador how that one went.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Armstrong & Hincapie are afflicted with a complete lack of self awareness.

For them, there's no 'I' in team. But guess what? There is an I in winner. Lance was always conveniently a team player from the moment he was the one winning everything.

I'd like to see how Lance would have coped with co-leadership... wait, we had that, it's called the 2009 TdF. Just ask Contador how that one went.

Contador is the only cyclist who won the Tour riding against his own team. What a f**king legend!

No wonder he was so strong then, he had to!

 

[RobertCrawley]

Hincape/Armstrong have a tendency to project, Armstrong especially is unable to comprehend the idea that others may possess sensibilities and motivations different to his own and it often leads to poor analysis, as well as this, neither of them actually watch much modern cycling and it tends to show.

From the interviews it sounds like Roglic didn't actually want to leave, but the DS made the call. FDJ made Pinot ride with a bad back in 2020 and it took 18 months off his career, Roglic's contribution was diminishing returns so I doubt he'd have done much in the Pyrenees without further damage.

I'd recommend the one Brunyneel does alone with the host instead, JB2. I have my problems with Johan (guys an *** in short) but he is very knowledgeable and has excellent race perspective. If he hadn't been blacklisted I'd say he should be in the UAE or Jumbo car.

I didn't listen to all of the podcast JB2, just the part about Roglič. Bruyneel said Roglič crashed and did not feel good on a very hard edition of the Tour, but he could have finished stage 15 and then used the rest day to assess his condition. Then he could have tried the first day in the Pyrenees and abandoned then if he couldn't go. According to Bruyneel, it's the task of the team manager to keep the team together, especially since the team has the yellow jersey in the most important race of the year by far.

 

[Andre]

Plenty of idiots have owned restaurants, I’ve worked for more than couple

...ok, I will cancel my reservation

 

[Valv.Piti]

Armstrong & Hincapie are afflicted with a complete lack of self awareness.

For them, there's no 'I' in team. But guess what? There is an I in winner. Lance was always conveniently a team player from the moment he was the one winning everything.

I'd like to see how Lance would have coped with co-leadership... wait, we had that, it's called the 2009 TdF. Just ask Contador how that one went.

Hincapie was and is a super nice guy. He didnt have a problem with slaving away for Lance in 3 weeks year in year out. Everything I have ever heard about big George is positive, and I genuinely like to listen to the guy.

Not everyone affiliated with Lance are bad dudes, c'mon.

 

[Rackham]

Hincapie was and is a super nice guy. He didnt have a problem with slaving away for Lance in 3 weeks year in year out. Everything I have ever heard about big George is positive, and I genuinely like to listen to the guy.

Not everyone affiliated with Lance are bad dudes, c'mon.

I never said anything about Hincapie as a person. But his take on the Roglic story was incorrect & somewhat hypocritical considering the nature of the man he worked for in those Tours.

It's all well & good demanding utter devotion to the TdF when it's your best friend who's winning it (or someone good for your own career) but the 'team ethos' vanishes real fast when the human factor becomes complicated. Even long before Contador faced Armstrong's stubborn refusal to tolerate someone higher in the hierarchy, riders like Tyler Hamilton back in the US Postal era faced relationship complications based merely on his watts output which displeased the 'boss' in 2001.

"ride & die for the yellow jersey... insofar as it's either myself or my buddy who's wearing, otherwise f-off".

That's how I'd paraphrase the Lance Armstrong/George Hincapie school of thought, whether they realize this or not (hence why I wrote they're afflicted with "a lack of self-awareness", because my initial gut feeling is they're simply wearing blinkers when it comes to reminiscing their own approach towards the TdF).

 

[RobertCrawley]

I never said anything about Hincapie as a person. But his take on the Roglic story was incorrect & somewhat hypocritical considering the nature of the man he worked for in those Tours.

It's all well & good demanding utter devotion to the TdF when it's your best friend who's winning it (or someone good for your own career) but the 'team ethos' vanishes real fast when the human factor becomes complicated. Even long before Contador faced Armstrong's stubborn refusal to tolerate someone higher in the hierarchy, riders like Tyler Hamilton back in the US Postal era faced relationship complications based merely on his watts output which displeased the 'boss' in 2001.

"ride & die for the yellow jersey... insofar as it's either myself or my buddy who's wearing, otherwise f-off".

That's how I'd paraphrase the Lance Armstrong/George Hincapie school of thought, whether they realize this or not (hence why I wrote they're afflicted with "a lack of self-awareness", because my initial gut feeling is they're simply wearing blinkers when it comes to reminiscing their own approach towards the TdF).

George and Lance aren't the only ones who have the attitude that teams should ride or die for the yellow jersey. People on here have been severely critical of Wout Van Aert for winning or trying to win stages several days in this Tour. It's hard to argue with the success of Postal/Sky/Ineos, but there are other ways to get the job done.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Hincapie's story seems most likely to refer to the 2006 Eneco Tour, which he was leading until the last day, then lost by one second due to Stefan Schumacher picking up 4 seconds' time bonuses on the last day in controversial fashion after the two bumped into each other while sprinting for 2nd on the day; Philippe Gilbert won solo and a fan raised their arms in celebration and caught Hincapie as he was sprinting to the line. Hincapie went down but the Mekon was able to keep the bike upright and take 3rd on the day to overhaul the GC gap. Three riders (Max van Heeswijk, Jason McCartney and Matt White) climbed off on the last day. Leif Hoste was their only DNF prior to that, on the penultimate day, so would appear the most likely rider in question.

The remainder of Hincapie's races where he was close enough to the GC win for this to seem plausible are things like the Volta ao Algarve in 2002, where he was never that close to the win and made the selection on the final day that got him his high GC place, and Tirreno-Adriatico in 2005 which is the edition Óscar Freire won ahead of Alessandro Petacchi and if George thinks he was beating those guys in a bonus second fiesta he needs to re-watch more or less any sprint stage from that era.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Oh, well... guess the Danish party is over: two days since the last stage Danish stage win, two Danes out in a day - with Fuglsang apparently also being hurt - and Vingegaard in trouble.

Nooooo, I don't particularly care either way re Vingegaard and all that, but the Danish party must continue for another two weeks!

 

[yaco]

Hincapie's story seems most likely to refer to the 2006 Eneco Tour, which he was leading until the last day, then lost by one second due to Stefan Schumacher picking up 4 seconds' time bonuses on the last day in controversial fashion after the two bumped into each other while sprinting for 2nd on the day; Philippe Gilbert won solo and a fan raised their arms in celebration and caught Hincapie as he was sprinting to the line. Hincapie went down but the Mekon was able to keep the bike upright and take 3rd on the day to overhaul the GC gap. Three riders (Max van Heeswijk, Jason McCartney and Matt White) climbed off on the last day. Leif Hoste was their only DNF prior to that, on the penultimate day, so would appear the most likely rider in question.

The remainder of Hincapie's races where he was close enough to the GC win for this to seem plausible are things like the Volta ao Algarve in 2002, where he was never that close to the win and made the selection on the final day that got him his high GC place, and Tirreno-Adriatico in 2005 which is the edition Óscar Freire won ahead of Alessandro Petacchi and if George thinks he was beating those guys in a bonus second fiesta he needs to re-watch more or less any sprint stage from that era.

Hincapie was referring to Leif Hoste who claimed he had a sore neck.

 

[RedheadDane]

Nooooo, I don't particularly care either way re Vingegaard and all that, but the Danish party must continue for another two weeks!

Danish party could start again Sunday.

 

[Valv.Piti]

When you have a podcast, youre bound so say some dumb stuff at times. This was not a good look for Hincapie for sure, but he clearly was very passionate about this since he experienced something similar AND I think he's the type of guy to always do the best he can, even if hes injured. I think thats in his nature given how I have seen him race, particularly in the TdF where he had absolutely no room for personal glory apart from maybe 2006 post Lance. We can all agree that was a bad taken since everything points towards him actually wanting to continue, despite his shape getting worse by the minute. So any reasonable analysis would be that Roglic gave it his all for Vingegaard and the team and you can only applaud that, but there comes a time when its just better to quit. Most people understand that - im quite sure George does that as well after listening to Jumbo, Roglic etc. It is what it is.

 

[tobydawq]

When you have a podcast, youre bound so say some dumb stuff at times. This was not a good look for Hincapie for sure, but he clearly was very passionate about this since he experienced something similar AND I think he's the type of guy to always do the best he can, even if hes injured. I think thats in his nature given how I have seen him race, particularly in the TdF where he had absolutely no room for personal glory apart from maybe 2006 post Lance. We can all agree that was a bad taken since everything points towards him actually wanting to continue, despite his shape getting worse by the minute. So any reasonable analysis would be that Roglic gave it his all for Vingegaard and the team and you can only applaud that, but there comes a time when its just better to quit. Most people understand that - im quite sure George does that as well after listening to Jumbo, Roglic etc. It is what it is.

I'll never forget the disgusting way in which he won the Tour stage in 2005. Normally, I'm not in arms about wheelsucking but that was as horrible a case as I have ever seen, simply refusing to lift a finger the whole day and then sprinting past Pereiro on the line. Fortunately, Pereiro got somewhat of a reward the following year.

For that reason, I didn't have a problem with Garmin closing his break down just so much that he didn't get yellow when he was set to take that on stage 14 in 2009.