Tour de France Tour de France 2022: Stage 8 (Dole – Lausanne, 186.3k)

[sir fly]

The only stage where JV could've ridden smarter is that to Longwy.
And it's Van Aert who should've ridden smarter rather than JV.

Think about that stage when talking about giving away bonis to Pogačar and tactics in general.

 

[Red Rick]

"Consistent" in this context doesn't exactly work in your favor, though.

What is outrageous about thinking Van Aert can do what he wants if it's neutral for the GC leaders but his goals get sacrificed when the GC is at play.

It's also a big difference with Roglic injured, cause if he'd also sprint it would be a lot more neutral.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

So mighty Wout too strong for Pogi, who is the GC winner of the day again gaining bonus seconds over Vinge.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

What is outrageous about thinking Van Aert can do what he wants if it's neutral for the GC leaders but his goals get sacrificed when the GC is at play.

It's also a big difference with Roglic injured, cause if he'd also sprint it would be a lot more neutral.

You think him dropping back to babysit Vingegaard on the cobbles was in his best interest?

What exactly do you think would have happened differently today? You think of TJV didn't help reeling the chase in, they would have stayed in front? You don't think UAE is aware Vingegaard is slower than Pogacar? You don't think they would have been able to bring back a 2 man break on their own? And if they did, van Aert should not have won out of principle and grant Pogacar additional bonis?

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

And if those 4 seconds do matter then we're complaining in hindsight surely

Jumbo is literally the only team I've ever seen riding for bonus seconds against their own GC leader.

But Van Aert at least delivers.

Vingegaard was never going to get those points; WVA prevented Pogacar from getting more. If Roglic hadn’t crashed, they should have tried to set him up there but, alas, he did.

Jumbo Team absolutely furious with van Aert, Vingegaard in particular

Is there any evidence of this? I saw Vingegaard congratulate WVA after the stage. If they’re going to be furious, it should be at the team for their tactics, not at WVA for preventing Pogacar from securing even more time.

Didn't you watch the stage? Jumbo pulled for the entire day to make that sprint happen, knowing full well Pog would quite possibly extend his lead in GC.

The smart move was to let a large breakaway fight for the win & tell WvA to calm down & behave.

So I did not watch the whole stage, just off and on the last 100k. I didn’t realize Junbo pulled most of the day. Surely that was not just to set up Wout for a stage win. But I guess I can see it. I do agree that not pulling Roglic back after his cobbles crash was incredibly stupid, and having Wout do his joyride also made no sense, and todays tactics likely made no sense either. Wout winning did make sense given where they were at the end of the stage. They really need to NOT do something stupid like set a high pace in the Alps just to tee up Pogacar’s attack. I could see them doing it sadly but hopefully they will send Roglic on early attacks and force UAE to either burn matches or let Roglic back into the race. Ineos might do something stupid to help UAE too unfortunately. Maybe even Movistar riding for the legendary attacker, Enric Mas.

A glorified stage hunter who just so happens to to be the best bike rider in the world (or maybe 2nd) who instantly would leave if you made him slave like half of the CN forum would make him want to. On top of that, you get the stage, you get a big lead for green, you keep Wout happy etc. which will only benefit Jumbo down the road this race. 4 seconds - who cares?

I’m a Roglic fan but 100% agree with the overall point here. I disagree with him being the number 1 bike rider in the world tho. I’d have to go 1. Pogacar 2. Roglic 3. WVA 4. Alaphilipe 5. MVDP. BUT they are wayyy better with him than without and Vingegaard could very easily finish this stage with no stage wins and no yellow jersey.

I agree in so far that every second CAN matter in the end.

But I don't agree in almost all the other points:
(i) Without WvA going for the win, it is more likely than not that Pogacar would have got even more bonus seconds today.
(ii) Without WvA GC is anyway "over" (ok, too much) for Vingegaard after the cobbles.
(iii) If Vingegaard/Roglic don't have great climbing legs in week 3 (still possible), WvA at least wins Green and stages (and there it is already debatable what gets remembered more - a 2nd on GC or Green and stage wins)
(iv) WvA is so far the absolute star of this TdF with Pogacar (naive to think this is not important to the team/sponsors)
(v) Letting WvA go for his goals (upon which he delivers) probably gets him more engaged in situations where he is needed (e.g. cobbles)

Btw., I think the whole "JV is doing so bad" is a beyond absurd discussion. Vingegaard is probably the best shielded rider so far. Never in the wind, always with support. What should Pogacar say with his team?

I agree with all of this. Vingegaard has had to do almost nothing. Completely sheltered so far. Pogacar has been attacking, Roglic has had to chase alone, pull his chase group, and get bottles, Vingegaard has been chilling.

 

[Red Rick]

You think him dropping back to babysit Vingegaard on the cobbles was in his best interest?

What exactly do you think would have happened differently today? You think of TJV didn't help reeling the chase in, they would have stayed in front? You don't think UAE is aware Vingegaard is slower than Pogacar? You don't think they would have been able to bring back a 2 man break on their own? And if they did, van Aert should not have won out of principle and grant Pogacar additional bonis?

If the break gets caught anyway, why use waste Van Hooydoncks energy in the first place?

Not to mention Jumbo were part of the reasons the break that went away was this weak in the first place.

 

[Red Rick]

Vingegaard was never going to get those points; WVA prevented Pogacar from getting more. If Roglic hadn’t crashed, they should have tried to set him up there but, alas, he did.

The criticism isn't that Wout participated in the sprint, it's that Jumbo contributed to the chase and brought the break back themselves.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

The criticism isn't that Wout participated in the sprint, it's that Jumbo contributed to the chase and brought the break back themselves.

That makes sense. I don’t understand that either. A break win should have been the optimal objective for them. A stage victory is great now that it has happened, and I would argue it is worth losing 4 seconds, but at the time decisions were being made it should not have been the objective.

 

[RobertCrawley]

The criticism isn't that Wout participated in the sprint, it's that Jumbo contributed to the chase and brought the break back themselves.

A three-man break is never going to get away. Given that fact, it might make sense to toughen the race for the sprinters and other potential contenders for the stage win.

 

[Lequack]

Geraint too fat for his jersey

 

[RobertCrawley]

Geraint too fat for his jersey

That's an Ineos aerodynamic safety pin.

 

[CyclistAbi]

In my opinion it's rather pointless to discuss this from point of view people would argue about it. If the idea was to have two GC leaders to go for overall. To play the numbers game. They lost that on stage 5. Due to being totally unprepared for it. If they chose Vingegaard for overall after. In that case they more or less know Vingegaard won't win a stomp against Pogi on any terrain. In the end if it's more or less about van Aert and his chase for green. OK. But still from this point of view they made some highly questionable decisions after stage 5.

Just let it be and enjoy or don't enjoy each stage as it goes by. Don't think too much about it. It doesn't make sense anyway.

 

[Rackham]

A three-man break is never going to get away. Given that fact, it might make sense to toughen the race for the sprinters and other potential contenders for the stage win.

Kruijswijk says they planned it all from the beginning (i.e. a small breakaway they could control for the stage win for WvA): Kruijswijk ziet plan Jumbo-Visma uitkomen: "Wilden in deze rit echt voor Wout gaan" | WielerFlits

There's no improvisation here, this stage was targeted by Jumbo for a WvA win irrespective of the Pogacar situation (& added tiredness to the legs of the domestiques).

Green > yellow for Jumbo Visma, evidently. WvA is the real team captain. I wonder whether they told Roglic before the TdF though, because faced with these facts, doing the Giro might have been a better idea.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Geraint too fat for his jersey

A nice vew of his little Tummy Pidcock.

 

[red_flanders]

I wonder what Vingegaard fans are thinking. "Woohoo great! Now Jonas is further behind in GC because Van Hooydonck pulled all day to make WvA win the stage without concern for Pog grabbing more bonus seconds".

lol, what a sh*tshow.

Uh…no one in Jumbo was going to beat Pogi. WVA grabbing seconds helped Vingegaard…and his fans I guess?

I’m not pro WVA. I’m anti bad analysis.

 

[RobertCrawley]

Kruijswijk says they planned it all from the beginning (i.e. a small breakaway they could control for the stage win for WvA): Kruijswijk ziet plan Jumbo-Visma uitkomen: "Wilden in deze rit echt voor Wout gaan" | WielerFlits

There's no improvisation here, this stage was targeted by Jumbo for a WvA win irrespective of the Pogacar situation (& added tiredness to the legs of the domestiques).

Green > yellow for Jumbo Visma, evidently. WvA is the real team captain. I wonder whether they told Roglic before the TdF though, because faced with these facts, doing the Giro might have been a better idea.

The conclusion is not Green > Yellow. The conclusion is JV = Green + Maybe Yellow.

The mistake -- if it was a mistake -- is thinking Tad would not go for the stage win. He did and won four seconds. Good on him. Vinegar rode in a slipstream all day and likely did not see an ounce of headwind. He easily stayed with Tad to the end. The real fight begins tomorrow.

It makes sense to get Wout in the big break (which likely would have happened absent the crash) and get away for the win. I think most of us predicted that.

If someone is looking for a reason not to like another person, they will ALWAYS find one.

 

[KOM]

Is there any evidence of this? I saw Vingegaard congratulate WVA after the stage. If they’re going to be furious, it should be at the team for their tactics, not at WVA for preventing Pogacar from securing even more time.

No friend there isnt I was beeing sarcastic

 

[Rackham]

Uh…no one in Jumbo was going to beat Pogi. WVA grabbing seconds helped Vingegaard…and his fans I guess?

I’m not pro WVA. I’m anti bad analysis.

I think you might not understand.

The key issue is Jumbo deliberately chased the stage & dragged Pogacar towards the line because they wanted the stage win at all costs & didn't care about Pog getting the 6 or 4 second bonus.

Pogacar would never have been anywhere near those additional seconds if Jumbo hadn't deliberately wanted to filter the breakaway & make sure it could be brought back. They're literally boasting about their tactics in their post-race interviews, i.e. patting themselves on the back for a job well done according to a pre-race plan.

It's not about 'analysis' of any sort, it's literally about what happened on the road. As I said, green > yellow for Jumbo Visma, clearly.

 

[Red Rick]

Uh…no one in Jumbo was going to beat Pogi. WVA grabbing seconds helped Vingegaard…and his fans I guess?

I’m not pro WVA. I’m anti bad analysis.

By what logic do Jumbo themselves beleive they were never gonna beat Pogacar if they brougth both Roglic and Vingegaard and basically their 4 best climbers to the Tour if they were never gonna beat Pogacar anyway, all the while talking about winning the Tour de France as a team for the past ~3 years.

Also how does yesterday compute to "yes definitely no chance of winning" when only 35 seconds back on GC and near dead even on a climb that suits Pogacar better than Vingegaard.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

If the break gets caught anyway, why use waste Van Hooydoncks energy in the first place?

Not to mention Jumbo were part of the reasons the break that went away was this weak in the first place.

That's basically the only valid point. They could have had the same result without grinding Van Hooydonck. But that is a different matter from the Van Aert/Vingegaard discussion.

 

[red_flanders]

I think you might not understand.

The key issue is Jumbo deliberately chased the stage & dragged Pogacar towards the line because they wanted the stage win at all costs & didn't care about Pog getting the 6 or 4 second bonus.

Pogacar would never have been anywhere near those additional seconds if Jumbo hadn't deliberately wanted to filter the breakaway & make sure it could be brought back. They're literally boasting about their tactics in their post-race interviews, i.e. patting themselves on the back for a job well done according to a pre-race plan.

It's not about 'analysis' of any sort, it's literally about what happened on the road. As I said, green > yellow for Jumbo Visma, clearly.

I understand. Do you think Pogi wasn’t going to contest the stage win? 100% he was going to be in front to stay clean, 100% he was going to sprint to win from that position, and 100% he was going to beat anyone from JV other than Wout. Wout saved them a few bonus seconds, got another stage win for the team, and extended his already massive lead in green for almost no effort.

JV and UAE were always going to pull all day to control an easy break. All in all a very easy day out for a team who assumes they will need to control the group to further their GC aspirations.

 

[red_flanders]

By what logic do Jumbo themselves beleive they were never gonna beat Pogacar if they brougth both Roglic and Vingegaard and basically their 4 best climbers to the Tour if they were never gonna beat Pogacar anyway, all the while talking about winning the Tour de France as a team for the past ~3 years.

Also how does yesterday compute to "yes definitely no chance of winning" when only 35 seconds back on GC and near dead even on a climb that suits Pogacar better than Vingegaard.

Never going to beat him in that particular finish. Anyone can understand that yesterday was about who had the most left in the tank after an arduous, steep and hard climb, and that Vingegaard was a surprise to contest even that sprint.

They brought a team to try and beat him for the overall by beating him in the mountains. Not a huge chance of that happening but of course they will do all they can to try and beat him there. They’re well aware he’s fast and is going to give them fits at every finish.

 

[Rackham]

I understand. Do you think Pogi wasn’t going to contest the stage win? 100% he was going to be in front to stay clean, 100% he was going to sprint to win from that position, and 100% he was going to beat anyone from JV other than Wout. Wout saved them a few bonus seconds, got another stage win for the team, and extended his already massive lead in green for almost no effort.

JV and UAE were always going to pull all day to control an easy break. All in all a very easy day out for a team who assumes they will need to control the group to further their GC aspirations.

Right, I get your points, some things to consider though:

UAE lost a man through Covid last night, so they were a man down. I think that's worth considering with regards to theorizing Pogacar would get his team to work for the stage (after he already won 2 in a row).

Pogacar also isn't crazy (I assume), he knows WvA will win that sort of finish. So for UAE, I'd expect them to think "if Jumbo wants the stage, let them do the work, if not, the breakaway gets it" (or Bike Exchange pulls for Matthews).

It was a 4 second gift for Pog at the end.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Vinegar's the best!

Roglic & Vingegaard.

Salt & Vinegar.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Right, I get your points, some things to consider though:

UAE lost a man through Covid last night, so they were a man down. I think that's worth considering with regards to theorizing Pogacar would get his team to work for the stage (after he already won 2 in a row).

Pogacar also isn't crazy (I assume), he knows WvA will win that sort of finish. So for UAE, I'd expect them to think "if Jumbo wants the stage, let them do the work, if not, the breakaway gets it" (or Bike Exchange pulls for Matthews).

It was a 4 second gift for Pog at the end.

A gift he would have received regardless. But we'll know in 2 weeks. If Vingegaard loses the Tour by 4 seconds or less, this argument will end up having merrit. Let's say the opposite is true, and Vingegaard loses the Tour by 5 minutes, how ridiculous wouldn't it have been to NOT go for a stage win today?

Maybe today TJV used their common sense as opposed to a few days ago.